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Can Anyone Define What a "Living Wage" is to me?

AlabamaPaul said:
No one has the resources with which to consume without first have something perceived to be of equitable value to trade for what he/she desires to consume...

See post #421...
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How about deficit spending (borrowed cash)?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Not so, as long as they, in turn, purchase foreign goods/services with their money.
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We need to go back to the trade/government posts I've made to flesh this out. If more of our ability to consume ends up in a different country (trade deficits), overall consumption in the US will necessarily decline unless the government takes up the slack...
 
Sisyphus said:
How about deficit spending (borrowed cash)?
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Borrowing is simply a promise to pay for today's desired spending based on a promise that future productive output will be able to repay the loan. What we see today is an economy growing at a rate which barely keeps up with the rate of inflation, and it's only doing so through deficit spending that props up the spending of the lower middle class and poor...
 
AlabamaPaul said:
We need to go back to the trade/government posts I've made to flesh this out. If more of our ability to consume ends up in a different country (trade deficits), overall consumption in the US will necessarily decline unless the government takes up the slack...
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It does not decline if money is spent elsewhere (off shore). It stays the same, except for the profit in the transaction, if any, which might be spent here, employ workers here, and be taxed here. Consider Walmart; you think 100% of the value chain accrues to the foreign entity (China)? Nope. Less than a dime of every Dollar.
 
AlabamaPaul said:
Borrowing is simply a promise to pay for today's desired spending based on a promise that future productive output will be able to repay the loan. What we see today is an economy growing at a rate which barely keeps up with the rate of inflation, and it's only doing so through deficit spending that props up the spending of the lower middle class and poor...
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Still buys roads from those who make them, making their asphalt "productive output."
 
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The problem is rooted in the acceptance of the American people of the belief in an oligarchy. A similar phenomenon can be observed in today's Russia. It's called the transformation into a bunch of losers......................
 
Sisyphus said:
It does not decline if money is spent elsewhere (off shore). It stays the same, except for the profit in the transaction, if any, which might be spent here, employ workers here, and be taxed here. Consider Walmart; you think 100% of the value chain accrues to the foreign entity (China)? Nope. Less than a dime of every Dollar.
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The cost of the product has already left the economy and will not be fully recovered without an offsetting trade surplus in another area or unless the government decides to replace the cost of the import...
 
AlabamaPaul said:
The cost of the product has already left the economy and will not be fully recovered without an offsetting trade surplus in another area or unless the government decides to replace the cost of the import...
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Okay; what happens if I buy a hammer for 10 cents in China and sell it for $1 in the US?
 
Sisyphus said:
Okay; what happens if I buy a hammer for 10 cents in China and sell it for $1 in the US?
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You just sent 10 cents to China. The selling price in this country does not change the net financial assets in the private sector of the US...
 
AlabamaPaul said:
Borrowing is simply a promise to pay for today's desired spending based on a promise that future productive output will be able to repay the loan. What we see today is an economy growing at a rate which barely keeps up with the rate of inflation, and it's only doing so through deficit spending that props up the spending of the lower middle class and poor...
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It occurs to me that if Bernanke has sleepless nights, this could be one of the problems keeping him awake! :mrgreen:
 
polgara said:
It occurs to me that if Bernanke has sleepless nights, this could be one of the problems keeping him awake! :mrgreen:
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I think Uncle Ben is doing all he can do. Congress spends, he just tries to finance that spending as prudently as possible...
 
AlabamaPaul said:
Borrowing is simply a promise to pay for today's desired spending based on a promise that future productive output will be able to repay the loan. What we see today is an economy growing at a rate which barely keeps up with the rate of inflation, and it's only doing so through deficit spending that props up the spending of the lower middle class and poor...
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Yep. Taxing wages and borrowing to subsidize out of wedlock childbrth - the key to our future greatness!
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep. Taxing wages and borrowing to subsidize out of wedlock childbrth - the key to our future greatness!
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It's certainly not the preferable way to oversee an economy IMV... :shock:
 
hidingrpolitics said:
I see this term thrown around all the time when it comes to minimum wage. I'm curious as to what this means.

Does living wage mean the minimum wage necessary to survive? Or is there a minimum amount of amenities one must also have such as a computer, car, television, etc.?

Minimum wage in America is more than what 90% of the rest of the world makes and even adjusting for purchasing power, living in the US is better than most of the rest of the world. I have a friend who makes less than minimum wage working for a charity and she says she gets by fine and doesn't accept food stamps because she doesn't want to set a bad example for the kids she mentors. Does this mean she is making a "living wage", or does living wage constantly change depending on a person's spending habits? And before the trolls come in and accuse me of partisanship, I am just telling a true anecdote that I understand is not proof of anything. I'd just like clarity on what criteria defines "living wage" and whether this means any less money will mean no longer living.
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Somewhere else in this thread I posted an idea for a living wage which I should have rightly called a "family support" wage.

A living wage should be one that provides a worker with "three hots and a cot" (i.e. to provide for three balanced meals and a private living space with access to at least a shower, toilet, sink, and cooking facilities), along with enough for clothing & shoes (including maintenance), basic utilities, personal hygiene, transport costs to and from work, and a little left over for personal entertainment.

It's not a "living wage" if the worker has to supplement income with food stamps or work a second job to achieve the above minimum living requirements.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
Yep. Taxing wages and borrowing to subsidize out of wedlock childbrth - the key to our future greatness!
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The bigger problems are occurring from the top down, not the bottom up..........................
 
Captain Adverse said:
Somewhere else in this thread I posted an idea for a living wage which I should have rightly called a "family support" wage.

A living wage should be one that provides a worker with "three hots and a cot" (i.e. to provide for three balanced meals and a private living space with access to at least a shower, toilet, sink, and cooking facilities), along with enough for clothing & shoes (including maintenance), basic untilities, personal hygiene, transport costs to and from work, and a little left over for personal entertainment.
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That would require excessive overpayment for those that had no responsibilities for the basic things you mention (e.g. most teenagers)...
 
AlabamaPaul said:
That would require excessive overpayment for those that had no responsibilities for the basic things you mention (e.g. most teenagers)...
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Teenagers may not personally need a "living wage" while they live with their parents. But it certainly helps if they are aiding in the support of that family.
 
AlabamaPaul said:
You just sent 10 cents to China. The selling price in this country does not change the net financial assets in the private sector of the US...
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In that transaction only. But there's a rub: how much labor is required to complete the transaction? Hammers made in the USA are great, but spendier. So fewer are bought. Hence less shelf stocking, checkout, and obviously no long shoremen. The buck creates fewer jobs, IN AMERICA!!!
 
Captain Adverse said:
Teenagers may not personally need a "living wage" while they live with their parents. But it certainly helps if they are aiding in the support of that family.
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Individuals should only expect earn enough to purchase an amount equal to the value they actually provide to the the buyer of their services. Minimum wage only tends to make it harder for those with little or no skills the ability to enter the market, especially in a time where there is already an excess of labor in some areas of the economy...
 
Sisyphus said:
In that transaction only. But there's a rub: how much labor is required to complete the transaction? Hammers made in the USA are great, but spendier. So fewer are bought. Hence less shelf stocking, checkout, and obviously no long shoremen. The buck creates fewer jobs, IN AMERICA!!!
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I'm trying to answer your questions as directly as possible. The attempt was made to put forth some ridiculous situation, and I responded appropriately. Now, if you want to move the conversation to a closed economy, we can do that...
 
AlabamaPaul said:
Individuals should only expect earn enough to purchase an amount equal to the value they actually provide to the the buyer of their services. Minimum wage only tends to make it harder for those with little or no skills the ability to enter the market, especially in a time where there is already an excess of labor in some areas of the economy...
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Thought experiment: 12 workers; 10 jobs. How does it make it harder for the 2 dweebs who will not get the job, if the 10 who do make more or less?
 
Medusa said:
atheists shouldnt think this way :lol:
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Atheists (those who do not believe in a deity) are supposed to believe life is without chance?
 
AlabamaPaul said:
Individuals should only expect earn enough to purchase an amount equal to the value they actually provide to the the buyer of their services. Minimum wage only tends to make it harder for those with little or no skills the ability to enter the market, especially in a time where there is already an excess of labor in some areas of the economy...
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I've heard that argument before. I don't buy it. Setting a minimum wage merely prevents business owners from determining the minimum amount they think they could pay and still demand maximum effort out of some poor slob desperate enough to take it. Eliminating minimum wage has no effect on the "excess of labor in some areas" because the employer will still pick whoever they think can best get the job done, regardless. They just get paid less and the employer gets more profit.
 
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