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Change of Subject: from Zimmerman to the larger issue

CalGun

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The only change of discussion I would like is for media to stop presenting TM as the all American hero worthy of praise and honor when in fact he was thief, user, gang banging, THUG. Once we can be honest about this kids place in the world we can have honest discussions about encouraging young people to call the police, ask for help, and be respectful of others. Until then any discussion about this case is race baiting and pathetic.
 

opendebate

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What is the point of that oped?
The point....is that continued debate over the "verdict" is utterly unproductive, unless of course your goal to have an endless street brawl. Then, by all means, bicker away. I, for one, would like to see the conversation elevated to a discussion of the larger issues this cased has touched on and are really at the heart of the whole circus anyway. Did you read this article?
 

opendebate

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It's a circular conversation because there's broad disagreement on some fundamentals. I don't think we'll ever get beyond it because it's a convergence of two incompatible cultures.
It's a circular conversation because no one is listening.
 

ecofarm

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The article cited in the OP is garbage. It presents the opposing viewpoint as the "past" or "no" argument and his viewpoint as the "future" or "yes" argument.

It's simple rhetoric, basically undisguised and really only effective regarding those in his camp (confirmation bias). Some examples:

Yes, Zimmerman benefited, perhaps greatly, from the requirement that the jury find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
Bullcrap, the prosecution had no case.

Yes, it was beyond horrible that an African-American teenager merely walking home from the convenience store was mistakenly profiled as a criminal and ended up shot to death
He was not "profiled" and he was a criminal as per the verdict - he attacked Z. He was also a criminal as per the school (vandalism, drugs) and an ongoing police investigation regarding stolen jewelry.

Yes, Zimmerman might have been found guilty if he'd been African-American
Bullcrap, the prosecution had no case.

Yes Florida's “stand your ground” law seems designed to exacerbate rather than mitigate heated confrontations
Bullcrap. People mitigate confrontations, the law does not. This is clearly blaming an object and attacking the statutes.

Yes those defending the jury's decision to acquit Zimmerman are failing to consider the historical context of discrimination and racism
Bullcrap. One is capable of defending the jury's decision while still considering historical context. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Yes , many of those expressing outrage at the verdict have plenty to be outraged about
Perhaps, but not regarding the verdict.




And pretty much every other statement in the article begins with BS and then blabbers on about the author's perspective.
 
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clownboy

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It's a circular conversation because no one is listening.
Well then, start listening. The Oped is yet another media idiot's way of keeping the ball rolling. The "Yes, but" examples are the same as you've set out here before and have been debunked from the get-go.
 

ecofarm

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FederalRepublic

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It's a circular conversation because no one is listening.
I'm listening, er, reading. I hear people talking about how Zimmerman was guilty because he should have stayed in his car. That's not just noise. That's an outlook on life that is utterly foreign to me and my culture. I would never accept that premise. What common ground is there to be found?
 

iacardsfan

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The only change of discussion I would like is for media to stop presenting TM as the all American hero worthy of praise and honor when in fact he was thief, user, gang banging, THUG. Once we can be honest about this kids place in the world we can have honest discussions about encouraging young people to call the police, ask for help, and be respectful of others. Until then any discussion about this case is race baiting and pathetic.
That's a lot of conjecture considering that chance are you never met him, spoke to him, or knew about him until you turned on the tv to Fox news and they fed you that. I'm not going to claim that TM was a perfect kid, I'm not going to claim that I knew him, I'm not going to claim TM never did anything wrong, but what I will claim is that you and I don't know the half of it. The media skewed him to best suit their political agendas. If you turn to MSNBC he is a pioneer for racial equality, and if you turn on Fox he is the devil. Instead of believing the worst of TM why don't you give him the same benefit of the doubt you gave GZ. You don't know what happened that night, you don't know about his life, all you know is his skin color and unfortunately that all you want to know. I would love to know where you got that he was a gang-banging thug. I would love to know where you got he was a thief. I would love to know where you got he was a user (using once doesn't define a user).

PS- I support the verdict in the case, I just don't like seeing people stereotyping and ripping on people that aren't here to defend themselves.
 

opendebate

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I'm listening, er, reading. I hear people talking about how Zimmerman was guilty because he should have stayed in his car. That's not just noise. That's an outlook on life that is utterly foreign to me and my culture. I would never accept that premise. What common ground is there to be found?
Did you read the article?
 

opendebate

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That's a lot of conjecture considering that chance are you never met him, spoke to him, or knew about him until you turned on the tv to Fox news and they fed you that. I'm not going to claim that TM was a perfect kid, I'm not going to claim that I knew him, I'm not going to claim TM never did anything wrong, but what I will claim is that you and I don't know the half of it. The media skewed him to best suit their political agendas. If you turn to MSNBC he is a pioneer for racial equality, and if you turn on Fox he is the devil. Instead of believing the worst of TM why don't you give him the same benefit of the doubt you gave GZ. You don't know what happened that night, you don't know about his life, all you know is his skin color and unfortunately that all you want to know. I would love to know where you got that he was a gang-banging thug. I would love to know where you got he was a thief. I would love to know where you got he was a user (using once doesn't define a user).

PS- I support the verdict in the case, I just don't like seeing people stereotyping and ripping on people that aren't here to defend themselves.
Excellent points. Especially about giving TM the same benefit of the doubt. It seems many people who are Zimmerman supporters (which just sounds ridiculous anyway) have a hard time distinguishing fact from conjecture. They also seem to really struggle with the concept of digging past their own hysteria and looking at this objectively or, God forbid, having a the tiniest amount of compassion for this boy or his family.
 

clownboy

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That's a lot of conjecture considering that chance are you never met him, spoke to him, or knew about him until you turned on the tv to Fox news and they fed you that. I'm not going to claim that TM was a perfect kid, I'm not going to claim that I knew him, I'm not going to claim TM never did anything wrong, but what I will claim is that you and I don't know the half of it. The media skewed him to best suit their political agendas. If you turn to MSNBC he is a pioneer for racial equality, and if you turn on Fox he is the devil. Instead of believing the worst of TM why don't you give him the same benefit of the doubt you gave GZ. You don't know what happened that night, you don't know about his life, all you know is his skin color and unfortunately that all you want to know. I would love to know where you got that he was a gang-banging thug. I would love to know where you got he was a thief. I would love to know where you got he was a user (using once doesn't define a user).

PS- I support the verdict in the case, I just don't like seeing people stereotyping and ripping on people that aren't here to defend themselves.
Understood, but we do know he was caught before with burglary tools and jewelry he'd couldn't account for. We also know he was on suspension for bringing pot and pipe to school.
 

iacardsfan

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Understood, but we do know he was caught before with burglary tools and jewelry he'd couldn't account for. We also know he was on suspension for bringing pot and pipe to school.
Do you know how many Americans have smoked pot once, he wasn't even caught with it, just "traces" of it? Has he been charged or proven that he stole the jewelry? Even so that doesn't make him a gang-banging thug that deserves to die.
 

Lutherf

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It is time to stop having the same circular conversation:

Change of Subject: Getting to 'Yes, but...' on the Zimmerman verdict
Sure -

Yes, we'll never know for sure what happened along that dark walkway where Zimmerman and Martin encountered one another and the fatal fight began, but no amount of speculation and accusation will ever change that.
We might not know but we have plenty of evidence which shows that they got into a fight and that Zimmerman got his ass kicked. I believe the term that was used was "whoop ass".

Yes, Zimmerman benefited, perhaps greatly, from the requirement that the jury find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but this heavy burden on the prosecution is a feature of our justice system, not a bug.
You're damned right it's a "feature". It's also a damned fine feature that speaks to the basic humanity of the design of our judicial system. The thought of verdicts by pure democratic process is more than a little bit scary.

Yes, it was beyond horrible that an African-American teenager merely walking home from the convenience store was mistakenly profiled as a criminal and ended up shot to death, but it was a freakish tragedy, not part of an ominous pattern of gun-toting neighborhood watch volunteers sallying into fatal confrontations with unarmed youths.
If Trayvon was just walking home this wouldn't have happened. He confronted Zimmerman and we know that from the testimony of the girl he was on the phone with....his own witness. If you want to have a rational conversation you need to stick to the facts.

Yes, Zimmerman might have been found guilty if he'd been African-American, but that's an argument for making sure black defendants get the same benefit of the doubt and strong defense in front of a skeptical, impartial jury that Zimmerman got, not an argument for lowering our standards of justice.
If you want to have a reasonable conversation then why even speculate along these lines? This question presupposes inequities in the system. It's one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" questions.

Yes Florida's “stand your ground” law seems designed to exacerbate rather than mitigate heated confrontations, may have helped create the climate that allowed this misunderstanding to get out of hand and should be carefully reviewed by lawmakers, but Zimmerman's defense team never invoked “stand your ground” and indeed argued that Zimmerman never had a chance to retreat once Martin attacked him. (I discussed stand your ground at length in this post)
Again, this wasn't part of the case and again it presupposes a negative interpretation of SYG.

We're not getting any more "reasonable here.

Yes those defending the jury's decision to acquit Zimmerman are failing to consider the historical context of discrimination and racism that turned this case into a cause celebre in the first place, but a criminal trial is not the venue to litigate society’s broader failings.
This trial didn't happen 60 years ago. It happened this year. The question also presupposes racial bias in the incident. If you want to discuss inequities in the system then feel free to do so but do so in relation to a case where that inequity actually applies.

Yes, Zimmerman had become a symbol for oafish racism and convicting him would have marked a symbolic victory in the struggle for justice, but the ugliest chapters in the history of our courts have been written when we’ve turned defendants into symbols and convicted them to satisfy the angry masses.
Pure hogwash. The name Emmett Till has come up many times in relation to this case and that case was unquestionably a travesty of justice but it wasn't the defendants that were turned into symbols and convicted.



I can't even go on with this. The article is a disgusting appeal to emotion and does a disservice to the justice system and to America as a whole.
 

CalGun

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What conjecture?

Fact he was into MJ use and had it in his system when he died.
Fact he had a friend who was a gang leader, and posted about his fighting prowess,
Fact he was suspended from school,
Fact he was found in school to be in possession of stolen property and burglary tools
Fact he assaulted another man who killed him

Not one conjecture. I don't even need to have met him to know he was a THUG.

And finally your bigoted comments about me and TMs race are offensive as hell. Get a life and stop posting such hatred about others to which you know nothing. That was conjecture and either prove it or apologize. I have risked my life in defense of others starting out by investigating and helping lock up 7 violent racist who still threaten me and my family today. YOU?


That's a lot of conjecture considering that chance are you never met him, spoke to him, or knew about him until you turned on the tv to Fox news and they fed you that. I'm not going to claim that TM was a perfect kid, I'm not going to claim that I knew him, I'm not going to claim TM never did anything wrong, but what I will claim is that you and I don't know the half of it. The media skewed him to best suit their political agendas. If you turn to MSNBC he is a pioneer for racial equality, and if you turn on Fox he is the devil. Instead of believing the worst of TM why don't you give him the same benefit of the doubt you gave GZ. You don't know what happened that night, you don't know about his life, all you know is his skin color and unfortunately that all you want to know. I would love to know where you got that he was a gang-banging thug. I would love to know where you got he was a thief. I would love to know where you got he was a user (using once doesn't define a user).

PS- I support the verdict in the case, I just don't like seeing people stereotyping and ripping on people that aren't here to defend themselves.
 
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opendebate

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Maybe we could talk about making the US Justice system work the same for everyone?

"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld." ~ St. Augustine of Hippo
This a very good example of a larger issue that has come to light due to the case. It is not part of the case put a legitimate complaint about how our system is currently working that can be supported by objective evidence. Worthy of discussion.
 

iacardsfan

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What conjecture?

Fact he was into MJ use and had it in his system when he died.
Fact he had a friend who was a gang leader, and posted about his fighting prowess,
Fact he was suspended from school,
Fact he was found in school to be in possession of stolen property and burglary tools
Fact he assaulted another man who killed him

Not one conjecture. I don't even need to have met him to know he was a THUG.
Fact: You have no idea how the marijuana got there, it could have been baked into a cookie or brownie that he ate unknowingly.
Fact: I have friends that have done bad things including illegal drugs, that doesn't make me a bad person. (ps the video was not of him or a friend assaulting anybody, the evidence was recanted because it was a video of two homeless people fighting over a bike)
Fact: I know somebody who once got suspended for bringing advil to school, they found TRACES of marijuana in a bag on his person, no actual marijuana, could have easily been a mistake
Fact: He was never charged and it was never proven that the jewelry was stolen, the only use for a screwdriver isn't breaking into things.
Fact: He was being followed by a man on Tamezapam (see below) and it was a dark night while he was not doing anything wrong. Nobody knows exactly who started the fight, but we know for a fact that TM ran away.

According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine, the drug is also known to cause “aggressiveness” and “hallucinations,” among other problematic symptoms.
 

CalGun

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You idiocricy knows no bounds. None of your facts relate to TM each of mine DID in fact include TM. The kid was a thug. The fact you refuse to admit it shows there is no reason for discussion or dialog. There is nothing else to overcome with you because your leftist blinders of hatred are so thick you'll never see the losers for what they are - LOSERS and THUGS. I feel sorry for his parents just like I feel sorry for Scott Peterson's parents. Any parent that raises a thug and a loser I feel bad for, but I am glad GZ was able to defend himself from such a loser human and that our society has rules and laws that protect people - who protect themselves from such THUGS.


Fact: You have no idea how the marijuana got there, it could have been baked into a cookie or brownie that he ate unknowingly.
Fact: I have friends that have done bad things including illegal drugs, that doesn't make me a bad person. (ps the video was not of him or a friend assaulting anybody, the evidence was recanted because it was a video of two homeless people fighting over a bike)
Fact: I know somebody who once got suspended for bringing advil to school, they found TRACES of marijuana in a bag on his person, no actual marijuana, could have easily been a mistake
Fact: He was never charged and it was never proven that the jewelry was stolen, the only use for a screwdriver isn't breaking into things.
Fact: He was being followed by a man on Tamezapam (see below) and it was a dark night while he was not doing anything wrong. Nobody knows exactly who started the fight, but we know for a fact that TM ran away.
 

opendebate

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What conjecture?

Fact he was into MJ use and had it in his system when he died.
Fact he had a friend who was a gang leader, and posted about his fighting prowess,
Fact he was suspended from school,
Fact he was found in school to be in possession of stolen property and burglary tools
Fact he assaulted another man who killed him

Not one conjecture. I don't even need to have met him to know he was a THUG.

And finally your bigoted comments about me and TMs race are offensive as hell. Get a life and stop posting such hatred about others to which you know nothing. That was conjecture and either prove it or apologize. I have risked my life in defense of others starting out by investigating and helping lock up 7 violent racist who still threaten me and my family today. YOU?
Definition of conjecture:
An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

The conjecture is when you leap to calling him a thug based on those "facts"

Are you saying that the lacardsfan post is bigoted?? I don't see it. Please let me know if you are referring to something else.
 

opendebate

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You idiocricy knows no bounds. None of your facts relate to TM each of mine DID in fact include TM. The kid was a thug. The fact you refuse to admit it shows there is no reason for discussion or dialog. There is nothing else to overcome with you because your leftist blinders of hatred are so thick you'll never see the losers for what they are - LOSERS and THUGS. I feel sorry for his parents just like I feel sorry for Scott Peterson's parents. Any parent that raises a thug and a loser I feel bad for, but I am glad GZ was able to defend himself from such a loser human and that our society has rules and laws that protect people - who protect themselves from such THUGS.
Who exactly is portraying themselves as the hater here...
 

CalGun

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Where i am from they don't ask about your race when you call 911? We need to teach people they can call the police
for help instead of launching into an assault on another person.

Maybe we could talk about making the US Justice system work the same for everyone?

"Charity is no substitute for justice withheld." ~ St. Augustine of Hippo
 

Psychoclown

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Fact: You have no idea how the marijuana got there, it could have been baked into a cookie or brownie that he ate unknowingly.
Fact: I have friends that have done bad things including illegal drugs, that doesn't make me a bad person. (ps the video was not of him or a friend assaulting anybody, the evidence was recanted because it was a video of two homeless people fighting over a bike)
Fact: I know somebody who once got suspended for bringing advil to school, they found TRACES of marijuana in a bag on his person, no actual marijuana, could have easily been a mistake
Fact: He was never charged and it was never proven that the jewelry was stolen, the only use for a screwdriver isn't breaking into things.
Fact: He was being followed by a man on Tamezapam (see below) and it was a dark night while he was not doing anything wrong. Nobody knows exactly who started the fight, but we know for a fact that TM ran away.
Come on now. What we know about Trayvon indicates he was not heading down a good path. One or two things might be explained away as misunderstandings/bad luck/ect, but a pretty clear pattern has emerged that indicates Trayvon was no angel. He was young and if he had lived may have been able to straighten his life out and get things back on track. I'm not going to write off a 17 year old with relatively minor issues as a lost cause, but if I were a betting man, I wouldn't have put money down on Trayvon's chances.
 
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