Can we stop ISIS?

[eohrnberger]

I'm not suggesting we should defeat ISIS. In fact I think we should abandon the middle east entirely except for Israel. My point was that we could defeat ISIS if we wanted to. Obviously, we don't want to. I'm OK with that.

Seems that we are on the same page then.

 

[cpwill]

You understand incorrectly. The underlying problem is one that would be found in any culture.

If by that you mean "hatred, inferiority complexes, cognitive dissonance, and delusions of grandeur", then sure. If we are going to throw up our hands at any policy that does not defeat those, however, we may as well stop enforcing laws and just go back to anarchy.

 

[Deuce]

I would, to protect my family, my home, my way of life, I would burn the world and not hesitate at all.

By the way the only innocent are the small still uncorrupted children. The rest are culpable.

Much like you are culpable for gang activity.

Nuking your city is therefore justified, right?

 

[PirateMk1]

Much like you are culpable for gang activity.

Nuking your city is therefore justified, right?

If it was serious enough. Yes.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

If by that you mean "hatred, inferiority complexes, cognitive dissonance, and delusions of grandeur", then sure. If we are going to throw up our hands at any policy that does not defeat those, however, we may as well stop enforcing laws and just go back to anarchy.

Well in anarchy we can round up people like Deuce and deport them, so we could solve the problem in short order.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Much like you are culpable for gang activity.

Nuking your city is therefore justified, right?

Well it would get rid of a bunch of Welfare Voters...Just saying.

 

[Deuce]

If by that you mean "hatred, inferiority complexes, cognitive dissonance, and delusions of grandeur", then sure. If we are going to throw up our hands at any policy that does not defeat those, however, we may as well stop enforcing laws and just go back to anarchy.

That, and more. As I've mentioned several times, people tend to get a bit ornery when you drop bombs on their street, their town, or their country. Both in an acute and chronic fashion, this creates more extremists.

In the short-term, when you drop a bomb on some bad guys but also kill a six year old, that child's parents now hate you. It doesn't matter to them that you killed some terrorists, or drug dealers, or whatever. You killed their child. Hell, maybe their child was fifteen and actually a part of that terrorist group. They don't care. They hate you. Their friends and family are going to hate you too. Their neighbors are going to hate you, the person who killed Bob-from-down-the-street's child.

Then there's the long-term effects. A while back I saw a young man on a talk show, from Afghanistan. He was talking about drones, and the continuous fear they generate. They'd circle overhead, all the time. A constant reminder that at any moment, the street you are on could erupt into flames. After he came to the United States, he realized something. He felt better on cloudy days. Because on cloudy days, the terror death bots in the sky wouldn't fly. (sure, some recon drones probably were still up there with IR cameras, but differentiating civilian from insurgent is harder like that so the bombs tend not to fall. and you don't actually see the drone)

Think about that for a minute. The long-term psychological damage of being afraid of sunny days. Yoda wasn't wrong. That kind of fear is going to lead to resentment and eventual hatred of those who inflict it upon you, and you really aren't going to care about their motive for torturing you this way. Now imagine it's not just one guy. It's an entire village. Most of a country, even. Not just the fear, either. Communications, power, water, airports, and other infrastructure are prime strategic targets. When we went into Iraq, that's what we were aiming at with "shock and awe," in addition to direct attacks on conventional military assets. Thing is, those are all things civilians care a great deal about. When the power goes down, the water shuts off, and the TV goes dark, you put people in a rough spot. (particularly in such a hot climate)

Your bombs kill a few terrorists here and there, but slowly the entire population becomes an easier and easier recruiting pool. That's why ISIS arose in the first place. We took out the power structure in the region, between Iraq and helping rebels in Syria, while simultaneously making life way harder for everyone in the area. Eventually things just come to a head and people start defecting to the dark side en masse.

Do you really think this is ever going to solve the problem?

Ultimately, we need to go after the disease as well as the symptoms. Want to end islamic extremism? A decent school and a clean water supply are going to go a lot farther than another two hundred million dollar fighter plane. Oh, and quit ****ing around with the internal struggles of other nations. We have this fourty-plus year history of supporting all manner of awful people because they happen to be fighting against some other douchebag we hate at the time. Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden? We're the ones who equipped and trained those people. Anyone who hated Saddam or Osama (which is to say, basically everybody)? Now America is their enemy too. And we're doing it again! We propped up this government in Iraq that nobody likes. We have armed Syrian rebels to fight Assad, rebels who are in many cases just as bad as Assad. How many times does America need to try the same thing before we decide it doesn't work? Something about definitions of insanity, I dunno.

 

[Deuce]

Well it would get rid of a bunch of Welfare Voters...Just saying.

"I'm totally ok with obliterating millions of innocent people, because they're nig poor!"

Go back to Stormfront.

 

[cpwill]

Well in anarchy we can round up people like Deuce and deport them, so we could solve the problem in short order.

No authority around to do so, and you will lack the resources.

Anarchy isn't a win for anyone.

 

[Deuce]

Well in anarchy we can round up people like Deuce and deport them, so we could solve the problem in short order.

Hah! In anarchy you'd have to come through a national guard base to get me. Best of luck, Stormfront.

 

[cpwill]

That, and more. As I've mentioned several times, people tend to get a bit ornery when you drop bombs on their street, their town, or their country. Both in an acute and chronic fashion, this creates more extremists.

That can happen. The "you create more terrorists by killing the old terrorists" meme isn't terribly accurate, but sure you'll get resistance from a random bombing campaign.

In the short-term, when you drop a bomb on some bad guys but also kill a six year old, that child's parents now hate you. It doesn't matter to them that you killed some terrorists, or drug dealers, or whatever. You killed their child. Hell, maybe their child was fifteen and actually a part of that terrorist group. They don't care. They hate you. Their friends and family are going to hate you too. Their neighbors are going to hate you, the person who killed Bob-from-down-the-street's child.

Then there's the long-term effects. A while back I saw a young man on a talk show, from Afghanistan. He was talking about drones, and the continuous fear they generate. They'd circle overhead, all the time. A constant reminder that at any moment, the street you are on could erupt into flames. After he came to the United States, he realized something. He felt better on cloudy days. Because on cloudy days, the terror death bots in the sky wouldn't fly. (sure, some recon drones probably were still up there with IR cameras, but differentiating civilian from insurgent is harder like that so the bombs tend not to fall. and you don't actually see the drone)

Think about that for a minute. The long-term psychological damage of being afraid of sunny days.

Well, I imagine it would be similar to how we used to be much more tense on cloudy or dusty days - because the enemy knew that that was when our air was restricted and so that is when we were more likely to get shot up or blown up. If that guy was a combatant :shrug: dying is part of what happens.

Communications, power, water, airports, and other infrastructure are prime strategic targets.

If we are attacking a nation-state, sure. Those strategic targets now, however, are being attacked by the insurgents.

When we went into Iraq, that's what we were aiming at with "shock and awe," in addition to direct attacks on conventional military assets. Thing is, those are all things civilians care a great deal about. When the power goes down, the water shuts off, and the TV goes dark, you put people in a rough spot. (particularly in such a hot climate)

yup.

Your bombs kill a few terrorists here and there, but slowly the entire population becomes an easier and easier recruiting pool.

Do you really think this is ever going to solve the problem?

The problem of Islamist Fundamentalism? No. But it can mitigate and eventually perhaps help solve the particular problem of ISIL, and do some damage perhaps to the problem of Islamist Fundamentalism while it's about it. No one in the Middle East wants to back the weak horse.

Ultimately, we need to go after the disease as well as the symptoms. Want to end islamic extremism? A decent school and a clean water supply are going to go a lot farther than another two hundred million dollar fighter plane.

Yeah. And two cups of tea and all that nonsense. A school and a clean water supply are useless if you don't control the terrain to the point where you can deny it to the enemy.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

No authority around to do so, and you will lack the resources.

Anarchy isn't a win for anyone.

Like mind people could get it done very easily.

 

[QuadpolarNutjob]

Want to end islamic extremism? A decent school and a clean water supply are going to go a lot farther than another two hundred million dollar fighter plane.

perhaps if Islam pulled itself out of the dark ages, Muslims could provide clean water and schools for themselves. for the time being, rather than providing clean water and schools for their children, they prefer to devote their resources to flying stolen aircraft into heavily populated buildings. so, no, forget scraping a fighter to give them water. build two more fighters, and pay for one of them with their water.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Hah! In anarchy you'd have to come through a national guard base to get me. Best of luck, Stormfront.

Model Rocket, some chemicals and some basic math is all I need.

 

[Deuce]

The problem of Islamist Fundamentalism? No. But it can mitigate and eventually perhaps help solve the particular problem of ISIL, and do some damage perhaps to the problem of Islamist Fundamentalism while it's about it. No one in the Middle East wants to back the weak horse.

Yeah. And two cups of tea and all that nonsense. A school and a clean water supply are useless if you don't control the terrain to the point where you can deny it to the enemy.

You might eliminate ISIL. And you'll just create another power vacuum that some other asshole will fill. It is useless to go after these groups if you don't also go after the reasons people become recruitable by them in the first place. Short of wiping out the entire population, you're always going to have desperate people turning to anyone who they think can help. And yes, they will perceive those fighting against the American oppressors as heroes, not terrorists.

You have to attack the disease and the symptom. And, in the end, this is something the people who live there are going to have to solve. You can't impose prosperity with bombs!

 

[Deuce]

perhaps if Islam pulled itself out of the dark ages, Muslims could provide clean water and schools for themselves. for the time being, rather than providing clean water and schools for their children, they prefer to devote their resources to flying stolen aircraft into heavily populated buildings. so, no, forget scraping a fighter to give them water. build two more fighters, and pay for one of them with their water.

Education makes those things easier, wouldn't you say? Ever notice that basically zero people with PHDs become suicide bombers?

 

[Deuce]

Model Rocket, some chemicals and some basic math is all I need.

Hahahahahahahaha. Sure buddy. Everyone's McGuyver and Rambo on the internet.

You live in a desert. You'd be dead in a week.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Hahahahahahahaha. Sure buddy. Everyone's McGuyver and Rambo on the internet.

You live in a desert. You'd be dead in a week.

I have 4 years of food and a 50,000 gallons of pool water to drink on top of solar panels, and enough hardware to hold off the Mexican army.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Education makes those things easier, wouldn't you say? Ever notice that basically zero people with PHDs become suicide bombers?

How can you educate people who kill teachers and burn down schools?

"Just give them jobs" is total crap.

 

[Deuce]

I have 4 years of food and a 50,000 gallons of pool water to drink on top of solar panels, and enough hardware to hold off the Mexican army.

Well, if there's chlorine in your pool like there should be, that pool water isn't terribly helpful. Plus, a stagnant open-air pool is going to become an issue pretty fast. Solar panels aren't going to run the city's water pumps.

How can you educate people who kill teachers and burn down schools?

You can't. Those people are too far gone. But the children still have a chance. The young adults not-yet radicalized have a chance.

"Just give them jobs" is total crap.

Nobody uttered the sentence "just give them jobs." Were you under the impression that was an actual quote? Be honest. You did think that was a direct quote, didn't you?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Well, if there's chlorine in your pool like there should be, that pool water isn't terribly helpful. Plus, a stagnant open-air pool is going to become an issue pretty fast. Solar panels aren't going to run the city's water pumps.

It is, and the panels power the home.

You can't. Those people are too far gone. But the children still have a chance. The young adults not-yet radicalized have a chance.

How do you teach them with no schools or teachers?

Nobody uttered the sentence "just give them jobs." Were you under the impression that was an actual quote? Be honest. You did think that was a direct quote, didn't you?

State Dept Spokeswoman Marie Harf: We Can?t Beat ISIS Just by Killing Them | Mediaite

 

[cpwill]

You might eliminate ISIL. And you'll just create another power vacuum that some other asshole will fill.

Yup.

It is useless to go after these groups if you don't also go after the reasons people become recruitable by them in the first place.

Psychology suggests that's not possible. Plenty of ISIL adherents are middle class kids from the West.

You have to attack the disease and the symptom. And, in the end, this is something the people who live there are going to have to solve. You can't impose prosperity with bombs!

True, you can't. All you can do with bombs is kill people.

But you have to do that.

 

[Deuce]

It is, and the panels power the home.



How do you teach them with no schools or teachers?





State Dept Spokeswoman Marie Harf: We Can?t Beat ISIS Just by Killing Them | Mediaite

Did you read that article, or watch the video? Because she doesn't use that line.

Instead, she said, we must use a combination of military force and an exploration of the reasons why so many young people keep joining up with the Islamic State to fight against the West.

Do you disagree with the above statement?

 

[Deuce]

But you have to do that.

I'm not even convinced of that. I say stay out of the region entirely. Let the locals sort it out.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Did you read that article, or watch the video? Because she doesn't use that line.


Do you disagree with the above statement?

No, I support staying out, if they strike us just drop a nuke on them.