Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver mail

[Absentglare]

knocking on the door qualifies



hooray does your boss deal drugs?

deliveries that require signatures are nearly always packages, which this postwoman is not delivering, she is a letter carrier who walks a route, packages are delivered off of vehicle routes unless they're really small.


not the way you want it come hell or high water. I have already posted the manual for delivery. it does not include an obligation to step inside of businesses, only to deliver to an agent if one is available and no letter box. ,

no laws were violated, whether or not it is bigotry is irrelevant. you're not required to compromise your safety or legal interests on the job.

The same carrier walks into other local businesses.

Did you miss the part where the USPS spokesperson clearly said that the Postal Service’s policy is to deliver mail to recreational marijuana businesses in the same way it would for any other customer ? Or do you think you know more about USPS policy than the USPS spokesperson ?

Your presumptions about packages are a red herring.

It does include an obligation to step inside a business. You simply refuse to acknowledge what it means when it says they are expected to deliver the mail to a "Call Window". I cited the policy for you with exactitude.

The law was violated. That's why the article clearly stated that it was illegal. That's why what i pointed out shows that it's clearly against USPS policy.

and if the post carrier walks up and sees someone dealing drugs by the call window or cluster boxes they're not obligated to complete that delivery while the drug dealing is progress.

That's completely false. Did you see the part where the USPS spokesperson clearly stated that it is the Postal Service’s policy is to deliver mail to recreational marijuana businesses in the same way it would for any other customer ?

What a joke. If this had happened to a liquor store, the carrier could be in prison, and that is absolutely "drug dealing" (what a pathetic appeal to emotion).

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

We don't get regular mail where I work. I don't imagine they would come inside if we did.


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May i ask why you would imagine that ?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The same carrier walks into other local businesses.

irrelevant
and in fact other carriers have refused to walk into other, actually legal, businesses and been accomodated, thus the right to refuse to enter businesses is a "prior labor practice" from the stand point of a unionized employer. if you're union ask your shop steward about that.

Did you miss the part where the USPS spokesperson clearly said that the Postal Service’s policy is to deliver mail to recreational marijuana businesses in the same way it would for any other customer ? Or do you think you know more about USPS policy than the USPS spokesperson ?

a statement to the media is not policy, it's PR. you should know that likewise.

Your presumptions about packages are a red herring.

no they're not.

It does include an obligation to step inside a business. You simply refuse to acknowledge what it means when it says they are expected to deliver the mail to a "Call Window". I cited the policy for you with exactitude.

it states that is an option that businesses can utilize. it's also subject to the discretion of the postmaster.

The law was violated. That's why the article clearly stated that it was illegal. That's why what i pointed out shows that it's clearly against USPS policy.

The media gets issues of law wrong all the time, the same article stated pot is legal in Washington, no it is not. Washington is in the United States where marihuana is illegal, the correct statement would've been "certain forms of marihuana are legal under the Revised Code of Washington" but instead they falsely stated this is a "legal potshop" nowhere under the flag of the US does such a thing exist. so we can't take the word of the media story on law at face value. in fact we have already reviewed the statute, and she clearly hasn't violated it. go ask a lawyer.

That's completely false. Did you see the part where the USPS spokesperson clearly stated that it is the Postal Service’s policy is to deliver mail to recreational marijuana businesses in the same way it would for any other customer ?

I did see that part, same as I did not see a written policy on the issue.

What a joke. If this had happened to a liquor store, the carrier could be in prison, and that is absolutely "drug dealing" (what a pathetic appeal to emotion).

the carrier would not be sent to prison for refusal to enter a liquor store, if past is prologue this hypothetical postman would probably have been reasonably accomodated just like the religious postman several years ago wouldn't enter Elmos adult books and novelties and the postmaster overruled their complaints and asked they install a box.

Call it whatever you want, selling liquor pursuant to state and federal licenses is legal, dealing schedule 1 controlled substances is not, which is the issue you simply refuse to acknowledge.

 

[Absentglare]

irrelevant
and in fact other carriers have refused to walk into other, actually legal, businesses and been accomodated, thus the right to refuse to enter businesses is a "prior labor practice" from the stand point of a unionized employer. if you're union ask your shop steward about that.


a statement to the media is not policy, it's PR. you should know that likewise.


no they're not.


it states that is an option that businesses can utilize. it's also subject to the discretion of the postmaster.

The media gets issues of law wrong all the time, the same article stated pot is legal in Washington, no it is not. Washington is in the United States where marihuana is illegal, the correct statement would've been "certain forms of marihuana are legal under the Revised Code of Washington" but instead they falsely stated this is a "legal potshop" nowhere under the flag of the US does such a thing exist. so we can't take the word of the media story on law at face value. in fact we have already reviewed the statute, and she clearly hasn't violated it. go ask a lawyer.





I did see that part, same as I did not see a written policy on the issue.



the carrier would not be sent to prison for refusal to enter a liquor store, if past is prologue this hypothetical postman would probably have been reasonably accomodated just like the religious postman several years ago wouldn't enter Elmos adult books and novelties and the postmaster overruled their complaints and asked they install a box.

Call it whatever you want, selling liquor pursuant to state and federal licenses is legal, dealing schedule 1 controlled substances is not, which is the issue you simply refuse to acknowledge.

Okay, so you do think that the USPS spokesperson lied or that you know USPS policy better than they do.

It is an admissible means of receiving mail at a business. It is specified as the NON-EXCEPTION. It is the RULE. The USPS must deliver mail to a call window if a call window is the mail receptacle that a business provides. It is an explicitly permitted receptacle.

So you're brazenly denying reality, denying not only the USPS spokesperson and all of the news articleS, but also denying the unambiguous letter of USPS policy. Your response above has no substance beyond outright denials, non sequiturs, and red herrings.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Okay, so you do think that the USPS spokesperson lied or that you know USPS policy better than they do.

I don't think there is a policy addressing pot shops. If there is I don't think it existed prior to the media story.

They haven't provided it in writing.

It is an admissible means of receiving mail at a business. It is specified as the NON-EXCEPTION. It is the RULE. The USPS must deliver mail to a call window if a call window is the mail receptacle that a business provides. It is an explicitly permitted receptacle.

Irrelevant sinc this business does not have a call window or internal receptacle. Or any receptacle, and workers cannot be legally required to enter unsafe or illegal situations under federal law

So you're brazenly denying reality, denying not only the USPS spokesperson and all of the news articleS, but also denying the unambiguous letter of USPS policy. Your response above has no substance beyond outright denials, non sequiturs, and red herrings.

I have not denied reality, in fact it is you who is doing so. You have not acknowledged this is an illegal business when it clearly is, you have not acknowledged that no statute forbids anything this carrier has done, you along with the media have implied without evidence she's witholding a registered letter, you have shown no knowledge of how union shops operate, you've introduced as an argument a policy on call windows when no call window exists at this business. Have I missed anything here?
Oh yeah, the delivery policy that actually covers this form of delivery which I cited didn't meet your view so you ignored it and argued a call window policy on a chapter dealing with institutional mail delivery (where multiple addressees have mail delivered to a central desk or mail room) and in fact you do not even know what the letter carriers concerns are but want to kick her to street and take away a career and benefits on the complaint of a criminal drug dealer (and you flat out deny that as well, it's amazing that you were willing to send a worker to Susanville for 3 to 5 on the biggest most longshot stretch of a mail tamper statute anyone has ever seen, but bristle with phony outrage that I've correctly called out this pot dealer for unquestionably violating the law. I guess some pigs are more equal then others on Absentglares farm)

 

[Patrickt]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I think the mailman is wrong but I also suspect he's a member of two unions. It is so fashionable to claim that your personal preferences involve an allergy that I'm surprised he didn't get a note from a doctor saying he was allergic to marijuana.

How about mailmen who won't deliver mail to a church? How about a mailman who won't deliver mail to 666 Main Street? How about refusing to enter a casino, a bar, or a liquor store to deliver mail?

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I think the mailman is wrong but I also suspect he's a member of two unions. It is so fashionable to claim that your personal preferences involve an allergy that I'm surprised he didn't get a note from a doctor saying he was allergic to marijuana.

How about mailmen who won't deliver mail to a church? How about a mailman who won't deliver mail to 666 Main Street? How about refusing to enter a casino, a bar, or a liquor store to deliver mail?

They are free to refuse to enter the establishment so long as they actually deliver the mail. There is a difference. And nothing in the codes for postal delivery require a mail carrier to enter an establishment to deliver the mail. The business is supposed to provide either some sort of approved box or someone to accept the mail (which still doesn't have to be inside the business).


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[Patrickt]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

They are free to refuse to enter the establishment so long as they actually deliver the mail. There is a difference. And nothing in the codes for postal delivery require a mail carrier to enter an establishment to deliver the mail. The business is supposed to provide either some sort of approved box or someone to accept the mail (which still doesn't have to be inside the business).


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That point has already been made. And I believe someone pointed out that he goes in other businesses but not that one. As for arcane Postal Service rules, I really don't care. The oustanding service provided spurs private enterprise.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

That point has already been made. And I believe someone pointed out that he goes in other businesses but not that one. As for arcane Postal Service rules, I really don't care. The oustanding service provided spurs private enterprise.

She. And it doesn't matter if she is willing to step into some businesses but not others. Going into those businesses is a courtesy, not an obligation. And if it is pushed, it will more likely lead to her not going inside those others businesses than it would to forcing her to go into this business. It is traditional. And as far as I know, type of business you have is not a protected class under equal protection laws, especially not when the business is a) illegal under federal laws (even if not currently enforced) and b) could be considered potentially dangerous.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

wonder where the postal carrier union stands on this
the federal employee is obligated to follow direct orders but not if the order is an illegal one
is an order to deliver mail to a federally illegal enterprise a legal order?

the federal prohibition is the reason why marijuana vendors are unable to deposit their business' money in banks/S&Ls/credit unions (all are subject to federal auditing)
if the federal prohibition is responsible for that denial of bank service, would it be a distant reach to also be the basis for the delivery of mail by federal carriers

surprised the weed shop owner is being uncooperative. would think such an enterprise would want to create as few waves as possible

what proof do we have that the shop owner ever sent a certified return receipt requested letter. a receipt is available to be retained by the sender to document such a letter was sent. has that receipt been offered into evidence

my spouse is very sensitive to smells. intense perfume aroma in a restaurant can set her off gagging, causing us to leave if we cannot find a table unaffected by the highly perfumed woman. for this reason, i must seal my skunk weed (named that for a reason) in a thermos to be placed in the freezer so that she is not confronted with its smell. wonder if this mail carrier has a similar issue that requires such accommodation as a mail slot/mail receptacle. something the shop owner refuses to install

the mail carriers' perspective might be interesting to hear since we have only heard from the shop owner and the USPS spokesperson

 

[matchlight]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

belief he would never be prosecuted is not a defense in court now is it?

I agree with your analysis. The postman has a perfect right not to deliver to a criminal enterprise. Whether I or anyone else approves of the sale or use marijuana is not relevant to the legal issue.

 

[matchlight]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The same carrier walks into other local businesses.

Did you miss the part where the USPS spokesperson clearly said that the Postal Service’s policy is to deliver mail to recreational marijuana businesses in the same way it would for any other customer ? Or do you think you know more about USPS policy than the USPS spokesperson ?

Your presumptions about packages are a red herring.

It does include an obligation to step inside a business. You simply refuse to acknowledge what it means when it says they are expected to deliver the mail to a "Call Window". I cited the policy for you with exactitude.

The law was violated. That's why the article clearly stated that it was illegal. That's why what i pointed out shows that it's clearly against USPS policy.



That's completely false. Did you see the part where the USPS spokesperson clearly stated that it is the Postal Service’s policy is to deliver mail to recreational marijuana businesses in the same way it would for any other customer ?

What a joke. If this had happened to a liquor store, the carrier could be in prison, and that is absolutely "drug dealing" (what a pathetic appeal to emotion).

I'd say you are the one making a pathetic appeal to emotion. Whether you think marijuana should be a controlled substance under federal law, or how harmful you think it is compared to alcohol, is not relevant to whether the postman may refuse to deliver mail to marijuana shops. The policies of administrative agencies are not law, and the postman is not obligated to comply with a Postal Service policy if it is illegal.

The Controlled Substances Act continues to list marijuana as a Schedule One substance. That means it has no officially recognized medical use, and that federal law may prohibit it. See Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1 (2005). In Raich, the Supreme Court upheld the destruction by federal agents of six marijuana plants a California woman had been growing solely for her personal medicinal use. The Court held that that even though this use of marijuana by her complied with California law, and even though none of the marijuana had traveled in interstate commerce, Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce justified prohibiting her actions under the authority of the CSA.

The fact the Obama administration has chosen not to enforce the CSA in most cases involving marijuana, as a matter of discretion, does not relieve anyone from the duty to comply with that law.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I don't think there is a policy addressing pot shops. If there is I don't think it existed prior to the media story.

They haven't provided it in writing.


Irrelevant sinc this business does not have a call window or internal receptacle. Or any receptacle, and workers cannot be legally required to enter unsafe or illegal situations under federal law



I have not denied reality, in fact it is you who is doing so. You have not acknowledged this is an illegal business when it clearly is, you have not acknowledged that no statute forbids anything this carrier has done, you along with the media have implied without evidence she's witholding a registered letter, you have shown no knowledge of how union shops operate, you've introduced as an argument a policy on call windows when no call window exists at this business. Have I missed anything here?
Oh yeah, the delivery policy that actually covers this form of delivery which I cited didn't meet your view so you ignored it and argued a call window policy on a chapter dealing with institutional mail delivery (where multiple addressees have mail delivered to a central desk or mail room) and in fact you do not even know what the letter carriers concerns are but want to kick her to street and take away a career and benefits on the complaint of a criminal drug dealer (and you flat out deny that as well, it's amazing that you were willing to send a worker to Susanville for 3 to 5 on the biggest most longshot stretch of a mail tamper statute anyone has ever seen, but bristle with phony outrage that I've correctly called out this pot dealer for unquestionably violating the law. I guess some pigs are more equal then others on Absentglares farm)

I have been completely embarrassing you at every turn. You are relying on deflections, assumptions, and logical fallacies.

Here :

"Mail receptacles or door slots are not required at businesses and offices that are open and have someone on hand to receive the mail when the carrier calls."

Page 692 of the USPS mailing standards manual :

http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/dmm300/mailingStandards.pdf#page691

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

They are free to refuse to enter the establishment so long as they actually deliver the mail. There is a difference. And nothing in the codes for postal delivery require a mail carrier to enter an establishment to deliver the mail. The business is supposed to provide either some sort of approved box or someone to accept the mail (which still doesn't have to be inside the business).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They are LEGALLY COMPELLED to enter the building.

If she doesn't like it, she should quit.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

wonder where the postal carrier union stands on this
the federal employee is obligated to follow direct orders but not if the order is an illegal one
is an order to deliver mail to a federally illegal enterprise a legal order?

the federal prohibition is the reason why marijuana vendors are unable to deposit their business' money in banks/S&Ls/credit unions (all are subject to federal auditing)
if the federal prohibition is responsible for that denial of bank service, would it be a distant reach to also be the basis for the delivery of mail by federal carriers

surprised the weed shop owner is being uncooperative. would think such an enterprise would want to create as few waves as possible

what proof do we have that the shop owner ever sent a certified return receipt requested letter. a receipt is available to be retained by the sender to document such a letter was sent. has that receipt been offered into evidence

my spouse is very sensitive to smells. intense perfume aroma in a restaurant can set her off gagging, causing us to leave if we cannot find a table unaffected by the highly perfumed woman. for this reason, i must seal my skunk weed (named that for a reason) in a thermos to be placed in the freezer so that she is not confronted with its smell. wonder if this mail carrier has a similar issue that requires such accommodation as a mail slot/mail receptacle. something the shop owner refuses to install

the mail carriers' perspective might be interesting to hear since we have only heard from the shop owner and the USPS spokesperson

Delivering mail is not illegal.

In order for the activity to be illegal, they have to be KNOWINGLY doing something illegal, like those 5 mail carriers in Ohio who were receiving bribes and making drug drops.

This is an example of a bigot who is using federal law as an excuse to neglect to do their job.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I agree with your analysis. The postman has a perfect right not to deliver to a criminal enterprise. Whether I or anyone else approves of the sale or use marijuana is not relevant to the legal issue.

I'd say you are the one making a pathetic appeal to emotion. Whether you think marijuana should be a controlled substance under federal law, or how harmful you think it is compared to alcohol, is not relevant to whether the postman may refuse to deliver mail to marijuana shops. The policies of administrative agencies are not law, and the postman is not obligated to comply with a Postal Service policy if it is illegal.

The Controlled Substances Act continues to list marijuana as a Schedule One substance. That means it has no officially recognized medical use, and that federal law may prohibit it. See Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1 (2005). In Raich, the Supreme Court upheld the destruction by federal agents of six marijuana plants a California woman had been growing solely for her personal medicinal use. The Court held that that even though this use of marijuana by her complied with California law, and even though none of the marijuana had traveled in interstate commerce, Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce justified prohibiting her actions under the authority of the CSA.

The fact the Obama administration has chosen not to enforce the CSA in most cases involving marijuana, as a matter of discretion, does not relieve anyone from the duty to comply with that law.

Thank you for proving my point. Raich did not face criminal charges, they simply had their plants destroyed. Tell me- am i supposed to believe that the mail carrier is refusing to deliver mail because they're afraid that if they enter the building, feds will drop from black helicopters and destroy the plants- and you think this conspiracy theory is a valid reason to forsake their employment contract ?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I have been completely embarrassing you at every turn. You are relying on deflections, assumptions, and logical fallacies.

Here :

"Mail receptacles or door slots are not required at businesses and offices that are open and have someone on hand to receive the mail when the carrier calls."

Page 692 of the USPS mailing standards manual :

http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/dmm300/mailingStandards.pdf#page691

It does not say entry, it says customer may recieve at call.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

They are LEGALLY COMPELLED to enter the building.

If she doesn't like it, she should quit.

No they are not. Please cite the statute that requires this

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

It does not say entry, it says customer may recieve at call.

If the business is open, and there is no external receptacle, they are unambiguously obligated to enter. None of your dishonest denials can change that fact.

No they are not. Please cite the statute that requires this

Mail carriers that do not deliver the mail go to jail. Did you not know that ?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

If the business is open, and there is no external receptacle, they are unambiguously obligated to enter. None of your dishonest denials can change that fact.

no, nothing published states that.

Mail carriers that do not deliver the mail go to jail. Did you not know that ?[/QUOTE]

Did you know that if you do not carry at least 10 dollars in cash you can be arrested for vagrancy?

it's also illegal to have an ice cream cone in your pocket or hunt zebras in Minnesota....

some random guy on the internet holds no weight. statutes.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

They are LEGALLY COMPELLED to enter the building.

If she doesn't like it, she should quit.

There is no law, rule, or policy that says that they must enter any business. The policy being posted doesn't even say that. It says the business must have someone on hand to collect the mail. Nothing about the carrier entering the facility.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

There is no law, rule, or policy that says that they must enter any business. The policy being posted doesn't even say that. It says the business must have someone on hand to collect the mail. Nothing about the carrier entering the facility.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It says if the business is open, the carrier is expected to enter. They enter for cluster boxes, hell sometimes they use elevators.

I don't know why people seem to think that USPS mail carriers could possibly be allowed to not do their stated job. Yes, they deliver mail to good AND bad people; pedophiles, rapists, wife beaters, convicted murderers, and even *gasp* marijuana vendors ! They don't get to choose which part of the kaleidoscope of humanity they service.

 

[Absentglare]

no, nothing published states that.

Did you know that if you do not carry at least 10 dollars in cash you can be arrested for vagrancy?

it's also illegal to have an ice cream cone in your pocket or hunt zebras in Minnesota....

some random guy on the internet holds no weight. statutes.

Great now you admit it's illegal, but you've shifted the goalposts to act like it doesn't matter.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Great now you admit it's illegal, but you've shifted the goalposts to act like it doesn't matter.

I said no sch thing I called you out and asked for statutes

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I read this story, and I'm on the side of the post office worker, regardless of whatever state licneses this business possesses, those licenses carry the same weight as monopoly money under federal law, should a letter carrier be required to deliver mail to marijuana shops?

Some pot shops not getting mail delivered to stores



oh this gem is great



Still, federal law makes it illegal to distribute controlled substances, and this postman by knowingly facilitating this business that's openly operating in violation of the law could technically be guilty of engaging in a conspiracy to deliver controlled substances, it is not reasonable to expect him to risk prison time to deliver mail inside an operating criminal enterprise (and don't take that as a judgemental term, that is the term "criminal enterprise" used in federal law to describe organized distributors of illegal drugs)

what do you think?

In interest of disclosure, my hometown is the adjacent city of Port Orchard and I took some college in Bremerton and do a good deal of business in this town, This mj shop is in a fairly sketchy neighborhood too. there's a porn shop, payday lenders, a title pawn, three different 2 dollar wok joints, etc. just so you can picture this.

Whoa!

Okay, I used to be a postal clerk and I worked for and personally knew Harry Kleinfelter when he was the assistant posmaster in Silverdale - he's a good guy, and I've got nothing bad at all to say of him. If he says they're addressing the problem, I believe him...and the postal carrier who's not doing his or her job will be reassigned...but almost certainly not let go, since there's a conflict with federal law. But Harry will find someone else who will do the job.

Yeah, there is the point of conflict with federal law...but like the great majority of the rest of the postal workers in Washington and Colorado, they're going to deliver the mail - that's what they do, and they're mostly a heck of a lot more relaxed than this particular postal carrier.