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Bush Approves use of Torture

Middleground

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Simon W. Moon said:
could we please have a citation for this assertion?

I found this interesting article out of many hits. Isn't it interesting that a little sugar will get you much further ahead.

link: http://www.budiansky.com/atlantic0506.html

The Atlantic Monthly | June 2005

The Agenda
Intelligence

Truth Extraction

A classic text on interrogating enemy captives offers a counterintuitive lesson on the best way to get information
by Stephen Budiansky

.....

Six months before the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison broke into public view, a small and fairly obscure private association of United States Marine Corps members posted on its Web site a document on how to get enemy POWs to talk.

The document described a situation very similar to the one the United States faces in the insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan: a fanatical and implacable enemy, intense pressure to achieve quick results, a brutal war in which the old rules no longer seem to apply.

<snip>Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran, the report's author, noted that despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subjects. They were nice to them.<snip>

<snip>But it is hard to imagine a historical lesson that would constitute a more direct reproach to recent U.S. policies on prisoner interrogation. And there is no doubt that Moran's report owes more than a little of its recent celebrity to the widespread disdain among experienced military interrogators for what took place at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo when ill-trained personnel were ordered to "soften up" prisoners. Since the prison scandals broke, many old hands in the business have pointed out that abusing prisoners is not simply illegal and immoral; it is also remarkably ineffective.<snip>

<snip>"The torture of suspects [at Abu Ghraib] did not lead to any useful intelligence information being extracted," says James Corum, a professor at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College and the author of a forthcoming book on counterinsurgency warfare. <snip>

*(bold emphasis mine)
 

Calm2Chaos

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Simon W. Moon said:
Do you have any evidence to suggest that it's likely to have that potential?

Do you have evidence that it isn't?
 

Calm2Chaos

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Surenderer said:
My question is how reliable is information gained by a suspect that is being tortured? I mean wont anybody say anything to make the pain stop...true or untrue?Although I am Muslim I dont have the issues with torture that I guess some here do....I mean if the person is indeed guilty you cant really expect him to respond to questions by saying "please" do you? And if someone knows the crimes for murder or treason is torture and they do it anyway well then why should I feel sorry for them?



peace

Sounds like reasonable thinking to me
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Sounds like reasonable thinking to me

<snip>Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran, the report's author, noted that despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subjects. They were nice to them.<snip>

link: http://www.budiansky.com/atlantic0506.html
 

Calm2Chaos

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Middleground said:
<snip>Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran, the report's author, noted that despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subjects. They were nice to them.<snip>

link: http://www.budiansky.com/atlantic0506.html


Wel good for being nice to them. And the ones that doesn't work with you get un-nice :lol:
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Wel good for being nice to them. And the ones that doesn't work with you get un-nice :lol:


Un-nice does not work. Read the article.

Oops... I might of misconstrued... you're joking, right?
 
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Navy Pride

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Simon W. Moon said:
Do you have any evidence to suggest that it's likely to have that potential?

No I am to low on the totem pole for anyone to tell me but I do know we have not been attacked here since 9/11/01 so it is possible they might have extracted some good info by putting women's panties(and that is torture?) over some of those scumbags heads that prevented another attack.............
 

Simon W. Moon

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Navy Pride said:
No I am to low on the totem pole for anyone to tell me but I do know we have not been attacked here since 9/11/01 so it is possible they might have extracted some good info by putting women's panties(and that is torture?) over some of those scumbags heads that prevented another attack.............
It's also possible that the Great and Revered Invisible Pink Unicorn has single-handed thwarted every attempted attack.
Yet I can't show any more evidence for that theory than you have shown for yours.
Your belief in the efficacy of torture seems to be merely an unquestioned article of faith.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Calm2Chaos said:
Do you have evidence that it isn't?
I have not yet made an assertion as to its efficacy. Hence there's no need for me to produce evidence yet.
 

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Navy Pride said:
No I am to low on the totem pole for anyone to tell me but I do know we have not been attacked here since 9/11/01 so it is possible they might have extracted some good info by putting women's panties(and that is torture?) over some of those scumbags heads that prevented another attack.............


As far as I know, the only other terrorist attack on US soil was the World Trade Center in 1993. So what does that mean? It took Osama and his gang of thugs many years to develop the plan that took the lives of so many innocents on 9/11. I just don't see the connotation between info from tortured prisoners and the lack of attacks on US soil.

And do you actually think that the torture is solely woman's panties on head? And what makes you automatically assume that all the prisoners at Abu Ghraib ad Gitmo are all hard lined terrorists? Were they tried?

You logic does not make sense to me...
 

Simon W. Moon

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Apparently, some of the attorneys we selected to prosecute the folks in Gitmo think that the affair is beneath the dignity of the US.


Leaks suggest US military terror trials rigged

[Two former military prosecutors sent emails to their superiors saying that the] ...military commissions to try detainees ... are rigged, fraudulent and thin on evidence...

"I consider the insistence on pressing ahead with cases that would be marginal even if properly prepared to be a severe threat to the reputation of the military justice system and even a fraud on the American people."
"Surely they don't expect that this fairly half-assed effort is all that we have been able to put together after all this time."
[Major Robert Preston]

"When I volunteered to assist with this process and was assigned to this office, I expected there would at least be a minimal effort to establish a fair process and diligently prepare cases against significant accused."
"Instead, I find a half-hearted and disorganised effort by a skeleton group of relatively inexperienced attorneys to prosecute fairly low-level accused in a process that appears to be rigged."
[Captain John Carr]

"I can tell you that any such assertion is clearly incorrect," he said. "There is absolutely no evidence that it is rigged."
[Brigadier General Thomas Hemingway]
I cannot help but note overly specific denials like that one- "There is absolutely no evidence that it is rigged."

US terror hearings rigged, say prosecutors

...Major Robert Preston described the cases being prepared against the detainees as "marginal" and "a fraud on the American people."

Brig Gen Thomas Hemingway ... [said] a Pentagon inquiry had found that the prosecutors' comments were the result of "miscommunication" or "personality conflicts".
 

cnredd

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Simon W. Moon said:
It's also possible that the Great and Revered Invisible Pink Unicorn has single-handed thwarted every attempted attack.

Nope...asked him last night...He said he had nothing to do with it...
 

Simon W. Moon

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Navy Pride said:
...putting women's panties(and that is torture?)...
No, it's not torture.
Of course, according to the Bush Admin neither is: electrodes on the genitals; bamboo under the fingernails; thumbscrews; electrical shocks; red-hot irons; nor, beatings.

Under the new definition since they don't rise "to the level of death, organ failure, or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" these classics of torture are no longer torture.
 

Simon W. Moon

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cnredd said:
Nope...asked him last night...He said he had nothing to do with it...

Alright then. The IPU never lies.
 

aquapub

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:roll:

Partisan hype. That is all this is topic is based on. Don't beleive everything you read. Consider the source. Bush approves of actually fighting our enemies. I know to liberals that seems like "destroying everything this country stood for," but Bill Clinton's eight-year non-response to Al Queda and Jimmy Carter's devastating, "kiss their ass until they break" strategy just don't cut it in a 9/11 world, so we will continue to use INTERNATIONALLY PRECEDENTED AND ACCEPTED INTERROGATION PRACTICES whether the unemployed (thank God) Democrats want to cry for our enemies (as always) from the sidelines or not. Democrat really need to stop regurgitating laughably biased Anti-American propaganda from Amnesty International. If liberals had any credibility left, they would be losing it in peddling this Disney Villain rhetoric against Bush.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by aquapub:
Partisan hype. That is all this is topic is based on. Don't beleive everything you read. Consider the source. Bush approves of actually fighting our enemies. I know to liberals that seems like "destroying everything this country stood for," but Bill Clinton's eight-year non-response to Al Queda and Jimmy Carter's devastating, "kiss their ass until they break" strategy just don't cut it in a 9/11 world, so we will continue to use INTERNATIONALLY PRECEDENTED AND ACCEPTED INTERROGATION PRACTICES whether the unemployed (thank God) Democrats want to cry for our enemies (as always) from the sidelines or not. Democrat really need to stop regurgitating laughably biased Anti-American propaganda from Amnesty International. If liberals had any credibility left, they would be losing it in peddling this Disney Villain rhetoric against Bush.
Have you forgotton already you f___ing hypocrit that the Administration used to quote Amnesty International when they supported their actions. Now, all of a sudden, when Amnesty speaks out against the Administrations lack of respect for human rights, they are now just a propaganda machine. C'mon. Grow up! How are we going to stop terrorism, when we, in fact, are some of the terrorists!

Did you know we dropped more bombs on Iraq than the entire total of bombs dropped (for both sides) in WWII? That's a whole lotta ordinance.

If you justify torture in any form, then you are anything but an American. This country was started on certain principles that are held to be self evident. Maybe you should go back and read what they are! Until then, take that anti-American crap and stick it where the sun don't shine!

Lastly, since you have issues with Amnesty, I take great pleasure throwing them in your face one more time.

Stop. Investigate. Prosecute.
Stop torture and ill-treatment in the “war on terror”


Human rights are under threat. The ban on torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment – the most universally accepted of human rights – is being undermined. In the “war on terror”, governments are not only using torture and ill-treatment, they are making the case that this is justifiable and necessary.

Those who claim to set their human rights standards high are at the forefront of this assault. The USA is one such government. Their conduct influences governments everywhere, giving comfort to those who commit torture routinely and undermining the very values the “war on terror” is supposed to defend.

They speak of “coercive interrogation” but when the door to torture is opened, the pressure is always upward. If one slap doesn’t work, then a beating will follow. If a beating doesn’t work, what comes next? We see the photographs, hear the testimonies. It is cruel, inhuman; it degrades us all.
 

Simon W. Moon

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First, allow me to complement you on you non sequitur. Very well executed non sequitur. You managed to try and push some buttons, yet were still able to almost completely avoid the subject under discussion.
Bravo! Or should I say brava?.

aquapub said:
...Bill Clinton's eight-year non-response to Al Queda and Jimmy Carter's devastating, "kiss their ass until they break" strategy...
Why leave out Reagan's idea to negiotiate with terrorists? He decided that the good idea was to knuckle under to their demands and sell them arms.
Actually, Reagan said he didn't remember these things, yet he still took responsibility for the goings on in his Admin.
The folks who did negotiate with terrorists demands are walking the halls of power today.
Let's not be all revisionist with American history.

aquapub said:
...INTERNATIONALLY PRECEDENTED AND ACCEPTED INTERROGATION PRACTICES...
Good. that's great. There's not been a problem with these. Well, except for the techniques ones that have been "INTERNATIONALLY PRECEDENTED AND ACCEPTED" by the likes of North Korea, Saudi Arabia, et al.

aquapub said:
Democrat really need to stop regurgitating laughably biased Anti-American propaganda from Amnesty International.
I suppose you have some unkind things to say about Genl Taguba and his patriotism as well?

aquapub said:
If liberals had any credibility left, they would be losing it in peddling this Disney Villain rhetoric against Bush.
Facts don't require credibility. Facts are true no matter who says them.
 

vergiss

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aquapub said:
Bush approves of actually fighting our enemies. I know to liberals that seems like "destroying everything this country stood for,"...

Erm, because it is?

The US is a great land. Do not make it worthy of contempt by sinking to the barbaric level of those we're meant to be fighting. It's the CIA, not the Spanish Inquisition!
 
G

gdalton

It's my first post so I will go easy here.
People it's a WAR we are not having a tickle fight, people are dying on both sides so if smacking some guy upside the head a few hours a day until he gives us some useful info that might save someone’s life (especially when these people target innocent civilians in their attacks) then step aside and let me take a swing.
These people in "getmo" are treated with far more respect then they deserve as is, do you think that if you go to your local jail they are going to give you a copy of your holy book, a prayer rug and three meals a day that conform to you’re dietary beliefs.
Come on guy.
 

Kelzie

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gdalton said:
It's my first post so I will go easy here.
People it's a WAR we are not having a tickle fight, people are dying on both sides so if smacking some guy upside the head a few hours a day until he gives us some useful info that might save someone’s life (especially when these people target innocent civilians in their attacks) then step aside and let me take a swing.
These people in "getmo" are treated with far more respect then they deserve as is, do you think that if you go to your local jail they are going to give you a copy of your holy book, a prayer rug and three meals a day that conform to you’re dietary beliefs.
Come on guy.

First off, yes, local prisons do provide thoses things.

Second off. Torture is wrong. ALWAYS. I don't care if it's war or not. We're supposed to be the good guys.
 
G

gdalton

Kelzie said:
First off, yes, local prisons do provide thoses things.

Second off. Torture is wrong. ALWAYS. I don't care if it's war or not. We're supposed to be the good guys.

Ok, sorry it's been a while since I visisted my local prison so you could be right and yes torture is wrong but even Buddha would kick your ass if he thought it would do more good then harm.
 

Pacridge

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gdalton said:
Ok, sorry it's been a while since I visisted my local prison so you could be right and yes torture is wrong but even Buddha would kick your ass if he thought it would do more good then harm.

Welcome to Debate Politics.

Perhaps, but then I doubt Buddha would ever think violence would produce more good then harm.
 

Deegan

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I could care less what they do to those animals, it's just common knowledge that toture does not work, thus it's just a waste of time, and it hurts our precious image in the world community. Now if you really want them to talk, you take their fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, etc, and you beat the s**t out of them untill they talk.;)
 
G

gdalton

Deegan said:
I could care less what they do to those animals, it's just common knowledge that toture does not work, thus it's just a waste of time, and it hurts our precious image in the world community. Now if you really want them to talk, you take their fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, etc, and you beat the s**t out of them untill they talk.;)

Sounds like a good plan to me.
 

Pacridge

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Deegan said:
I could care less what they do to those animals, it's just common knowledge that toture does not work, thus it's just a waste of time, and it hurts our precious image in the world community. Now if you really want them to talk, you take their fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, etc, and you beat the s**t out of them untill they talk.;)

Yeah that tactic worked well for the Nazi' et el.
 
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