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Bush Approves use of Torture

Deegan

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Pacridge said:
Yeah that tactic worked well for the Nazi' et el.

Well I was not suggesting we do this, as those people may very well be innocent, but it would work a lot better then torturing the terrorist himself, as he will just tell you what you want to hear. If it were up to me, they would be tried in a tribunal, then executed, so there are things worse then Gitmo.;)
 
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gdalton

Pacridge said:
Yeah that tactic worked well for the Nazi' et el.

I love it when people bring up the Nazi argument. Oh yah the war on terror is bad because America is actualy fighting people who want to kill us and since we have actualy killed some of these people we are Nazi's, what a precise analogy because we all know that Hittler only killed the jew's when they were blowing up inoccent germans.
Please find something more accurate to describe the detaining of a few hundred men other then the idea that the attempted extermination of an entire race is some how the same.
 

Kelzie

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gdalton said:
I love it when people bring up the Nazi argument. Oh yah the war on terror is bad because America is actualy fighting people who want to kill us and since we have actualy killed some of these people we are Nazi's, what a precise analogy because we all know that Hittler only killed the jew's when they were blowing up inoccent germans.
Please find something more accurate to describe the detaining of a few hundred men other then the idea that the attempted extermination of an entire race is some how the same.

I believe he was referring to the fact that the Nazis also tortured people, not the genocide.
 

Middleground

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I just love those who refuse to adhere to common sense and proven fact. I have not read one iota of how beating the crap out of an untried "terrorist" has resulted in any positive gains for the US. I love how some play the cards of "they are all criminals" and should be treated that way. Well, then, how do explain the fact that a major % of inmates at Abu Ghraib were released, many of whom got beaten to a pulp?

Also, I'd really like to hear from those who are pro-torture and ask how they feel about this situation. Apparently, a Marine was captured by insurgents:

US Marine captured in Iraq

August 03, 2005
AN Iraqi insurgent group said overnight it has captured a US Marine who was wounded in a clash in western Iraq in which eight other Marines were killed.

The Army of Ansar al-Sunna said on its Web site that it would soon issue pictures of the Marine, who it said it captured after ambushing US forces near the town of Haditha, northwest of Baghdad.

It did not say when it carried out the attack.


In your fair-minded opinions, should he be treated based-on the rules of Amnesty Int., or is he fair game to have the **** kicked out of him?
 

Deegan

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Middleground said:
I just love those who refuse to adhere to common sense and proven fact. I have not read one iota of how beating the crap out of an untried "terrorist" has resulted in any positive gains for the US. I love how some play the cards of "they are all criminals" and should be treated that way. Well, then, how do explain the fact that a major % of inmates at Abu Ghraib were released, many of whom got beaten to a pulp?

Also, I'd really like to hear from those who are pro-torture and ask how they feel about this situation. Apparently, a Marine was captured by insurgents:

US Marine captured in Iraq

August 03, 2005
AN Iraqi insurgent group said overnight it has captured a US Marine who was wounded in a clash in western Iraq in which eight other Marines were killed.

The Army of Ansar al-Sunna said on its Web site that it would soon issue pictures of the Marine, who it said it captured after ambushing US forces near the town of Haditha, northwest of Baghdad.

It did not say when it carried out the attack.


In your fair-minded opinions, should he be treated based-on the rules of Amnesty Int., or is he fair game to have the **** kicked out of him?


I think we already know he's about to lose his head, so this is not relevant.:(
 

Middleground

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Deegan said:
I think we already know he's about to lose his head, so this is not relevant.:(


Most likely, yes, but it's not the point that I was trying to make.

All I'm saying that those who favour torture, should not expect anything else from the enemy. No matter if it's their cousin or neighbour that has been captured, their stance would suggest that he's fair game.
 
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gdalton

Middleground said:
US Marine captured in Iraq

August 03, 2005
AN Iraqi insurgent group said overnight it has captured a US Marine who was wounded in a clash in western Iraq in which eight other Marines were killed.

The Army of Ansar al-Sunna said on its Web site that it would soon issue pictures of the Marine, who it said it captured after ambushing US forces near the town of Haditha, northwest of Baghdad.

It did not say when it carried out the attack.


In your fair-minded opinions, should he be treated based-on the rules of Amnesty Int., or is he fair game to have the **** kicked out of him?

Ok, I know I get a little heated over these kinds of things and I know I'm not always right (thats why I like to debate) but I can assure you that any of our soldiers who are captured by terrorist will never be treated under the rules of Amnest Int. and I'm pretty sure none of the terrorist are going to write on a forum somewhere about how un fair it was.
 

Kelzie

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gdalton said:
Ok, I know I get a little heated over these kinds of things and I know I'm not always right (thats why I like to debate) but I can assure you that any of our soldiers who are captured by terrorist will never be treated under the rules of Amnest Int. and I'm pretty sure none of the terrorist are going to write on a forum somewhere about how un fair it was.

Why in the world should the insurgents treat our captured soldiers under the rules of Amnesty Int., if we don't treat their captured soldiers under the same rule.
 
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gdalton

Kelzie said:
Why in the world should the insurgents treat our captured soldiers under the rules of Amnesty Int., if we don't treat their captured soldiers under the same rule.

Wow, so your argument is that as long as we treat them with respect they will treat us with the same. Bless you, how I wish that was true, and no I'm not kidding about that.
 

Kelzie

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gdalton said:
Wow, so your argument is that as long as we treat them with respect they will treat us with the same. Bless you, how I wish that was true, and no I'm not kidding about that.

No, as much as I wish it was true, I think it's a little late for that. My point was that why would we expect different behavior from them if we torture their soldiers.
 

Middleground

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gdalton said:
Ok, I know I get a little heated over these kinds of things and I know I'm not always right (thats why I like to debate) but I can assure you that any of our soldiers who are captured by terrorist will never be treated under the rules of Amnest Int. and I'm pretty sure none of the terrorist are going to write on a forum somewhere about how un fair it was.

So I guess what you are saying is that they (the terrorists) are barbarians, right?
 
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gdalton

Kelzie said:
No, as much as I wish it was true, I think it's a little late for that. My point was that why would we expect different behavior from them if we torture their soldiers.

I just want to win the war and have a safe place to raise my children and I can't see many alternatives. I know we are not perfect, I know torture is wrong, I know that war is the most evil invention of man but knowing these things changes nothing.
 
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gdalton

Middleground said:
So I guess what you are saying is that they (the terrorists) are barbarians, right?

Yep. I would label anyone who would strap a bomb to there back and blow it up on a public bus a barbarian.
 

Kelzie

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gdalton said:
I just want to win the war and have a safe place to raise my children and I can't see many alternatives. I know we are not perfect, I know torture is wrong, I know that war is the most evil invention of man but knowing these things changes nothing.

I wouldn't want to raise my children in a country that practices torture.
 

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gdalton said:
Yep. I would label anyone who would strap a bomb to there back and blow it up on a public bus a barbarian.


My point, not unlike Kelzie's, is how can they be barbarian, yet not the US? The US government condones torture... how is that any different?

Somewhere out there, an Islamic person has had a cousin and a neighbour subjected to torture without just cause. Either way, it's just not right. And it does not work.
 

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gdalton said:
I just want to win the war and have a safe place to raise my children and I can't see many alternatives. I know we are not perfect, I know torture is wrong, I know that war is the most evil invention of man but knowing these things changes nothing.

I do understand where you are coming from. That said, I think that the US is one of the safest countries in the world. Europeans have endured much more. You can't live your life in fear, for anything can happen.
 
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gdalton

Middleground said:
My point, not unlike Kelzie's, is how can they be barbarian, yet not the US? The US government condones torture... how is that any different?

Somewhere out there, an Islamic person has had a cousin and a neighbour subjected to torture without just cause. Either way, it's just not right. And it does not work.

I agree with the argument that torture is not right and it dosn't work. Unfortunatly in my limited expertise in military and interigation strategy I know of not one way that gaurantees compliance and honesty from captive prisoners, but I am willing to listen to any argument that might produce the desired results.
 

Deegan

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I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, I have yet to hear evidence of any torture, much less any torture directed by the president. We have had a few detainee's pissed on, a few were chained to a floor, and another had fake blood wiped on their face. This does not a country of torture make, we are far from it, yet some want to believe the worse, and this won't change with the next admin. No, anti-American sentiment has been an obvious problem for sometime now, I really don't think of it as a problem at all, as the attacks have been waged for more then 25 years now. This war on terror will not stop this, just as closing gitmo will not stop this. What could very well change this is this, ending the conditions in the M.E and other troubled areas that cause this desperation, and then, this senseless violence.

Iraq is the first step, just as Germany and Japan were 60 years ago. Things don't change because we all sit around and sing Kumb by ya, they change with strong military responses. I know we would all like to believe there is another way, but history has taught us that is not the case. just as we sat by and watched Hitler gain strength, we can not allow those brutal regimes of Iraq, and Iran, and N.K, and Syria do the same.

Who are we to say, were the United States of America, and we have been doing this for a long time now. We have a pretty good record of freedom for our people, and freedom for others who can't fight for it themselves, this trumps all other arguments to the contrary. We could just sit here and fill our pieholes, or we could do some great things elsewhere in the world. We could become more isolated again, but last time we did that, Japan had to b**ch slap us in to a rage. I'm rambling, so I'll end it there for now.;)
 
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gdalton

Deegan said:
I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, I have yet to hear evidence of any torture, much less any torture directed by the president. We have had a few detainee's pissed on, a few were chained to a floor, and another had fake blood wiped on their face. This does not a country of torture make, we are far from it, yet some want to believe the worse, and this won't change with the next admin. No, anti-American sentiment has been an obvious problem for sometime now, I really don't think of it as a problem at all, as the attacks have been waged for more then 25 years now. This war on terror will not stop this, just as closing gitmo will not stop this. What could very well change this is this, ending the conditions in the M.E and other troubled areas that cause this desperation, and then, this senseless violence.

Iraq is the first step, just as Germany and Japan were 60 years ago. Things don't change because we all sit around and sing Kumb by ya, they change with strong military responses. I know we would all like to believe there is another way, but history has taught us that is not the case. just as we sat by and watched Hitler gain strength, we can not allow those brutal regimes of Iraq, and Iran, and N.K, and Syria do the same.

Who are we to say, were the United States of America, and we have been doing this for a long time now. We have a pretty good record of freedom for our people, and freedom for others who can't fight for it themselves, this trumps all other arguments to the contrary. We could just sit here and fill our pieholes, or we could do some great things elsewhere in the world. We could become more isolated again, but last time we did that, Japan had to b**ch slap us in to a rage. I'm rambling, so I'll end it there for now.;)

Very well said, I couldn't agree more or explain it better.
 

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gdalton said:
I agree with the argument that torture is not right and it dosn't work. Unfortunatly in my limited expertise in military and interigation strategy I know of not one way that gaurantees compliance and honesty from captive prisoners, but I am willing to listen to any argument that might produce the desired results.

I don't think any methodology is perfect, nor are there any guarantees that the captive will frankly speak. That said, I posted the following earlier in this thread. I find it an interesting read. Apparently, a little sugar will take you much farther.

<snip>Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran, the report's author, noted that despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subjects. They were nice to them.<snip>

link: http://www.budiansky.com/atlantic0506.html
 

Middleground

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Deegan said:
I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, I have yet to hear evidence of any torture, much less any torture directed by the president. We have had a few detainee's pissed on, a few were chained to a floor, and another had fake blood wiped on their face. This does not a country of torture make, we are far from it, yet some want to believe the worse, and this won't change with the next admin.

Is that all you're willing to admit to? Are you actually being serious? Cause if you want, I could cite a whole bunch of articles and pictures with some incredibly vile stuff. Stuff that you should not wish on your worse enemy, let alone a friend or family member.
 
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gdalton

Middleground said:
Is that all you're willing to admit to? Are you actually being serious? Cause if you want, I could cite a whole bunch of articles and pictures with some incredibly vile stuff. Stuff that you should not wish on your worse enemy, let alone a friend or family member.

Please cite the sources, I prefer to see as much of the picture as I can.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Deegan:
I really don't think of it as a problem at all, as the attacks have been waged for more then 25 years now. This war on terror will not stop this, just as closing gitmo will not stop this. What could very well change this is this, ending the conditions in the M.E and other troubled areas that cause this desperation, and then, this senseless violence.
It's not a War on Terror! It's a "Struggle Against Extremist.......I dunno......something!
 

Deegan

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I think you may be referring to the Abu Gharaib photo's, but yes, I will look them over, I could be wrong. I didn't agree with that behavior at all, it was much too public, and it probably reminded them of the things Saddam did in that very prison. Still, this always happens in the conditions of war, someone's friend is killed, and all of a sudden, this kind of thing seems justified.
 
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