By combining Obamacare with taxes, GOP goes for it all[W:116]

[poweRob]

Coudnt het ast the first aragrah of yur ost without resonding. Its not cororate america that wants to eliminate obamacare. They want it more than you do. Obamacare is a form of cororate wefare in the highest order. The more gov provided heathcare is the less they will be forced to provide. If you think big money corporations are ahainst universa healthcare than you dont understand the political side of it.

What i find confusing about this issue is the staunch support from eft leaning voters for UHC. I understand the i want it for free mentaity but it is in direct confict with the my body my choice mantra by the left. Are you at all concerned about having to justify your health care choices to our gov?

Et me give you a what if type of exampe thats plausible imo

What if the gov decided to move peoe with diabetes into a higher tax bracket to help offset the costs. Would you be ok with that?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

wtf?. Friends don't let friends drink and post.

 

[Greenbeard]

Insurers were dropping out of the exchanges and premiums and deductibles were shooting through the roof long before Trump stepped into office and you know it.

I know the story quite well.

The Story of the Exchanges.

The GOP has been nothing short of a trainwreck on this and they've hurt a lot of people over the past few years (disproportionately in red states) for no apparent reason. Trump's efforts to screw people are just continuing a GOP trend.

 

[MAGAnificent]

GOP really doesn't want to win elections much anymore. I mean we have the trump fiasco, tied with the Moore fiasco and while their at it... lets take away a lot of people's healthcare. I say go for it. Let the people see who you are and vote for or against such behavior it in the future. It's sad that the GOP is so desperate that they have to do this underhanded maneuver to repeal Obamacare by making it a part of their tax bill. But they must please their corporate masters before thinking about their constituents.

By combining Obamacare with taxes, GOP goes for it all

Despite nearly a year's worth of heartache, Republicans can't quit trying to repeal Obamacare.

Senate Republicans plan to include a repeal of the individual mandate -- a key piece of the Affordable Care Act -- in their tax reform efforts. It's a move that dramatically raises the stakes for President Donald Trump and congressional Republicans, who are still looking for a single, substantial legislative accomplishment to deliver to the American people this year.​

I''l just ignore all but your comments on the individual mandate. You are living in an alternate world. Your party in a time frame of just 6 years, lost control of the house of representives, the Senate, the majority of state legislatures, the majority of state governors and finally, the white house, primarily over their passing and defending Obamacare. The republicans on the otherhand campaigned on "repeal and replace obamacare" for seven years. if they do not repeal obamacare, or at least the individual mandate, they are going to lose ground in 2018 and they know it. And it makes perfect sense to repeal the mandate as part of tax reform. That mandate has been declared a tax by both the democrats and the US Supreme Court. It is enforced by the IRS. It has nothing to do with corporate masters. Coporations do not enter into the "individual mandate". Corporations only care about the mandate that forces corporations to offer insurance plans to their full time employees. Repealing that mandate is not part of the proposed tax reform as it is a requirement rather then a tax. As for people losing insurance over the repeal of the individual mandate, that is bunk. I would be more likely to rejoin the private health insurance market without the individual mandate. And it's one thing to claim that more people are insured because of obamacare, however when so many who are insured cannot afford to take advantage of health insurance that they do buy because of insanely high premiums and deductibles, the "more insured" has little meaning or value.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Why do you and others on the left have to lie? First of all, voters voted Republicans in over the last six years (plus Trump) because they wanted Obamacare repealed. Second of all, this tax legislation does not repeal Obamacare. It repeals the Obamacare mandate, which is not legal anyway.

Specifically the individual mandate....which is the cruelest part of obamacare.

 

[Greenbeard]

I would be more likely to rejoin the private health insurance market without the individual mandate.

Really? If the GOP tacks on 10% of extra premium increases every year (doubling premiums relative to what they'd be under the ACA in less than a decade), that will make you more likely to buy insurance?

 

[MAGAnificent]

Absurd.
People cannot *afford* insurance on the wages they have. So you make some more jobs...they still can't afford it.
More jobs doesn't change the wages, and the ever-shrinking wages of the middle class relative to the ever-growing wealthy incomes.

Similarly, what you don't admit, is that government spending by in large, is going to create jobs no matter where they spend it. If they spend it on the military, it will largely go to jobs/wages. If they give it to the middle class..it's like wages but it gets spent back into the economy leading to higher revenues leading to...more jobs/wages. But it also may help them afford insurance, and it will also go to companies for jobs/wages...everyone wins, but more emphasis is on where it's needed.

Spending it just on the corporate elites? well, why would they create jobs with it? Why not just play market investing with it? Keep it parked overseas to avoid taxes. Invest outside the U.S., that's where a lot of investment goes...why invest in the U.S. which is a developed economy, when there are booming undeveloped economies where the margins are?

When it comes to necessary government spending, you are correct. However the government has in the last few decades become so bloated and loaded with "make work" civil service jobs which do not add anything to the economy. And the vast majority of economic production spawned in the corporate world And if you are concerned about corporations parking money overseas to avoid taxes, why wouldn't they? America has the highest corporate tax rates in the free world. That's the biggest single reason our economy is moving so slow. You should be delighted with the proposed corporate tax cuts. if they pass, there will be much less incentive to look for tax shelters. Corporate taxes get passed on to the consumer anyway. Lower those taxes, the price of good and services will go down as well. Then we will see solid economic growth.

 

[MAGAnificent]

It seems to me that there really are only two alternatives when it comes to Obamacare.(and this is by design, BTW) We can either repeal it and start over with something else or we can "fix" it by going to single payer.

The GOP would be finished for a generation if they opted to go the single payer route.

And the GOP knows that. Single payer was actually the goal of Obamacare. Obamacare was designed to fail and the back up in the original bill was single payer. Fortunately neither the GOP or the courts allowed that part of obamacare to become law. Without the single payer fallback, the libruls are defending obamacare to their political deaths, just for the sake of Obama's so-called legacy.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Actually, voters expected Republicans to repeal and replace it with something better. That was the GOP/Trump promise. The reality was the GOP and Trump were lying and had nothing better and didn't plan on replacing the ACA with something better. The GOP merely wanted to repeal Obamacare, so that their rich donors could get a tax-cut that they demanded, or the GOP's bribe fund campaign contributions would dry up. The two bills that they floated had an approval of just 17%. The approval of Obamacare itself rose dramatically and now, more people are signing up than ever before.

Replacing obamacare with a bag of canine excrement would be an improvement. And the alleged sudden public approval of obamacare is a high tech lie.

 

[MTAtech]

Replacing obamacare with a bag of canine excrement would be an improvement. And the alleged sudden public approval of obamacare is a high tech lie.

I'm trying to have an intelligent and serious discussion. Your post, above, adds nothing of value to the discussion.

The reality is, there are millions of Americans that have benefited from Obamacare, many of whom voted for Trump.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Republican voters want Obamacare repealed. But they magically don't want the ACA repealed. Extremely low information voters.

It's going to effect red state constituents more than blue so... good luck with that.

You are making up at least half as you go along. Republican voters absolutely want the entire obamacare bill repealed. However they know that the establishment republicans are weak willed and therefore will accept repeal of the mandate, knowing that such will speed up the death spiral of obamacare.

 

[Moderate Right]

There's a book called "Deadly Spin" by Wendell Potter who was an advertising exec who left the industry over the massive manipulation campaign waged against the ACA.

And the republicans pulled key parts out deliberately to make it impossible for the ACA to succeed.

It was always an ambitious project, and nobody could have gotten it perfect in one shot.

So lets not pretend that monkey wrenches weren't thrown into the works.

If Democrats had passed an actual bipartisan plan then Republicans would have been on board with fixing it. Democrats, in their ultimate arrogance, who thought they would be in power for a long time, rammed through a partisan plan assuming that when bumps came up in the road they would still be in power to fix them. Their arrogance came back to bite them in the ass.

 

[MAGAnificent]

I'm trying to have an intelligent and serious discussion.

No you are not. You are defending Obama entirely for partisan motivations.

Your post, above, adds nothing of value to the discussion.

It does add alot to it if you were objective. Obamacare is a monumental disaster. Repealing it as doing nothing would be an improvement. Real healthcare reform would likely follow. Obamacare is nothing but a failed income redistribution scheme.

The reality is, there are millions of Americans that have benefited from Obamacare, many of whom voted for Trump.

And many millions more who were and still are devastated by it. What is the benefit of being insured if the premiums and deductibles are so high that you cannot afford to take advantage of it? Because of Obamacare, many people who could previously afford healthcare are now paying premiums that are higher and in some cases several times higher then their home mortgage payments. Not to mention deductibles in the $6000.00 to $12,000 range.

 

[What if...?]

If Democrats had passed an actual bipartisan plan then Republicans would have been on board with fixing it. Democrats, in their ultimate arrogance, who thought they would be in power for a long time, rammed through a partisan plan assuming that when bumps came up in the road they would still be in power to fix them. Their arrogance came back to bite them in the ass.

The only plan the republicans would have been on board with was no plan.

They just said no. Like they did for eight years.

Hell, the ACA's basics were a heritage foundation plan. Including the dreaded mandate.

I weary of this nonsense. Because it is nonsense.

Propaganda. Persuasion science at its worst.

 

[MAGAnificent]

If Democrats had passed an actual bipartisan plan then Republicans would have been on board with fixing it. Democrats, in their ultimate arrogance, who thought they would be in power for a long time, rammed through a partisan plan assuming that when bumps came up in the road they would still be in power to fix them. Their arrogance came back to bite them in the ass.

Very well stated. The democrats could have met the republicans half way and the two sides would have come up with a bill that both sides could live with. Not only would they have gained political cover, they would have received the lions share of the credit if the public reacted positively. Instead, they went with partisan arrogance and have since lost control of both houses of congress, the majority of state legislatures(including in my home state which had been democrat since Ulysless S Grant was president), the majority of state governors and finally the white house. And they are still defending obamacare.

 

[Greenbeard]

The democrats could have met the republicans half way and the two sides would have come up with a bill that both sides could live with.

Met them half way to what? It's been almost nine years and they still don't have an alternative idea even they can agree on. Their idea at the time was "a blank sheet of paper." No joke, that's literally the idea they brought to the health care summit Obama convened in February 2010. Should the Dems have waited a decade for the GOP to have something to bring to the table? Maybe two decades?

The GOP had every opportunity to shape the ACA. They just screwed around and came up with nothing. A performance they repeated most of this year.

 

[Deuce]

What a bunch of crybabies. The left has consistently criticized Trump and laughed at him for failing to repeal and replace Obamacare and now they've all got their panties in a wad.

You're crying like a tiny little baby right now that "the left" is criticizing your precious GOP's absurd tax plan. What a crybaby! It's so fun to deflect any and all criticism as "whining."

 

[RabidAlpaca]

You can't lose something you didn't want in the first place. 13 million people will not "lose" their healthcare. 13 million people will no longer be mandated to buy something they don't want. Think about it. If Obamacare was so great, why do 13 million people have to be FORCED to buy it?

I always thought this myth that many Americans just don't want Healthcare to be laughably idiotic. We're all soft bags of vulnerable meet that are going to need maintenance at some point.

We've been paying twice as much as other developed nations for worse healthcare for decades, the problem didn't start in 2009.

What a bunch of crybabies. The left has consistently criticized Trump and laughed at him for failing to repeal and replace Obamacare and now they've all got their panties in a wad.

And has he repealed and replaced it? Are you under the impression this will do that? We're actually gleeful that Trump is too incompetent and disorganized to succeed in any of us promises.

 

[Moderate Right]

The only plan the Democrats would have been on board with was their plan.

They just said no. Like they did for eight years.

I weary of this nonsense. Because it is nonsense.

Propaganda. Persuasion science at its worst.

I agree. That's why Obamacare has not worked out.

 

[Moderate Right]

You're crying like a tiny little baby right now that "the left" is criticizing your precious GOP's absurd tax plan. What a crybaby! It's so fun to deflect any and all criticism as "whining."

You're crying like a tiny little baby right now about the GOP's tax plan. What a crybaby! It's so fun to deflect any and all criticism as "whining."

 

[Moderate Right]

I always thought this myth that many Americans just don't want Healthcare to be laughably idiotic. We're all soft bags of vulnerable meet that are going to need maintenance at some point.

We've been paying twice as much as other developed nations for worse healthcare for decades, the problem didn't start in 2009.



And has he repealed and replaced it? Are you under the impression this will do that? We're actually gleeful that Trump is too incompetent and disorganized to succeed in any of us promises.

Americans don't want to pay for Healthcare they can't afford. Some Americans flat out can't afford it so they don't want to be forced to buy it. Of course they want it. They just don't want to be forced to pay for it, particularly younger, healthier people who believe nothing will happen to them so why pay for something they don't need?

Apparently you're not keeping up with the news or threads here on DP. Lefties all have their panties in a wad, claiming that the Republican tax plan will repeal Obamacare. They're running around screaming that the sky is falling.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Americans don't want to pay for Healthcare they can't afford. Some Americans flat out can't afford it so they don't want to be forced to buy it. Of course they want it. They just don't want to be forced to pay for it, particularly younger, healthier people who believe nothing will happen to them so why pay for something they don't need?

Apparently you're not keeping up with the news or threads here on DP. Lefties all have their panties in a wad, claiming that the Republican tax plan will repeal Obamacare. They're running around screaming that the sky is falling.

No, I think you're superimposing the reaction you want them to have. Several Republican senators and all Democrats have already said they won't vote for it so just like most of Trump'plans they're dead before they even started.

Nothing the Republicans want to do with healthcare will reduce costs or get all Americans insured. The ACA wasn't the best idea but it at least did something to improve the health care of Americans. We're one of the dumbest and most incompetent countries in the industrialized world as we're the only one who has been completely unable to figure out something everyone else already did. Spoiler alert: nobody in the world does healthcare like the Republicans want because it's expensive and still leaves tens of millions uninsured. Either way, let's bury the ridiculous argument that some Americans just don't want or need Healthcare. What they need is AFFORDABLE healthcare, so let's swallow our pride and look around at the rest of the world for what works.

 

[What if...?]

I agree. That's why Obamacare has not worked out.

Cynical psychological manipulation is the root of most of our issues.

Its why we can't have nice things.

 

[Fraggle Rock]

I hope they get all they are wishing for with this bill. They crack me up. The gang that can't shoot straight. 2018 elections will be a bloodbath for them if this passes so please pass it all my Conservative brethren. This way Pocahontas can get her orange scalp in 2020. A couple over 65 will get a deduction of $24000 on their taxes. What they are not telling you that the individual exemptions will be gone. " Here's how that math works. Let's say you are single with no dependents, and you have a moderate income. Currently, you get to take the standard deduction ($6,350) and one personal exemption ($4,050). If you are 65 or older, you also get to take an additional standard deduction ($1,250). That adds up to $10,400, or $11,650 if you're over 65.

The Republican plan would replace all these provisions with a single deduction of $12,000 ($24,000 for married couples.) That's a 15% increase — except for seniors, who get a 3% increase.

And then your first dollar of taxable income would be subjected to a 12% tax rate, instead of the current 10%. But don't worry — the framework says "additional tax relief," as yet unspecified, will emerge for you during the committee process". Here is thew whole article....get ready to grab your ankles....all they did was put taxes under three eggshells and move them around. They do this cause they think you are idiots. And you know what I think in Conservative cases they are correct. Trump tax plan: 'Doubled standard deduction' is misleading - Business Insider

 

[Fraggle Rock]

I forgot to mention that the Corporations who will see approximately 30-35% decrease in taxes. Now get this!!!!! While Congress leaves them with all the current loopholes intact. Yes thats right the taxpayer can not tax medical expenses deduction, mortgage expenses, property and sales tax deduction or state tax deduction. No problem my Conservative friends by squeezing out the loopholes for the middle class. This is comical

 

[Moderate Right]

No, I think you're superimposing the reaction you want them to have. Several Republican senators and all Democrats have already said they won't vote for it so just like most of Trump'plans they're dead before they even started.

Nothing the Republicans want to do with healthcare will reduce costs or get all Americans insured. The ACA wasn't the best idea but it at least did something to improve the health care of Americans. We're one of the dumbest and most incompetent countries in the industrialized world as we're the only one who has been completely unable to figure out something everyone else already did. Spoiler alert: nobody in the world does healthcare like the Republicans want because it's expensive and still leaves tens of millions uninsured. Either way, let's bury the ridiculous argument that some Americans just don't want or need Healthcare. What they need is AFFORDABLE healthcare, so let's swallow our pride and look around at the rest of the world for what works.

The CBO projected that both the House and the Senate's (not the tax bill) previous healthcare plans would offer reduced costs for healthcare over Obamacare so you are wrong. The tax plan only addresses the mandate so it is a tax bill, not a healthcare bill. Who says that all Americans should be insured, liberals? The Democrats are the ones who refused to talk about a bipartisan plan unless it was to fix Obamacare, they rejected repealing Obamacare and coming up with a better bipartisan plan.