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Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver mail

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I would just like to point out that the legal definition of secrete differs slightly from the more common usage you provide.

The legal definition of secrete is basically to hide or conceal (you can search for it in Black's Law Dictionary (thelawdictionary.org). This meaning is further reinforced by an earlier version's use of the word "secrets" which was updated to "secretes" in 1949 as an update in language.

I believe your interpretation of this particular law is inaccurate based on this distinction.

Wow you're actually correct, even though your point is both pedantic and pointless.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I don't read that statement as being "on the side of the business." I read that more as "Sorry for your inconvenience; we are doing our job."
Kind of a passive aggressive way of saying, "we're so sad to hear about how you don't like the way your mail is being delivered: on time."

In order for me to think they are fully on the side of the business, I would expect it to read something along the lines of "apologizes for the disruption in service; this issue will be resolved shortly."

Okay, your interpretation is irrelevant. It is trivially obvious that what the mail carrier did was illegal and the result of bigotry.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Secrete: to discharge, generate, or release

Mail was released on the video.

The mail that was released on the video was obviously released to a customer of the establishment who was not an employee accepting the mail.

Releasing mail to one who is not the addressee is illegal.

Obviously, the mail was illegally released, as shown on the video and as described in exquisite detail to you.

Prove that the carrier knew or should have known the person was a customer and not an employee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The short of it is, the USPS is dying and it's still a vital service for many. It does not at all help when carriers pull crap like this. We all know it can be a dangerous and sucky job in many places. This carrier just makes folks not want to continue supporting the USPS.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Prove that the carrier knew or should have known the person was a customer and not an employee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unless she had proof that person was an employee then you are admitting the carrier was in the wring by passing off the mail.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Prove that the carrier knew or should have known the person was a customer and not an employee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sure acted like a typical customer
left the environs of the business
interacted with the mail carrier such that the customer received the parcel of mail
and returned to the store carrying said mail bundle

isn't that how a typical customer shops
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Wow you're actually correct, even though your point is both pedantic and pointless.

Lol! u mad, bro? Our legal system is a pedant's paradise and if you think details like these are "pointless" you're practically begging to get skull-****** in a courtroom someday.

Okay, your interpretation is irrelevant. It is trivially obvious that what the mail carrier did was illegal and the result of bigotry.

It appears that you have an intolerance for people who hold a different opinion than you. Assuming you're correct about the matter of this postal employee's motivation, it would provide a wonderful example of the saying: "it takes one to know one." With regards to the legality of the act, you'll have to forgive me for not putting much stock in the opinions of a legal dilettante such as yourself.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

sure acted like a typical customer
left the environs of the business
interacted with the mail carrier such that the customer received the parcel of mail
and returned to the store carrying said mail bundle

isn't that how a typical customer shops

This post is delightfully ambiguous. I can't quite tell if it's sarcastic in support or sarcastic in opposition of the person quoted. Then again, I think my sarcasm detector is broken (my wife's fault), so perhaps I'm the only one who enjoys the ambiguity.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Prove that the carrier knew or should have known the person was a customer and not an employee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seriously ? The confused look, the hesitance to accept the letters, the need for directions- none of these are sufficient for you ?
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Lol! u mad, bro? Our legal system is a pedant's paradise and if you think details like these are "pointless" you're practically begging to get skull-****** in a courtroom someday.



It appears that you have an intolerance for people who hold a different opinion than you. Assuming you're correct about the matter of this postal employee's motivation, it would provide a wonderful example of the saying: "it takes one to know one." With regards to the legality of the act, you'll have to forgive me for not putting much stock in the opinions of a legal dilettante such as yourself.

Your point was ridiculously pedantic because there were several layers of redundancy. Refusing to deliver the mail due to an invalid reason is an illegal delay. If you had paid any level of attention to a single link posted in this thread, you would probably know this already. Not delivering someone's mail because you don't like them is not permitted. Did you not know that ?

On the contrary, i'm happy to tolerate people i don't like, and what i'm specifically targeting is a public servant whose intolerance has resulted in violating a legal service agreement. My contention is that they violated a service agreement. I am not impugning private citizens ability to harbor prejudice against another group; what i am doing is condemning unlawful exercises of said prejudice.

It seems you would prefer to let bigots break laws without consequence. I am glad that most Americans disagree with you.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

On the contrary, i'm happy to tolerate people i don't like, and what i'm specifically targeting is a public servant whose intolerance has resulted in violating a legal service agreement.
It seems you would prefer to let bigots break laws without consequence. I am glad that most Americans disagree with you.


You are making several ridiculous assumptions (even a few that are demonstrably incorrect). Let me address each in kind.

1. That this employee would have no other reason besides personal distaste to not enter the premises of the pot shop.

There are several valid reasons beyond personal distaste for this employee to not enter the pot shop. Chief among which is that pot is a federally controlled substance. While her entering the store in her federal duties would not likely result in any negative consequences for her, her refusal to do so is defensible and understandable considering the political grey area she finds herself in. You not believing that is a valid legal reason means exactly **** in a legal determination of the validity of such a reason.

2. The employee has a legal obligation to enter the business to deliver mail.

This employee is not legally obligated to enter the premises of any business that she delivers to unless an agreement with the postmaster is already in place (e.g., there is a certified pick-up or delivery bin within the building). She has no obligation to step into the store to make the delivery. Other businesses that she may enter is out of courtesy, not an obligation. The business owner has been made aware of this and requested that the business follow legal requirements by making available an externally available drop-off or meeting the mail at the door to facilitate delivery. You assume otherwise for no apparent reason other than your own emotional response to the situation.

3. That the postal employee is breaking a clear law in handing the mail off to an intermediary to facilitate the last approximately 10 feet of delivery.

There is an arguable point to be made here, but I'm not entirely sure she broke any law here, either. None of her actions here led to any actual crime being committed - the mail was delivered to the appropriate person at the appropriate address is a quick and efficient manner considering the most likely alternative was the delay of delivery by at least a few hours as someone would have either had to go to the post office to pick up the mail later in the day or the delivery would have been re-attempted the following day. Realize that it would have been a felony of the intermediary to open or steal the mail they had been entrusted to walk 10 feet with. You must also acknowledge that the person that the request was made to already clearly demonstrated the ability to do said task, freely agreed to do it, and actually did it. While this may be less than ideal for the person being delivered to, this represents an attempt at a middle-ground by the employee done in good faith. Considering that the actions in this case likely resulted in a quicker delivery of the mail with minimal-to-no risk of non-fulfillment of delivery, and in light of the owner's ongoing inability and flat out refusal to acknowledge the requests and legal obligations of the USPS, I do not reasonably believe that a case can be made against this employee that would involve punishment of any kind.

And lastly, you're clearly incapable of seeing this situation with anything that resembles a reasonable and impartial perspective. You DO NOT KNOW the motivations of this employee and you have no undeniable proof that any law has been broken. Additionally, you make baseless assumptions about my and others' behavior (why yes, I have read the entire thread and the links therein. Thank you!) and use those assumptions to disregard my opinion. You appear more interested in launching personal assaults against the people who disagree with you than you are with understanding others' points of view. Certainly your actions more closely resemble that of a bigot than of the person who delivers the mail to this pot shop. At least she is making an effort to find middle ground to get them their mail; you aren't even trying to understand the situation as other people see it unless their opinion already matches your own.

You say you are capable of tolerating those you don't like, but that doesn't exclude you from being a bigot right now. In order to not be a bigot you have to be capable of tolerating those you disagree with and not just those you dislike. Now I can admit that perhaps that's pedantic of me; that doesn't make you less a bigot in this situation.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

You are making several ridiculous assumptions (even a few that are demonstrably incorrect). Let me address each in kind.

1. That this employee would have no other reason besides personal distaste to not enter the premises of the pot shop.

There are several valid reasons beyond personal distaste for this employee to not enter the pot shop. Chief among which is that pot is a federally controlled substance. While her entering the store in her federal duties would not likely result in any negative consequences for her, her refusal to do so is defensible and understandable considering the political grey area she finds herself in. You not believing that is a valid legal reason means exactly **** in a legal determination of the validity of such a reason.

You got it wrong from the start. She does not get to make that determination (legality/illegality of delivery) and it is not understandable. There is no political grey area here. Her employer, the USPS and her direct supervisor have said she should be delivering to them. This is no different than the licensed pharmacist who won't fill your legal prescription for abortifacients because they don't believe in using them.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

You are making several ridiculous assumptions (even a few that are demonstrably incorrect). Let me address each in kind.

1. That this employee would have no other reason besides personal distaste to not enter the premises of the pot shop.

There are several valid reasons beyond personal distaste for this employee to not enter the pot shop. Chief among which is that pot is a federally controlled substance. While her entering the store in her federal duties would not likely result in any negative consequences for her, her refusal to do so is defensible and understandable considering the political grey area she finds herself in. You not believing that is a valid legal reason means exactly **** in a legal determination of the validity of such a reason.

2. The employee has a legal obligation to enter the business to deliver mail.

This employee is not legally obligated to enter the premises of any business that she delivers to unless an agreement with the postmaster is already in place (e.g., there is a certified pick-up or delivery bin within the building). She has no obligation to step into the store to make the delivery. Other businesses that she may enter is out of courtesy, not an obligation. The business owner has been made aware of this and requested that the business follow legal requirements by making available an externally available drop-off or meeting the mail at the door to facilitate delivery. You assume otherwise for no apparent reason other than your own emotional response to the situation.

3. That the postal employee is breaking a clear law in handing the mail off to an intermediary to facilitate the last approximately 10 feet of delivery.

There is an arguable point to be made here, but I'm not entirely sure she broke any law here, either. None of her actions here led to any actual crime being committed - the mail was delivered to the appropriate person at the appropriate address is a quick and efficient manner considering the most likely alternative was the delay of delivery by at least a few hours as someone would have either had to go to the post office to pick up the mail later in the day or the delivery would have been re-attempted the following day. Realize that it would have been a felony of the intermediary to open or steal the mail they had been entrusted to walk 10 feet with. You must also acknowledge that the person that the request was made to already clearly demonstrated the ability to do said task, freely agreed to do it, and actually did it. While this may be less than ideal for the person being delivered to, this represents an attempt at a middle-ground by the employee done in good faith. Considering that the actions in this case likely resulted in a quicker delivery of the mail with minimal-to-no risk of non-fulfillment of delivery, and in light of the owner's ongoing inability and flat out refusal to acknowledge the requests and legal obligations of the USPS, I do not reasonably believe that a case can be made against this employee that would involve punishment of any kind.

...

You say you are capable of tolerating those you don't like, but that doesn't exclude you from being a bigot right now. In order to not be a bigot you have to be capable of tolerating those you disagree with and not just those you dislike. Now I can admit that perhaps that's pedantic of me; that doesn't make you less a bigot in this situation.

1. False, i did not speculate on the motives or excuses behind the discrimination, i simply pointed out the discrimination as evidence of intolerance.

2. True, but it's not an assumption, it is proven fact. The employee has an obligation to enter the business. That's why it's stated that way under "Business": because they are expected to enter a business in order to deliver mail.

Their job is to deliver mail, if you are claiming that they are not obligated to enter a business, find some justification for your claim, after all, i did.

3. True, but it's not an assumption, it is proven fact. The employee has an obligation to ensure that the mail is ONLY delivered to the addressee. If that cannot be accomplished for any reason, the mail should not be delivered.

Again, you are confusing a proven fact with an assumption.

The rest of your blathering is ad hominem.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Unless she had proof that person was an employee then you are admitting the carrier was in the wring by passing off the mail.

Not how it works. She doesn't have to have proof the person is an employee.


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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Seriously ? The confused look, the hesitance to accept the letters, the need for directions- none of these are sufficient for you ?

The whole interaction was less than a second and you couldn't see the persons face who was receiving the mail. There was no audio and no way to verify need for direction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

1. False, i did not speculate on the motives or excuses behind the discrimination, i simply pointed out the discrimination as evidence of intolerance.

2. True, but it's not an assumption, it is proven fact. The employee has an obligation to enter the business. That's why it's stated that way under "Business": because they are expected to enter a business in order to deliver mail.

Their job is to deliver mail, if you are claiming that they are not obligated to enter a business, find some justification for your claim, after all, i did.

3. True, but it's not an assumption, it is proven fact. The employee has an obligation to ensure that the mail is ONLY delivered to the addressee. If that cannot be accomplished for any reason, the mail should not be delivered.

Again, you are confusing a proven fact with an assumption.

The rest of your blathering is ad hominem.

USPS
Handbook M-41
City Delivery Carriers Duties and Responsibilities
131.38 Arrange with business firms to make delivery at or near the front door.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

You got it wrong from the start. She does not get to make that determination (legality/illegality of delivery) and it is not understandable. There is no political grey area here. Her employer, the USPS and her direct supervisor have said she should be delivering to them. This is no different than the licensed pharmacist who won't fill your legal prescription for abortifacients because they don't believe in using them.
Correct, Uncle Sam gets to make that determination and has done so.

USPS has stated no such policies, if they even exist I cannot find them published
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Correct, Uncle Sam gets to make that determination and has done so.

USPS has stated no such policies, if they even exist I cannot find them published

What policies? The USPS and her supervisory Post Master have said she should be delivering their mail to them. They made their determination and it was against the carrier. You are asserting she had a right to do what she did at odds with what reps from the USPS have said.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

USPS
Handbook M-41
City Delivery Carriers Duties and Responsibilities
131.38 Arrange with business firms to make delivery at or near the front door.

Great, so enter the building, but ARRANGE to stay near the door. That says nothing about forcing the business to comply with arbitrary demands about outdoor delivery.

I did notice these though, so thanks for undermining your own case even more:

131.34 Exhibit mail to the addressee only.

131.35 Deliver mail according to the instructions or known desire of the addressee. Otherwise, deliver as addressed if the addressee has not moved. Make inquiry, if necessary, and return the mail to the post office if still in doubt.

131.39 Make deliveries to all floors of office and business buildings if there is an elevator and if the offices are open to receive the mail or if a door slot is provided:

a. If there is no elevator, make deliveries to the first floor; make deliveries to the second floor if it is occupied primarily by business offices and if the service is requested.
b. Do not withdraw service previously inaugurated in order to comply with these instructions.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Correct, Uncle Sam gets to make that determination and has done so.

USPS has stated no such policies, if they even exist I cannot find them published

The mail carrier is not allowed to hand someone's mail to a stranger on the street and the mail carrier is not allowed to stop delivering mail for no reason.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Great, so enter the building, but ARRANGE to stay near the door. That says nothing about forcing the business to comply with arbitrary demands about outdoor delivery.
it also doesn't say anything about forcing the letter carrier to comply with arbitrary indoor demands.

I did notice these though, so thanks for undermining your own case even more:

131.34 Exhibit mail to the addressee only.

if the addressee is the business it may be given to any agent of the said business.

131.35 Deliver mail according to the instructions or known desire of the addressee. Otherwise, deliver as addressed if the addressee has not moved. Make inquiry, if necessary, and return the mail to the post office if still in doubt.

mail was delivered as addressed. instructions also refers to delivery instructions according to the postmaster, not the exacting demands on unreasonable customers, just because Ray Kroc said
the customer is always right" does not mean you get to have your mcdonalds service to unreasonable demands. in fact sections 112 and 131 permit the letter carrier to take reasonable accomodations for their safety.

131.39 Make deliveries to all floors of office and business buildings if there is an elevator and if the offices are open to receive the mail or if a door slot is provided:
Irrelevant, single story non-office building
a. If there is no elevator, make deliveries to the first floor; make deliveries to the second floor if it is occupied primarily by business offices and if the service is requested.
again irrelevant, see above.
b. Do not withdraw service previously inaugurated in order to comply with these instructions.
inagurated service is service provided for within policy. which you've posted no policy requiring hand delivering mail to criminal drug dealers inside their illegal enterprise.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The mail carrier is not allowed to hand someone's mail to a stranger on the street and the mail carrier is not allowed to stop delivering mail for no reason.

Except it was not delivered "to a stranger, on the street" is was delivered to an individual in that business who may have represented themselves as an agent of the business, and functionally acted as one.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

What policies? The USPS and her supervisory Post Master have said she should be delivering their mail to them. They made their determination and it was against the carrier. You are asserting she had a right to do what she did at odds with what reps from the USPS have said.

Hartwell and a manager at The Reef said the post office requested they install mail drop boxes outside their shops. Both said that solution would be expensive and impractical

Swanson said the carrier had been instructed to deliver to the businesses. But Hartwell said Monday that she still was not receiving mail at the proper address.

The postal service told them to install a mail box at their criminal drug distribution center, they refused, the postmaster asked her to deliver to the business, it was delivered to the business, an actual legal business, an arcade owned by the same woman down the street. the instructions were followed, business mail was delivered.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The postman would be breaking the law by delivering the mail? I don't see it. What could he be charged with?

depending on what he is picking up and delivering trafficking would be 1 crime he could be charged with.
aiding and abetting could be another.
 
Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

You got it wrong from the start. She does not get to make that determination (legality/illegality of delivery) and it is not understandable.
actually she does. She is by law allowed to not deliver something that would put her in a position of violating another law.
pot is not federally legal. therefore her doing anything to further business for that could in fact find her being charged in a criminal event.

There is no political grey area here. Her employer, the USPS and her direct supervisor have said she should be delivering to them. This is no different than the licensed pharmacist who won't fill your legal prescription for abortifacients because they don't believe in using them.

yep federal law says that pot is illegal. she has the right to excuse herself from criminal activity or being involved in any activity that could
be deemed criminal.
 
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