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Bush Approves use of Torture

Billo_Really

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We started out so good.

The REAL Patriot Act
...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm
But that was then, and this is now (or should I say "n[e]ow").

Only US Seeks to Justify Abuse: Human Rights Watch

The US Congress should reject a Senate bill if it includes a White House-proposed amendment that would allow the CIA to abuse prisoners during interrogations, a human rights group said.

Human Rights Watch said that under President George W. Bush, the United States has become "the only government in the world to claim a legal justification for mistreating prisoners during interrogation."

"The administration is setting a dangerous example for the world when it claims that spy agencies are above the law," said Tom Malinowski, Washington director of Human Rights Watch.

"Congress should reject this proposal outright. Otherwise, the United States will have no standing to demand humane treatment if an American falls into the hands of foreign intelligence services," he said in a statement.

The US Senate recently approved 90-9 a bill sponsored by Republican Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham banning military and Central Intelligence Agency use of any "cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment."

However, the Bush administration has approached members of Congress to place a waiver in the bill that would allow the CIA to use cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment on foreign detainees in US custody outside the United States, Human Rights Watch said.

Last week, Vice President Dick Cheney and CIA director Porter Goss met with McCain to propose the presidential waiver for the proposed legislation, the New York-based rights group said.

The proposed waiver says the measure "shall not apply with respect to clandestine counterterrorism operations conducted abroad, with respect to terrorists who are not citizens of the United States, that are carried out by an element of the United States government other than the Department of Defense," according to a copy of the proposal on the group's website.

"While many other governments practice torture and other forms of mistreatment and have records of abuse far worse than the United States, no other government currently claims that such abuse is legally permissible," Human Rights Watch said.

"This exception contains code language that could give the CIA a green light to treat prisoners inhumanely," said Malinowski. "If allowed to stand, it will render President Bush's past pledges about humane treatment meaningless."


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1026-01.htm
It's not too late to do something about this. Next year, one man, one vote. Providing we get a verifiable paper trail.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by GySgt:
Well, this isn't the first time his kind have said these things as millions of Muslims in the Middle East applaud such verbage and act as recruitment pools for Islamic extremists. This kind of speak comes from the mouths of Clerics in Syria and Saudi Arabia. Saddam Hussein was obviously smart enough and concerned over this for his own security, because he did not allow his Clerics to say anything that wasn't approved by him first. He maintained a brutal and oppressive atmosphere under the blanket of "sovereinty." We have just simply been ignoring them over the decades. We have come to a nuclear age where ignoring this region's oppresive, perverted, and abusive leadership is no longer acceptable to our positive security.

I don't "want" to torture. I have interrogated. I'll tell you about it sometime. I'm sure you will define it as torture, but hey...found an IED and he took us to a cache, in which I didn't even ask for. In the mean time, there are Marines and possibly Iraqi civilians walking the earth that otherwise would not be. I know President Bush doesn't "want" to torture. You've simply been made aware of decades old interrogation techniques that we have always employed, seen some pictures of unproffesional nasty National Guardsmen in Abu-Graib, heard a lot of BS stories from released prisoners that only wish to allow the media to "use" them and you have gone insane over it.

The rest of what you said was you just drying your tears. There..there.
Go "Cry me a river", Joe Cocky.

We are throwing everything away. Accusations are not just coming from lefty, whacko, cry-baby website wanna-be's, they are coming from Physicians for Human Rights, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Veterans for Peace, Iraq Veterans against War, International Red Cross, the FBI, current and former Marines (that are not reservists or guardsmen). Objections even came from top military brass after reviewing Alberto Gonzales' re-write of GC terms. Your own top brass said this was not a good idea.

What are you going to say to the next American serviceman that happens to get captured by a terrorist organization? Would you be able to look him in the eye, after? How do you think he would be treated? I know what I would tell him, "I tried, but Gy said no!"
 

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Billo_Really said:
Go "Cry me a river", Joe Cocky.

We are throwing everything away. Accusations are not just coming from lefty, whacko, cry-baby website wanna-be's, they are coming from Physicians for Human Rights, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Veterans for Peace, Iraq Veterans against War, International Red Cross, the FBI, current and former Marines (that are not reservists or guardsmen). Objections even came from top military brass after reviewing Alberto Gonzales' re-write of GC terms. Your own top brass said this was not a good idea.

What are you going to say to the next American serviceman that happens to get captured by a terrorist organization? Would you be able to look him in the eye, after? How do you think he would be treated? I know what I would tell him, "I tried, but Gy said no!"

More drama? Are you a woman? I get confused often.

My top brass didn't say that. Perhaps you are referring to the big mouthed Army Generals who all seem to have a different opinion for the public? Covering your eyes and holding your breath will not stop terrorism. Arresting terrorists here and there will not stop terrorism. Dealing with the civilization will. How's your freedoms? Been enslaved lately? Been oppressed? Just what are we "giving away?"

He'll be treated the same way they have always treated prisoners.

Dry your eyes.
 
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mixedmedia said:
Do you ever wonder about destiny? Are you a religious person, GySgt? Not to pry....you certainly don't have to say more than yes or no.


I don't believe in destiny. I believe we all have our own free will to do what we want. I'm not religious, although, I do believe in an Absent, for the most part,God who has given us free will to do as we please. I believe that man has been given the power to destroy his surroundings and our choices in life will be dealt with in the end.

I am a Christian (not a fanatic) and I am very familiar with Revelations.
 

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tryreading said:
You name a couple of the worst countries, but what about Saudi Arabia, for example, which pretends to be our ally, but produces so many terrorists? A friend of mine says its better to have a brilliant enemy than an incompetent friend.

Saudi has us by the balls. This is why I like the idea of getting oil from Iraq. Maybe we are sowing the seeds to cut ties with Saudi eventually. This thought came to me in Baghdad as we guarded the Ministry of Oil building.
 

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GySgt said:
Saudi has us by the balls. This is why I like the idea of getting oil from Iraq. Maybe we are sowing the seeds to cut ties with Saudi eventually. This thought came to me in Baghdad as we guarded the Ministry of Oil building.

I find this is not common knowledge....

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html

OIL
According to the Oil and Gas Journal, Iraq contains 115 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, the third largest in the world (behind Saudi Arabia and Canada), concentrated overwhelmingly (65 percent or more) in southern Iraq. Estimates of Iraq's oil reserves and resources vary widely, however, given that only about 10 percent of the country has been explored. Some analysts (the Baker Institute, Center for Global Energy Studies, the Federation of American Scientists, etc.) believe, for instance, that deep oil-bearing formations located mainly in the vast Western Desert region could yield large additional oil resources (possibly another 100 billion barrels or more), but have not been explored. Other analysts, such as the U.S. Geological Survey, are not as optimistic, with median estimates for additional oil reserves closer to 45 billion barrels.
 

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GySgt said:
I don't believe in destiny. I believe we all have our own free will to do what we want. I'm not religious, although, I do believe in an Absent, for the most part,God who has given us free will to do as we please. I believe that man has been given the power to destroy his surroundings and our choices in life will be dealt with in the end.

I am a Christian (not a fanatic) and I am very familiar with Revelations.

I had lunch with my mom today and she was telling me about a book she just read...

this one

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...bs_b_2_1/104-4529001-3952764?v=glance&s=books

from what I understand it makes many of the same observations about Islam as you do....it applies them to all religions but Islam in particular as a religion particularly steeped in violence.

I am not religious. Was not raised with any religion. But I can't help but wonder about biblical prophecy and whether it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy for mankind.

But anyway, I'm going to get this book from her this weekend and read it.

And Islam could have used a New Testament.
 

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Originally Posted by GySgt:
More drama? Are you a woman? I get confused often.

My top brass didn't say that. Perhaps you are referring to the big mouthed Army Generals who all seem to have a different opinion for the public? Covering your eyes and holding your breath will not stop terrorism. Arresting terrorists here and there will not stop terrorism. Dealing with the civilization will. How's your freedoms? Been enslaved lately? Been oppressed? Just what are we "giving away?"

He'll be treated the same way they have always treated prisoners.

Dry your eyes.
Tito, give me a tissue!

We are not going to stop terrorism until we start looking at our role in causing terrorism. It's irresponible to think that we go without sin. That we do not, on some level, have a hand in this.

My freedoms are shrinking because of the hysteria that got the Patriot Act passed, the arrogance that were the big bad USA and we can do whatever we want with impunity and the complete stupidity and narcissism of my countryman in electing the little corporate bitches that are outsourcing all our jobs.

Back to my stance on torture.

There is nothing you can say to me that can justify torturing anyone, for any reason, at anytime, for any information and for any lives that might be saved. I don't care if it would save the life of Jesus Christ. No torture. Not now. Not ever. To anyone. Anytime. For any reason. No torture.

What were giving up is everything this country stood for. Because this road were going down is making all the other troops that lost there lives have now died in vane.
 

tryreading

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GySgt said:
Saudi has us by the balls. This is why I like the idea of getting oil from Iraq. Maybe we are sowing the seeds to cut ties with Saudi eventually. This thought came to me in Baghdad as we guarded the Ministry of Oil building.

This is some good stuff I stumbled across about Saudi Arabia and the region, and how they ineptly deal with the terrorists in their midst. Kind of a long read, but once I got started I couldn't stop until I read every word. Good footnotes and links, too.

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2005/issue3/jv9no3a1.html
 
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Originally Posted by GySgt
Saudi has us by the balls. This is why I like the idea of getting oil from Iraq. Maybe we are sowing the seeds to cut ties with Saudi eventually. This thought came to me in Baghdad as we guarded the Ministry of Oil building.
"Oil..oil...oil...oil...oil...oil....this is all you have strength for?"
- Gy on post #612 of this thread.

Yeah, we guarded the Oil building and stood by while the rest of the country was looted.
 

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Billo_Really said:
"Oil..oil...oil...oil...oil...oil....this is all you have strength for?"
- Gy on post #612 of this thread.

Yeah, we guarded the Oil building and stood by while the rest of the country was looted.


Pathetic attempt. Oil has always been one of the reasons. I just don't solely focus on it. That would be your job.

Nobody stood by while the rest of the country was looted. We also guarded the license plate issue warehouse and the police headquarters buildings. I guess the media wasn't concerned with that. This would be more of your ignorance shining through. Anything that had to do with Saddam was burnt to the ground. We guarded infrastructure. It is very easy to see through your posts. You have a habit of purposefully disregarding anything that doesn't paint what you want the world to see. It's sad really.
 

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Originally posted by GySgt:
Pathetic attempt. Oil has always been one of the reasons. I just don't solely focus on it. That would be your job.

Nobody stood by while the rest of the country was looted. We also guarded the license plate issue warehouse and the police headquarters buildings. I guess the media wasn't concerned with that. This would be more of your ignorance shining through. Anything that had to do with Saddam was burnt to the ground. We guarded infrastructure.
The only thing that is pathetic is you running around trying to get everyone to see the emperors new clothes.
 

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mixedmedia said:
I had lunch with my mom today and she was telling me about a book she just read...

this one

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...bs_b_2_1/104-4529001-3952764?v=glance&s=books

from what I understand it makes many of the same observations about Islam as you do....it applies them to all religions but Islam in particular as a religion particularly steeped in violence.

I am not religious. Was not raised with any religion. But I can't help but wonder about biblical prophecy and whether it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy for mankind.

But anyway, I'm going to get this book from her this weekend and read it.

And Islam could have used a New Testament.


I've payed particular attention to Revelations. It speaks on a lot of things that are happening with the Middle East. Is it true? I don't know. You won't hear (see) me typing that it is "fact", but I am aware of what is written.

I don't have a problem with Islam itself. It's the region and the way it's hardliners have chosen to use it to oppress and murder it's own believers and my people that get me going. Out of all of the religions, Islam stands apart, especially in that region. In the "Dark Ages" of Catholicism, power was held over the ignorant who could not read latin and understand the word of God. It was dictated and perverted towards the people. From this came the "Protester" and there was violence between people. The "protesters" became "Protestants" and King James translated the Bible for all to read. This is how I see the Middle East - there is no free flow of information and "sinners" are more scared of man's punishment then answering to "Allah." What makes today's problems worse than any other religions "Dark Age" is that this is the 21st Century and it is an extremely dangerous and desperate situation for everyone because of technology.

And yes. I agree. A New Testament might have been helpful.
 

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Billo_Really said:
The only thing that is pathetic is you running around trying to get everyone to see the emperors new clothes.


What's wrong with that? He shops at some very good stores.

Truth is truth, rather you want to see it or not. The Middle East is a disaster of a region and spending all your effort to show where your country errs is extremely sad. This would be a personal problem as your feeble minded flip flopping has proven to all.
 

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Billo_Really said:
We are not going to stop terrorism until we start looking at our role in causing terrorism. It's irresponible to think that we go without sin. That we do not, on some level, have a hand in this.

My freedoms are shrinking because of the hysteria that got the Patriot Act passed, the arrogance that were the big bad USA and we can do whatever we want with impunity and the complete stupidity and narcissism of my countryman in electing the little corporate bitches that are outsourcing all our jobs.

Back to my stance on torture.

There is nothing you can say to me that can justify torturing anyone, for any reason, at anytime, for any information and for any lives that might be saved. I don't care if it would save the life of Jesus Christ. No torture. Not now. Not ever. To anyone. Anytime. For any reason. No torture.

What were giving up is everything this country stood for. Because this road were going down is making all the other troops that lost there lives have now died in vane.


This is what I'm talking about. Just how do we cause terrorism? I've written on our contribution to the problem. Let's hear what you think you know? I don't want to hear that we "drop bombs all over the populous and cause massive deaths," because that is a stupid thing to say and highly untrue. Let's hear why you think we are the cause of Islamic extremism for the last thirty years......

Again..this is what I'm talking about. Just how are your freedoms shrinking? It seems to me that the hysteria is mostly coming from people who are caught in a tidal wave of panic over nothing. How are you suffering from the Patriot Act? Outsourcing jobs? This is a President Bush thing? This isn't a free-trade or free-enterprise thing? Which, by the way, is one of your freedoms that you are so dramatically concerned about losing. It seems to me like you want to pick and choose which freedoms to strip and which to keep. How egotistical of you. Just how have your freedoms been "shrinking" away?

I didn't say anything to you about torture. You have your opinion...I have my opinion based of reality. There it ends.

Died in vain? Is your life different now than it was 5 years ago? Have you been tossed in a Gulag? Have you been oppressed for your beliefs? Have your phone lines been tapped? Are you under surveillence? Have you been imprisoned for practicing something after the Patriot Act that you have always practiced before? 24 million people are no longer under Saddam and have a chance to create a future that you presently enjoy. A dictator that was very much a symptom of the Middle East no longer has any influence for any other dictator or tyrant in the Middle East. Until the region embraces a social change, terrorism will continue to flourish and leaving Saddam in power would have just encouraged others to defy America. Died in Vain?...maybe in your eyes, but not to the eyes that matter.
 

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Originally posted by GySgt:
What's wrong with that? He shops at some very good stores.
Awesome! Now that's a good comeback, dude. I want to comment on your following posts but I have to wait because this reply took me right out of my game face. As soon as I can stop laughing, we'll get back into it.

This came out of nowhere and smacked me up side my head. I love it. It reminds me of something I would say. Your no ***** when it comes to the comedy.

Good one, dude!

I'll be back.
 
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