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Bush Approves use of Torture

Deegan said:
I could care less what they do to those animals, it's just common knowledge that toture does not work, thus it's just a waste of time, and it hurts our precious image in the world community. Now if you really want them to talk, you take their fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, etc, and you beat the s**t out of them untill they talk.;)
I take it you're okay with Americans video taping Iraqi boys being raped to show their relatives then.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I take it you're okay with Americans video taping Iraqi boys being raped to show their relatives then.


Read the thread before responding with ridiculous assumptions.;)
 
gdalton said:
People it's a WAR we are not having a tickle fight, people are dying on both sides so if smacking some guy upside the head a few hours a day until he gives us some useful info that might save someone’s life (especially when these people target innocent civilians in their attacks) then step aside and let me take a swing.
Yeah, those guys who fought and won WWII using Geneva Conventions interrogation methods had no idea what real war is about. :roll:

gdalton said:
These people in "getmo" are treated with far more respect then they deserve as is, do you think that if you go to your local jail they are going to give you a copy of your holy book, a prayer rug and three meals a day that conform to you’re dietary beliefs. Come on guy.
How is it you are so certain about what these people do or do not deserve?
American military prosecutors described the cases against some of these folks thusly:

Leaks suggest US military terror trials rigged
[Two former military prosecutors sent emails to their superiors saying that the] ...military commissions to try detainees ... are rigged, fraudulent and thin on evidence...

"I consider the insistence on pressing ahead with cases that would be marginal even if properly prepared to be a severe threat to the reputation of the military justice system and even a fraud on the American people."
"Surely they don't expect that this fairly half-assed effort is all that we have been able to put together after all this time."
[Major Robert Preston]

"When I volunteered to assist with this process and was assigned to this office, I expected there would at least be a minimal effort to establish a fair process and diligently prepare cases against significant accused."
"Instead, I find a half-hearted and disorganised effort by a skeleton group of relatively inexperienced attorneys to prosecute fairly low-level accused in a process that appears to be rigged."
[Captain John Carr]

"I can tell you that any such assertion is clearly incorrect," he said. "There is absolutely no evidence that it is rigged."
[Brigadier General Thomas Hemingway]
I cannot help but note overly specific denials like that one- "There is absolutely no evidence that it is rigged."

US terror hearings rigged, say prosecutors
...Major Robert Preston described the cases being prepared against the detainees as "marginal" and "a fraud on the American people."

Brig Gen Thomas Hemingway ... [said] a Pentagon inquiry had found that the prosecutors' comments were the result of "miscommunication" or "personality conflicts".
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I take it you're okay with Americans video taping Iraqi boys being raped to show their relatives then.

Can you provide a link, or a picture of that happening? Thanks.......
 
Navy Pride said:
Can you provide a link, or a picture of that happening? Thanks.......
Pictures of it happening? Gross! Why would you want me to post that?
The video tape has not been released yet.
Even if it had, I don't think that Board rules would allow the posting a those kinds of pictures.


The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse'' and warned that the most "disturbing'' revelations haven't yet been made public.

"The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here,'' he said. "We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.''
One hell of a frat party, no?
 
Navy Pride said:
Can you provide a link, or a picture of that happening? Thanks.......

Here's one link of many. This is an eye-opening article and I recommend that all who cherish American values take the time to read this. As far as I know, this does not represent traditional American belief, one of many elements that has made the US the great country this it is (was?).

<snip>

Mustafa, who is Palestinian, said he earned a master’s degree in Islamic law in Saudi Arabia, but as a young teacher he had trouble making a living in the West Bank. In 1985, he heard that Pakistan was setting up schools for Afghans who were fleeing the Soviet occupation. Mustafa and his wife moved to Peshawar, a city of 1 million near the Pakistani-Afghan border, and for 17 years they lived there and raised eight children, with Mustafa teaching Arabic and the tenets of Islam at a government-run school.

After the American invasion of Afghanistan in the winter of 2001, Mustafa said, Peshawar became tense, with periodic police roundups of suspected militants, although he had no run-ins with the authorities and felt no threat from them. Then, on May 25, 2002, at about 8 p.m., their doorbell rang. Mustafa asked Ibrahim, his youngest son, to answer the door. The boy yelled, “Police!” and ran back into the house, several Pakistani police officers behind him with guns drawn. They took Mustafa in for questioning along with two of his sons, 18-year-old Mohammed and 23-year-old Abdullah. The young men were released later that night. But their father was blindfolded, tightly shackled, and flown to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan.
<snip>

Does he seem like a vicious terrorist to you?

<snip>

During his imprisonment at the compound, Mustafa estimated that he was interrogated about 25 times. Sometimes, he said, the soldiers forced him to kneel on a concrete floor with a bag over his head. Other times they woke him from sleep or interrupted him in prayer. He said he occasionally heard detainees screaming and concluded that they were being beaten. Then one day, he recalled, “an American soldier took me blindfolded. My hands were tightly cuffed, with my ears plugged so I could not hear properly, and my mouth covered so I could only make a muffled scream. Two soldiers, one on each side, forced me to bend down, and a third pressed my face down over a table. A fourth soldier then pulled down my trousers. They rammed a stick up my rectum.”

<snip>

Americans, and the world, have become accustomed to accounts like Mustafa’s in connection with Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison. But his story hints at another scandal—one that has received little sustained media attention and sparked no public outrage. Over the past three years, numerous reports—from Afghan and American human rights groups, and from the Pentagon itself—have documented allegations of abuse inside U.S. compounds in Afghanistan. Hundreds of prisoners have come forward, often reluctantly, offering accounts of harsh interrogation techniques including sexual brutality, beatings, and other methods designed to humiliate and inflict physical pain. At least eight detainees are known to have died in U.S. custody in Afghanistan, and in at least two cases military officials ruled that the deaths were homicides. Many of the incidents were known to U.S. officials long before the Abu Ghraib scandal erupted; yet instead of disciplining those involved, the Pentagon transferred key personnel from Afghanistan to the Iraqi prison. “Had the investigation and prosecution of abusive interrogators in Afghanistan proceeded in a timely manner,” Human Rights Watch executive director Brad Adams noted in an open letter to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld last fall, “it is possible that…many of the abuses seen in Iraq could have been avoided.”<snip>

Link: http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/03/03_2005_Bazelon.html
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Pictures of it happening? Gross! Why would you want me to post that?
The video tape has not been released yet.
Even if it had, I don't think that Board rules would allow the posting a those kinds of pictures.


The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse'' and warned that the most "disturbing'' revelations haven't yet been made public.

"The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here,'' he said. "We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.''
One hell of a frat party, no?


I don't doubt it, when you ask a man to do this sort of bidding, you can't just turn it off. Most troops are admirable, respectful, loyal soldiers, and some are just there to kill something. This should not keep us from constructing a military, nor should it surprise us when things go terribly wrong. Just as there are bad in every field, bad doctors, bad lawyers, there are bad soldiers, but at least they have an excuse for losing their minds.
 
Deegan said:
I think you may be referring to the Abu Gharaib photo's, but yes, I will look them over, I could be wrong. I didn't agree with that behavior at all, it was much too public, and it probably reminded them of the things Saddam did in that very prison. Still, this always happens in the conditions of war, someone's friend is killed, and all of a sudden, this kind of thing seems justified.

It's true that war has sometimes brought the worse out of soldiers. I can image that the constant stress and fright have cause some to go temporarily insane and commit an act that is not normally a part of their core being. That said, I do not think that this torture is isloated. The same atrocities have happened in Iraqi, Afghanistan and Gitmo. Common sense tells me it's a chain of command.
 
Middleground said:
It's true that war has sometimes brought the worse out of soldiers. I can image that the constant stress and fright have cause some to go temporarily insane and commit an act that is not normally a part of their core being. That said, I do not think that this torture is isloated. The same atrocities have happened in Iraqi, Afghanistan and Gitmo. Common sense tells me it's a chain of command.

If this was from the top, you would never have heard about it!

There would not be cute pictures of them posing with naked prisoners, there would not be pictures at all. This was a jail run a muck, a lord of the flies of sorts, it was more like not enough chain of command, and not enough leadership. I know that hurts your political agenda, but those are the facts, no top brass wanted this, but the fault is theirs, they allowed it to go on, and left these soldiers without proper leadership, in a very delicate situation.
 
Deegan said:
If this was from the top, you would never have heard about it!

There would not be cute pictures of them posing with naked prisoners, there would not be pictures at all. This was a jail run a muck, a lord of the flies of sorts, it was more like not enough chain of command, and not enough leadership. I know that hurts your political agenda, but those are the facts, no top brass wanted this, but the fault is theirs, they allowed it to go on, and left these soldiers without proper leadership, in a very delicate situation.


Maybe, maybe not. I don't think any of us can say with certainty. If there is concrete evidence out there, I have not read it.

Perhaps it's a combination of the two. Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever know for sure.
 
Actually, one thing just popped into my head (whoa, now that's a rare occurence! ;) ).

If the orders did not come from the top, how come the Bush administration felt it necessary to amend the "torture laws?"
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Pictures of it happening? Gross! Why would you want me to post that?
The video tape has not been released yet.
Even if it had, I don't think that Board rules would allow the posting a those kinds of pictures.


The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse'' and warned that the most "disturbing'' revelations haven't yet been made public.

"The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here,'' he said. "We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.''
One hell of a frat party, no?

Then all you have is heresay and left wing spin........It is so sad that you liberals blame our whole military for the bad action of a very few.........But what else is new?:roll:
 
Middleground said:
Actually, one thing just popped into my head (whoa, now that's a rare occurence! ;) ).

If the orders did not come from the top, how come the Bush administration felt it necessary to amend the "torture laws?"


To cover their butts of course, and it's something that needed to be defined. This is o.k, this is not o.k, but it's ridiculous to think that the war was being waged in a prison in Iraq, or that we would defeat this enemy through torture. We all understand the power of the media, and how things like this can spin out of control, once again, no one wanted this.
 
This weeks copy of Newsweek has an article proving how the Bush administration is sending prisoners to other countries.....countries known by our own State Department for committing acts of torture against prisoners.

The Bush admistration denies knowing that these prisoners will be tortured.

Yeah, right, and Bush is a Christian...tell me another one.
 
Originally Posted by Middleground
Actually, one thing just popped into my head (whoa, now that's a rare occurence! ).

If the orders did not come from the top, how come the Bush administration felt it necessary to amend the "torture laws?"
Bingo. You just one the grand prize. I was wondering when I was going to see a post raise this point. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
 
Deegan said:
This was a jail run a muck, a lord of the flies of sorts, it was more like not enough chain of command, and not enough leadership.
This theory would be more convincing if it weren't for the nearly identical events going on around the world in US detention centers, Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba.
It seems unlikely that it's the same few crew members who did all these similar things in all these places.

Middleground said:
If the orders did not come from the top, how come the Bush administration felt it necessary to amend the "torture laws?"
They didn't ammend laws. They redefined a term in such a way that what reasonable people would call torture is no longer torture.

Navy Pride said:
Then all you have is heresay and left wing spin........
Are these your new words for video tape?

Navy Pride said:
It is so sad that you liberals blame our whole military for the bad action of a very few.........But what else is new?:roll:
You, being the liberal that you are, have misunderstood what's actually being said. But what else is new?:roll:
 
Simon W. Moon said:
This theory would be more convincing if it weren't for the nearly identical events going on around the world in US detention centers, Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba.
It seems unlikely that it's the same few crew members who did all these similar things in all these places.


If you are seriously suggesting that there is any comparisons to the prison system in America, and the war, or our soldiers to $7.00 dollar an hour guards, you must be high!:roll:

That suggestion is the worst I have seen in quite sometime, but still proves my point, there is good and bad in every profession.
 
Deegan said:
If you are seriously suggesting that there is any comparisons to the prison system in America, and the war, or our soldiers to $7.00 dollar an hour guards, you must be high!:roll:
Not making any such suggestion. Didn't mention the US prison system. Talked about US dentention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba.

Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon
This theory would be more convincing if it weren't for the nearly identical events going on around the world in US detention centers, Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba.

Thanks for thinking of me though.
 
Simon W. Moon, your the "Jerry West" of debating!
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Yeah, those guys who fought and won WWII using Geneva Conventions interrogation methods had no idea what real war is about. :roll:

This is taken directly from the Geneva Convention.

"A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war. Under the Third Geneva Convention (GCIII), persons waging war must have the following characteristics to be protected by the laws of war:

Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict
or members of militias not under the command of the armed forces
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
or are members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
or inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."

So you tell me should we consider these people combatants?

Simon W. Moon said:
Pictures of it happening? Gross! Why would you want me to post that?
The video tape has not been released yet.
Even if it had, I don't think that Board rules would allow the posting a those kinds of pictures.


The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse'' and warned that the most "disturbing'' revelations haven't yet been made public.



Unrealeased, unseen images is not proof.​
 
You know, some of you people actually frighten me. Shouldn't you be back in the Middle Ages where you belong?

What the hell? What if you accidentally stick pins under the fingernails of some guy who's never spoken to a terrorist in his life? How can that possibly be justified?
 
gdalton said:
This is taken directly from the Geneva Convention.
The point was not about their status. the point was about the proven effectiveness of legal interrogation techniques.
gdalton said:
Unrealeased, unseen images is not proof.
Perhaps not. But what we're discussing here is something different. We're talking about images that have been seen but have not yet been released.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Not making any such suggestion. Didn't mention the US prison system. Talked about US dentention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba.

Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon
This theory would be more convincing if it weren't for the nearly identical events going on around the world in US detention centers, Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba.

Thanks for thinking of me though.

You are referring to three detention centers, with a total of 100 to 300 instances of torture or death, and 10 to 20 being found to have validity. It happens around the world because soldiers with problems are in all of those detention centers. It's hard not to get carried away when you hear that 21 Marines died because some coward would not come out and fight, but placed an IED and ran back to his spiderhole. I guess you're asking if the majority of Americans care, I do, but I realize the stress and inexperience that leads to such things. Again, this is not from the top, that just gets you hard, because you know the damage that does to the troops, the top brass, and eventually the president. There is less of this then with any force in the world, I can say that with much confidence, but at the end of the day, there is not much that can be done, as war is hell.
 
Deegan said:
It happens around the world because soldiers with problems are in all of those detention centers. It's hard not to get carried away when you hear that 21 Marines died because some coward would not come out and fight, but placed an IED and ran back to his spiderhole.
This theory would be more convincing if it weren't for the nearly identical events going on around the world in US detention centers, Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba.
It seems unlikely that it's the same few crew members who did all these similar things in all these places.

It's not apparent that these treatment regimens were generated independently. Instead, it seems that these regimens were spread.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
This theory would be more convincing if it weren't for the nearly identical events going on around the world in US detention centers, Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba.
It seems unlikely that it's the same few crew members who did all these similar things in all these places.

It's not apparent that these treatment regimens were generated independently. Instead, it seems that these regimens were spread.

So people separated by thousands of miles and multiple commanders all end up engaging in the same behavior by accident? That argument doesn't logically make sense to me.

I think at least those persons making the argument that the current circumstances puts us in a situation where unprecedented tactics are required are being honest.
 
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