Cameron interfering with Scotland's Referendum

[alexa]

Yeh Scotland should be safe unless a descendant of Edward the Hammer takes the throne ...I'm in Scotland next month visiting family and I look forward to touching base with them about it, problem with my family is that they are all Irish Catholics so they hate England anyway! Whats the common view around you? is it 50-50 or are more in favour?

My Mum was Irish Catholic as well but for some reason she liked the UK. She claimed it was because Ireland was British when she was born. She got pissed off in later life when they would not give her a UK passport.

Everything seems SNP around my area for elections. I would guess it would be pro devo max and possibly pro Independence. I trust people really will listen to what they have to say but to be honest what we are being offered south of the border is not for Scotland. We will need to take care though that there really is a viable way forward which I am sure there is. It will also be much easier to create change with just a small population.

The other sneaky thing Salmond wants to do is to give 16 and 17 year olds a vote. They are known to be strongly in favour of Independence.

 

[alexa]

Well it was one reason Elizabeth and the Stuarts were so keen to strengthen the English and Scottish hold over it.

One interesting problem is the Shetlands. They feel themselves equally Norwegian as they are Scottish and are also quite independent minded. Most of 'Scotland's' oil is actually there's and they have been making noises about their own independence if Scotland goes. I think Salmond or the SNP might have already talked about allowing them to make their own choice, though typically and amusingly the Scottish nationalists, like so many such groups, react angrily to this sort of talk. It is like the Balkans; Bosnia and Croatia were set on being independent, but woe betide any parts of these nations which had similar feelings.

New Statesman - Independence thinking...

The Shetlands are doing very well out of the oil. I think there are about 17,000 people living there - up from a low of 11,000 before the oil and most of the newcomers are Scottish or English.

The have been told they can have independence if the want and the rights to 6 miles off shore. They don't want it. They will stay part of Scotland. You are right they have been in negotiations. Please provide your link to the angry reaction of the SNP. I don't think so. Please provide the links to them acting like the Balkans or stop these lies.

 

[Wessexman]

The Shetlands are doing very well out of the oil. I think there are about 17,000 people living there - up from a low of 11,000 before the oil and most of the newcomers are Scottish or English.

The have been told they can have independence if the want and the rights to 6 miles off shore. They don't want it. They will stay part of Scotland. You are right they have been in negotiations.

Who says they don't want it? Link please.

My understanding, from talking to Shetlanders, is they do not really consider themselves Scots. They tend to think of themselves more as Shetlanders. I think it is time that will tell which they choose.

Please provide your link to the angry reaction of the SNP. I don't think so. Please provide the links to them acting like the Balkans or stop these lies.[/QUOTE] The last time I brought it up you seemed to acting very angirly. Indeed you are being fairly angry right now. Though I suppose that is your usual demeanour with me, so I could be reading too much into it. Maybe it is just that you are an angry person. :2razz:

 

[Infinite Chaos]

My take (as a Scot, if that makes a difference) is that Cameron sees this as a win-win. He forces the issue and outraged Scots do a "Who does this Tory/English twat think he is?" kneejerk and vote "for", giving the Conservative party power in England for the forseeable future, with wee Eck and his merry band getting the blame, or he heads off independence by pushing forward the date, and "saves the union from those nasty nationalists".

Exactly, Cameron is currently in a power sharing agreement which would change immediately if Scotland's position within the union changed and all those Scottish labour seats disappeared forever. I fully think he and several Tory bigwigs have thought all the ramifications through and they are now playing Scotland at their own game. Some will probably be pushing very hard for the subsidy that goes North to be cut out completely.

You can see the plans for our military here

The Scottish Defence Force: What could it look like?

from the article: "Nuclear weapons will be banished from Scotland forever."

It won't take long before nuclear bases and military and industrial investment in Scotland start moving south.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- One interesting problem is the Shetlands. They feel themselves equally Norwegian as they are Scottish and are also quite independent minded. Most of 'Scotland's' oil is actually there's and they have been making noises about their own independence if Scotland goes. --

I was interested to read several parts of the article, " to be Scottish in Shetland was a more heinous crime even than being English!

Culturally, historically and, of course, geographically, Shetland is different from Scotland. And it has never voted SNP.,"

and

"It is no surprise then that an independence movement developed within Shetland. It saw as its models the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, as well as our closest neighbour, Faroe, an autonomous dependency of Denmark."

What if Shetland chooses to stay part of the Union / re-unite with Denmark / vote for independence? Where will Scotland's revenues come from then?

 

[PeteEU]

Funny how the media are talking about this for a few days instead of the usual problems.. hmmz what is Cameron hiding...

 

[Manc Skipper]

I was interested to read several parts of the article, " to be Scottish in Shetland was a more heinous crime even than being English!

Culturally, historically and, of course, geographically, Shetland is different from Scotland. And it has never voted SNP.,"

and

"It is no surprise then that an independence movement developed within Shetland. It saw as its models the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, as well as our closest neighbour, Faroe, an autonomous dependency of Denmark."

What if Shetland chooses to stay part of the Union / re-unite with Denmark / vote for independence? Where will Scotland's revenues come from then?

Then there's the probably apocryphal story of the Shetland farmer who ordered a sizeable piece of farm machinery. When asked in the delivery details for the nearest railway station, (remember the days of rail freight?) he named Bergen in Norway.

 

[alexa]

Who says they don't want it? Link please.

My understanding, from talking to Shetlanders, is they do not really consider themselves Scots. They tend to think of themselves more as Shetlanders. I think it is time that will tell which they choose.

My understand from checking out Shetland boards is that the Shetland people are used by people like yourself to try and create diversion and trouble and that they are now inundated with non Shetland people after their goodies. Apart from that they vary in their views but seem to want to take advantage of the situation by having more autonomy while being part of Scotland.

So quit trying to distract. I came upon one post. I used to belong to UKIP he said and then I started up the Shetland Independence whatever. No doubt an English nationalist trying to cause trouble.

The last time I brought it up you seemed to acting very angirly. Indeed you are being fairly angry right now. Though I suppose that is your usual demeanour with me, so I could be reading too much into it. Maybe it is just that you are an angry person. :2razz:

So now you believe I am Salmond? :shock: Try to think. If you irritate me, it is you I am irritated with not anyone else. You were really being very sick and dangerously aggressive suggesting that the Scottish Government was acting towards the Shetland people similarly to haw the Serbs acted in Bosnia. I had every reason to be angry at such malicious libel. You have simply shown yourself to have no integrity.

 

[Wessexman]

My understand from checking out Shetland boards is that the Shetland people are used by people like yourself to try and create diversion and trouble and that they are now inundated with non Shetland people after their goodies. Apart from that they vary in their views but seem to want to take advantage of the situation by having more autonomy while being part of Scotland.

So quit trying to distract. I came upon one post. I used to belong to UKIP he said and then I started up the Shetland Independence whatever. No doubt an English nationalist trying to cause trouble.

These passages of course don't play into the Scottish nats being annoyed and indignant at any talk of Shetland independence at all.

So now you believe I am Salmond? :shock: Try to think. If you irritate me, it is you I am irritated with not anyone else. You were really being very sick and dangerously aggressive suggesting that the Scottish Government was acting towards the Shetland people similarly to haw the Serbs acted in Bosnia. I had every reason to be angry at such malicious libel. You have simply shown yourself to have no integrity.

Yes, that is obviously the only fair reading of my comments. I couldn't possibly have just been commenting on the fact many independence groups hate the idea of people becoming independent from them. This is actually true of English nationalists. They tend to despise any talk of Cornish distinctness from the English. Now try not to mistake my comments for comparing the Scots nats to Nazis, Genghis Khan and athlete's foot, is you can manage that.

Alexa ever since I have been back here you have made one underhanded and dishonest attack after another, from my nationality to equating me to the BNP to unsupported and largely unarticulated smears on UKIP. I do not think you are in any position to lecture anyone on integrity.

 

[alexa]

These passages of course don't play into the Scottish nats being annoyed and indignant at any talk of Shetland independence at all.

I had never even heard anything about it, till you came up with it. Like I said they say it is a tactic used by those like yourself wanting to cause trouble.

Yes, that is obviously the only fair reading of my comments. I couldn't possibly have just been commenting on the fact many independence groups hate the idea of people becoming independent from them.

You were maliciously associating Scotland and the Serbs of Bosnia. You were deliberately trying to defame the integrity of Scotland, when if you actually did do a bit of proper looking you would discover that Scottish people have far more understanding of people's desire for their own right to choose than most anywhere.

You were baiting. I should have ignored you. My mistake.

This is actually true of English nationalists. They tend to despise any talk of Cornish distinctness from the English. Now try not to mistake my comments for comparing the Scots nats to Nazis, Genghis Khan and athlete's foot, is you can manage that.

Alexa ever since I have been back here you have made one underhanded and dishonest attack after another, from my nationality to equating me to the BNP to unsupported and largely unarticulated smears on UKIP. I do not think you are in any position to lecture anyone on integrity.

Here is what you said

I think Salmond or the SNP might have already talked about allowing them to make their own choice, though typically and amusingly the Scottish nationalists, like so many such groups, react angrily to this sort of talk. It is like the Balkans; Bosnia and Croatia were set on being independent, but woe betide any parts of these nations which had similar feelings.

post 25.

You so have no clue about anything. I pity you.

 

[gunner]

from the article: "Nuclear weapons will be banished from Scotland forever."

It won't take long before nuclear bases and military and industrial investment in Scotland start moving south.

Hopefully your not to far away, with that assessment. Speaking with some of the Navy guys today (Scottish guys) they are quite fearful for their jobs, and basically lambasted Salmon as a Buffoon...but a very dangerous one. Economically, for England to regain the fleet (T-class/V-class and Astute) would generate a tidy some. As i have explained previously, the surrounding economic benefit for a base-port city is quite substantial.

Paul

 

[Andalublue]

I would hate to see Scottish independence because I believe that between Scotland, the North of England and Wales, the UK retains some kind of social and political balance. Without Scotland the UK would become a much more conservative, xenophobic, jingoistic and insular nation. Someone mentioned that the North might begin agitating for greater devolution, but the North has no forum or institutions with which to promote or articulate such sentiments.

I'm not 100% sure of the stats, but I believe that, without Scotland, an election such as the 1997 landslide would be needed to deliver any kind of Labour majority. I think that having Scotland in the Union is essential to maintain the social cohesion of the entire nation. I think Britain needs Scotland more than Scotland needs Britain. A Britain totally dominated by the Southeast, with a very different set of values and attitudes from the Midlands and North is a recipes for long-term unrest and possible disintegration.

On the other hand, I think that the Scots need, and perhaps won't need any encouragement, to ignore the consequences of independence for anyone except themselves. They certainly don't need Cameron telling them what's right or wrong in the pursuit of their own future.

 

[gunner]

I would hate to see Scottish independence because I believe that between Scotland, the North of England and Wales, the UK retains some kind of social and political balance. Without Scotland the UK would become a much more conservative, xenophobic, jingoistic and insular nation. Someone mentioned that the North might begin agitating for greater devolution, but the North has no forum or institutions with which to promote or articulate such sentiments.

Andy,I understand what you mean by balance, but i think it goes much further. From the inception of devolution the various forms Scottish parliament, Welsh assembly, NI assembly have all sought, with varying degrees of success, to gain autonomy. I see that more as a desire for separation, than to provide some form of counter balance with Westminster. What i can see, and to an extent empathise with (considering I'm located in a peripheral region) is that feeling of disenfranchisement from the capital, the feeling of neglect in terms of infrastructure and government liquidity stopping at invisible regional barriers, the Watford gap springs to mind

I'm not 100% sure of the stats, but I believe that, without Scotland, an election such as the 1997 landslide would be needed to deliver any kind of Labour majority. I think that having Scotland in the Union is essential to maintain the social cohesion of the entire nation. I think Britain needs Scotland more than Scotland needs Britain. A Britain totally dominated by the Southeast, with a very different set of values and attitudes from the Midlands and North is a recipes for long-term unrest and possible disintegration.

I think IC made the pertinent point that for Cameron (the Conservatives) this is probably a no loose situation. The drubbing at the last general election highlights the level of how far out of touch Scotland feels, with the Conservatives, and would probably need campaigning of epic proportions with very little scope for reversing their fortunes to make any impact. So permanently wiping out the 30 or so Labour MP's may look very attractive.

On the other hand, I think that the Scots need, and perhaps won't need any encouragement, to ignore the consequences of independence for anyone except themselves. They certainly don't need Cameron telling them what's right or wrong in the pursuit of their own future.

I can see how that looks, but feel as we are a 'United Kingdom' being part of that comes some obligation to the other nations, that is not me suggesting Cameron needs to drive the process, but have a say all the same.

Paul

 

[Wessexman]

I had never even heard anything about it, till you came up with it. Like I said they say it is a tactic used by those like yourself wanting to cause trouble.



You were maliciously associating Scotland and the Serbs of Bosnia. You were deliberately trying to defame the integrity of Scotland, when if you actually did do a bit of proper looking you would discover that Scottish people have far more understanding of people's desire for their own right to choose than most anywhere.

You were baiting. I should have ignored you. My mistake.



Here is what you said post 25.

You so have no clue about anything. I pity you.

You are sort of a self-parody aren't you Alexa. You completely dishonest and underhanded behaviour at the mention of possible non-Scottish Shetland feeling seems to belie this great understand of the Scots. The only thing that saves your point is the hugely ironic one fact you often act like this.

I pity you.

 

[Andalublue]

Andy,I understand what you mean by balance, but i think it goes much further. From the inception of devolution the various forms Scottish parliament, Welsh assembly, NI assembly have all sought, with varying degrees of success, to gain autonomy. I see that more as a desire for separation, than to provide some form of counter balance with Westminster.

No, Paul, that wasn't my point, the Scots, or at least the Scots Nats, have never been motivated by what's best for Westminster. When Labour was in control, perhaps a bit.

What i can see, and to an extent empathise with (considering I'm located in a peripheral region) is that feeling of disenfranchisement from the capital, the feeling of neglect in terms of infrastructure and government liquidity stopping at invisible regional barriers, the Watford gap springs to mind

Yes, you can feel it in the Midlands and the North, not so much in the East and Southwest. When I lived in Newcastle I remeber being struck by how close people felt to the Scots both cuturally and politically. Much more so than with the SE and London.

I think IC made the pertinent point that for Cameron (the Conservatives) this is probably a no loose situation. The drubbing at the last general election highlights the level of how far out of touch Scotland feels, with the Conservatives, and would probably need campaigning of epic proportions with very little scope for reversing their fortunes to make any impact. So permanently wiping out the 30 or so Labour MP's may look very attractive.

Of course, in strictly electoral terms the Tories would benefit hugely, but let's not forget that it is the Conservative and Unionist Party. It's in their very constitution and DNA to be a party that holds the Union together. The traditionalist wing of the Tories would see Scottish independence as nothing less than treason.

I can see how that looks, but feel as we are a 'United Kingdom' being part of that comes some obligation to the other nations, that is not me suggesting Cameron needs to drive the process, but have a say all the same.

I don't think the Scots Nats see that Scotland have any obligation towards the Union and, if the Scottish people see that their is a conflict between the interests of Scotland and the interests of the Union, they are more than within their rights to look to the interests of Scotland first and foremost.

 

[alexa]

Someone mentioned that the North might begin agitating for greater devolution, but the North has no forum or institutions with which to promote or articulate such sentiments.

I never understood why the North did not go for Regional Assemblies. People said it was because they would cost more money but I suspect you have the answer there. They had no experience of it - they moved between Scotland and England.

A Britain totally dominated by the Southeast, with a very different set of values and attitudes from the Midlands and North is a recipes for long-term unrest and possible disintegration.

It will reveal what this article calls 'The English Question'

Goodbye Charter 88: a new epoch for democratic resistance has begun | openDemocracy

There will be a great need to unify England and can that be done under the current system?

They certainly don't need Cameron telling them what's right or wrong in the pursuit of their own future.

The SNP were elected by the people of Scotland to the Scottish Parliament with an overall majority something which was supposed to be impossible. Listening to people talk sounded at the very least patronising - like we were too stupid to elect our own people and go with the mandate. The SNP claims it has been inundated with new members since this happened.

Possibly more worrying for England, Salmond gives a hint that he might be trustworthy.

Yes, you can feel it in the Midlands and the North, not so much in the East and Southwest. When I lived in Newcastle I remeber being struck by how close people felt to the Scots both cuturally and politically. Much more so than with the SE and London.

Yes I would agree with you there and of course Newcastle has been part of Scotland. I imagine there has always been quite a bit of toing and throwing of people between there and Scotland. I think we would have no problem including Newcastle if she ever said she wanted to be part of Scotland if we go for Independence. My current feeling is it is our only chance to create a good future for ourselves. The UK needs to get it's democracy back and be there for the good of it's people. My opinion is not fixed but that is how it is at the moment.

 

[Ben K.]

I understand that! For me all my relatives are scottish as are my parents so im obviously very proud of my scottish blood however I was brought up on RAF bases and myself served in the British army and I love the fact we are a united island but so different socially! Like I said when push comes to shove I dont think Scotland will vote yes but if they do I will be sad to see my island break apart.

My heart breaks for you....


In all seriousness, the push for independence seems more motivated by political ideology than Scottish nationalism/patriotism. In the wake of such an achievement, the Scots will have to go it alone, no imagined kinship with the Scandinavians and no bonanza of natural resources to fund their socialist utopia for a sustained period of time. The SNP will split down right and left wing lines and a new ideological debate will arise amongst a now smaller population. That's the destiny of all independent democratic nations, not holding hands and singing kumbaya under one flag, people like Alexa shouldn't fool themselves otherwise.

 

[Wessexman]

My heart breaks for you....


In all seriousness, the push for independence seems more motivated by political ideology than Scottish nationalism/patriotism. In the wake of such an achievement, the Scots will have to go it alone, no imagined kinship with the Scandinavians and no bonanza of natural resources to fund their socialist utopia for a sustained period of time. The SNP will split down right and left wing lines and a new ideological debate will arise amongst a now smaller population. That's the destiny of all independent democratic nations, not holding hands and singing kumbaya under one flag, people like Alexa shouldn't fool themselves otherwise.

But on the plus side we won't have a Labour government in England for a while.

I feel exactly he same as Andalublue on this, but in reverse. I think it would be great for our social cohesion and so forth. Less multiculturalism, more controlled immigration, less of a role for the Guardianistas, a reigning in of the BBC, a reigning in of the EU or perhaps even leaving it, a more historically and culturally continuous stance and hopefully a return to the rule of law and historical English liberties instead of an uppity judiciary which like the Yanks Supreme Court is more and more anxious to be making the law, the human rights act and flouting basic liberties like double jeopardy. It is enough to almost make me forget my desire not to be a completely different nation to Scotland.

 

[Ben K.]

But on the plus side we won't have a Labour government in England for a while.

For a brief while, sure. If not the Labour Party, their analogues will fill the gap left by the Scots leaving. Far more likely than the English disintegration some are postulating.

 

[Wessexman]

For a brief while, sure. If not the Labour Party, their analogues will fill the gap left by the Scots leaving. Far more likely than the English disintegration some are postulating.

Well that would be true. Eventually an opposition would form, it is bound to. However not only would this take a while, but, if any attention is paid to the electorate, it should be a somewhat more conservative opposition than at the moment. Maybe there might even be a proper conservative as leader of the Tories.

 

[Andalublue]

My heart breaks for you....

Very fair, if somewhat cynical, response from an Irishman.

In all seriousness, the push for independence seems more motivated by political ideology than Scottish nationalism/patriotism. In the wake of such an achievement, the Scots will have to go it alone, no imagined kinship with the Scandinavians and no bonanza of natural resources to fund their socialist utopia for a sustained period of time. The SNP will split down right and left wing lines and a new ideological debate will arise amongst a now smaller population. That's the destiny of all independent democratic nations, not holding hands and singing kumbaya under one flag, people like Alexa shouldn't fool themselves otherwise.

And yet there is no reason at all why Scotland, like Ireland has done, cannot create a viable, democratic nation that isn't constantly kow-towing to, and having to eat the crumbs from under the table of Westminster. I've already said I hope that they won't vote for it, but if they do I wish them luck, except in the Six Nations, of course.

 

[Wessexman]

Very fair, if somewhat cynical, response from an Irishman.

And yet there is no reason at all why Scotland, like Ireland has done, cannot create a viable, democratic nation that isn't constantly kow-towing to, and having to eat the crumbs from under the table of Westminster. I've already said I hope that they won't vote for it, but if they do I wish them luck, except in the Six Nations, of course.

I largely agree with this, though I also don't quite see the point if that viability means kow-towing to Brussels and the globalised economy instead.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Someone mentioned that the North might begin agitating for greater devolution, but the North has no forum or institutions with which to promote or articulate such sentiments --

"North East votes 'no' to assembly
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott admitted his plans for regional devolution had suffered an "emphatic defeat" on Thursday night.The total number of people voting against the plans was 696,519 (78%), while 197,310 (22%) voted in favour.
Official figures showed 47.8% of the region's 1.9 million voters took part in the all-postal ballot."

Link

Voting tends to be quite low on regional matters but 49% of the North east Electorate came out and voted no against such assemblies in 2004.

-- I think Britain needs Scotland more than Scotland needs Britain. A Britain totally dominated by the Southeast, with a very different set of values and attitudes from the Midlands and North is a recipes for long-term unrest and possible disintegration --

The small sum of the £1400+ subsidy per Scottish head that we pay to Scotland suggests otherwise. You may be right about the Conservatives containing "unionist" within their title but in 2010, 3/4 of the Conservative party wanted Cameron to reform the amount of money sent to Scotland. I know I'm focussing on the financial and maybe the SNP want independence regardless of whether Scotland would be better off or not but a few years of the same serious budget constraints which the Scots have been shielded from will certainly change opinion.

I'm close-ish to the border and today asked some of my Scottish students about their views (16-17 year olds) and uniformly they all predicted the free university education they would get would go very quickly after independence.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- When I lived in Newcastle I remeber being struck by how close people felt to the Scots both cuturally and politically. Much more so than with the SE and London --

Haha, you could say the same about Corby in Northamptonshire which probably has more Scots per mile than many parts of Glasgow or Edinburgh (Certainly more than living on the Shetlands) and probably Liverpool and other English cities that have had large influxes of Scots over time. Anyhow, my recollection of Newcastle was that it certainly saw itself as very much an English city. Berwick on tweed however is another matter.

 

[Ben K.]

Very fair, if somewhat cynical, response from an Irishman.

Cynicism is our version of levity.

And yet there is no reason at all why Scotland, like Ireland has done, cannot create a viable, democratic nation that isn't constantly kow-towing to, and having to eat the crumbs from under the table of Westminster. I've already said I hope that they won't vote for it, but if they do I wish them luck, except in the Six Nations, of course.

I would say the circumstances are very different. The tide of nationalism came at a time when Ireland was performing better economically than it ever had been (people on both sides forget this and point to a devastating famine 50 years earlier) and when the Union it was a part of was at its peak globally. Something about the Scots movement reeks of abandoning a perceived sinking ship rather than true patriotism. The viable democratic Irish nation you point to was not properly in place until 50 years after its independence and that's with being removed from the political instability of mainland Europe during that period.