Blame soldiers for war?

[RobertU]

Are soldiers personally responsible for war? That was the message of Universal Soldier, a song written by Canadian singer-songwriter Buffy Sainte-Marie that became popular when covered by Donovan in 1965.

Lyrics include:

And he's fighting for democracy he's fighting for the reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him how would Hitler have condemned them at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body as the weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame

Do these lyrics make a valid point?

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Soldiers are not responsible for war. Our elected leaders are. There is a reason we put the military under civilian control.

Soldiers are, however, responsible for their specific individual actions during war.

 

[Perotista]

Are soldiers personally responsible for war? That was the message of Universal Soldier, a song written by Canadian singer-songwriter Buffy Sainte-Marie that became popular when covered by Donovan in 1965.

Lyrics include:

And he's fighting for democracy he's fighting for the reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him how would Hitler have condemned them at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body as the weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame

Do these lyrics make a valid point?

I've been military pretty much all my life. I never once started a war.

 

[Jetboogieman]

War is Old Men Talking And Young Men Dying.

 

[Cordelier]

Soldiers are not responsible for war. Our elected leaders are. There is a reason we put the military under civilian control.

Soldiers are, however, responsible for their specific individual actions during war.

Even if it's just following an order?

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Even if it's just following an order?

Depends on the order. In the US military you are only obligated to follow lawful orders and could be criminally liable for following unlawful orders.

 

[Cordelier]

Depends on the order. In the US military you are only obligated to follow lawful orders and could be criminally liable for following unlawful orders.

I'm sure that means something..... to the JAG corps anyway.

I keep thinking back to watching footage of the trial of Adolf Eichmann.... this man standing up there in the witness stand. If you didn't know who he was or his history.... he could have been a chartered accountant. Hell, he even looked like a neighbor of mine.

But his ultimate defense was "I was only following orders"... that's the standard defense of every war criminal in history. If history had taken a different course, it might have been General DeWitt saying those words.

When you get right down to it, isn't it a cop-out?

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I'm sure that means something..... to the JAG corps anyway.

I keep thinking back to watching footage of the trial of Adolf Eichmann.... this man standing up there in the witness stand. If you didn't know who he was or his history.... he could have been a chartered accountant. Hell, he even looked like a neighbor of mine.

But his ultimate defense was "I was only following orders"... that's the standard defense of every war criminal in history. If history had taken a different course, it might have been General DeWitt saying those words.

When you get right down to it, isn't it a cop-out?

Yes, following an unlawful order and then claiming you are just following orders is a cop-out.

Of course it isnt always clearcut. The US military’s Uniform Code of Military Justice doesn’t grant protection to soldier’s following lawful orders. Meanwhile, under a regime like the Khmer Rouge if a soldier disobeyed ANY order they or their family could be killed.

“If I disobeyed they would kill my wife and child” gets more sympathy from me than “I was just following orders”.

But I can only speak with knowledge regarding the US military. I don’t remember ever receiving much training on the subject when I was enlisted. It wasn’t until I went to Warrant Officer Candidate school that I received formal training on the matter. I think enlisted personnel should get similar training to the officers on this matter.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Are soldiers personally responsible for war? That was the message of Universal Soldier, a song written by Canadian singer-songwriter Buffy Sainte-Marie that became popular when covered by Donovan in 1965.

Lyrics include:

And he's fighting for democracy he's fighting for the reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him how would Hitler have condemned them at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body as the weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame

Do these lyrics make a valid point?

I never could stand listening to the scratchy needling whiny sound of that bitch's voice.
If there are two female singers who sound like fingernails on a blackboard to my ears, Buffy is one and Edith Piaf is another.
Neither of them can sing their way out of a paper bag and the crap they sing about is more worthless than tits on a bull.

 

[Cordelier]

Yes, following an unlawful order and then claiming you are just following orders is a cop-out.

Of course it isnt always clearcut. The US military’s Uniform Code of Military Justice doesn’t grant protection to soldier’s following lawful orders. Meanwhile, under a regime like the Khmer Rouge if a soldier disobeyed ANY order they or their family could be killed.

“If I disobeyed they would kill my wife and child” gets more sympathy from me than “I was just following orders”.

But I can only speak with knowledge regarding the US military. I don’t remember ever receiving much training on the subject when I was enlisted. It wasn’t until I went to Warrant Officer Candidate school that I received formal training on the matter. I think enlisted personnel should get similar training to the officers on this matter.

I'm going to ask you a personal question, Bob... and as such, you obviously don't have to answer it.

What's the angriest you've ever seen someone get? Have you ever seen someone's veneer get pushed so far aside that you thought they'd kill someone? Or... I was going to say "better yet" here, but it's not - have you ever actually seen someone get so angry that they did kill someone?

 

[davidhume]

Are soldiers personally responsible for war? That was the message of Universal Soldier, a song written by Canadian singer-songwriter Buffy Sainte-Marie that became popular when covered by Donovan in 1965.

Lyrics include:

And he's fighting for democracy he's fighting for the reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him how would Hitler have condemned them at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body as the weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame

Do these lyrics make a valid point?

Yes they do. At least half of the US soldiers invading Iraq were privately employed.

 

[davidhume]

Soldiers are not responsible for war. Our elected leaders are. There is a reason we put the military under civilian control.

Soldiers are, however, responsible for their specific individual actions during war.

Soldiers sign up. Of course they are responsible.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I'm going to ask you a personal question, Bob... and as such, you obviously don't have to answer it.

What's the angriest you've ever seen someone get? Have you ever seen someone's veneer get pushed so far aside that you thought they'd kill someone? Or... I was going to say "better yet" here, but it's not - have you ever actually seen someone get so angry that they did kill someone?

To make a long story short...yes, I have.

 

[Oozlefinch]

But I can only speak with knowledge regarding the US military. I don’t remember ever receiving much training on the subject when I was enlisted. It wasn’t until I went to Warrant Officer Candidate school that I received formal training on the matter. I think enlisted personnel should get similar training to the officers on this matter.

I think that would largely depend on what your duties were.

As an Infantryman in the 1980's, we were drilled quite extensively on the Laws of Land Warfare. In fact, as we sat upon the runway in 1987 preparing to go to Haiti, we were given a 1 hour class on that by the Battalion S-2 and S-3. We were specifically told what the mission would be, and all aspects of escalation of force, and rules of engagement.

And today, it is even more in-depth. Such things are gone over time and time again, because they do not want anybody trying to claim "I was doing what I was told" if they had violated such rules.

And part of these classes are not just the UCMJ, but the Geneva Convention, Hague Protocols, and all other aspects of the Laws of Land Warfare. That way nobody can say they did not know better. If any "order" was given that violated any of those other agreements, we should recognize that they are unlawful and therefore not to be followed.

 

[davidhume]

I've been military pretty much all my life. I never once started a war.

But you got paid by those who start war.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I think that would largely depend on what your duties were.

As an Infantryman in the 1980's, we were drilled quite extensively on the Laws of Land Warfare. In fact, as we sat upon the runway in 1987 preparing to go to Haiti, we were given a 1 hour class on that by the Battalion S-2 and S-3. We were specifically told what the mission would be, and all aspects of escalation of force, and rules of engagement.

And today, it is even more in-depth. Such things are gone over time and time again, because they do not want anybody trying to claim "I was doing what I was told" if they had violated such rules.

And part of these classes are not just the UCMJ, but the Geneva Convention, Hague Protocols, and all other aspects of the Laws of Land Warfare. That way nobody can say they did not know better. If any "order" was given that violated any of those other agreements, we should recognize that they are unlawful and therefore not to be followed.

Good points. Also, it is possible I DID learn that stuff during Basic training when I attended in the 90s when I enlisted and just don’t remember. I was not a combat MOS.

 

[Perotista]

But you got paid by those who start war.

Yep, I got paid by the United States Federal Government, just like everyone else who worked for Uncle Sam doing whatever they were doing. If you get right down to it, a soldier, airman, seaman, we're nothing more or less than government employees.

 

[Fledermaus]

But you got paid by those who start war.

And this means what?

 

[davidhume]

And this means what?

take a guess

 

[Fledermaus]

Soldiers sign up. Of course they are responsible.

They are responsible for carrying out the lawful orders given.

They are not responsible for the war itself.

 

[Fledermaus]

take a guess

So you don't have a point.

Got it.

 

[davidhume]

They are responsible for carrying out the lawful orders given.

They are not responsible for the war itself.

Just following orders.

 

[davidhume]

So you don't have a point.

Got it.

Being a smart aleck gets you nowhere.

 

[Cordelier]

To make a long story short...yes, I have.

Okay... you've seen that look then. I call it "The Beast".

When you get a soldier combat-trained just the right way and you put him or her under stress... all you have to do is give the order and take responsibility for the action and you'll get the Beast. I've always marveled at that trait of human behavior.... as long as someone up the chain takes responsibility, there's no limit to what you can get people to do.

Doesn't matter what the circumstances are or even what the order is... a soldier who can't follow an order isn't worth a damn. There's no UCMJ manual out there in the field. There's no room for questioning an order. You just don't. It's a reflex.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Good points. Also, it is possible I DID learn that stuff during Basic training when I attended in the 90s when I enlisted and just don’t remember. I was not a combat MOS.

I know that when I went back in the military in the mid-2000s, the training was largely the same as I got in the Infantry in the 1980's, and this continues even now.

Today I also am in a "non-combat MOS", and we still get drilled in it regularly. Of course, the conflicts we have found ourselves involved in for the last 20 years is very different than that expected in the Cold War. Back then, it was expected that the enemy would be met was wearing uniforms, and that it would be a clear line between who the good guys were, and who the bad guys were. And the enemy we were expected to engage (North Korea, Warsaw Pact, etc) would also largely adhere to the Laws, as we would.

Today, this is drilled much more than it was, because of the shadow nature of who we are generally fighting against. An enemy that does not wear a uniform, and who violated those laws with impunity and does not even pay lip service to them. This can tend to make those involved in fighting start to take the attitude of "If they can do it, why not me?" Hence, the fact that it is gone over time and time again to help make sure that does not happen.

And even "minor" infractions against those laws are dealt with harshly. Even sending home a picture with a dead combatant today can result in strong punishment. Meanwhile the other side has no problem with not only publishing such photographs, but showing the mutilation of still loving combatants as well as their torture and executions.

I understand the laws and why we follow them, but I find it hard to feel any sympathy when the body of a dead ISIS soldier is shown, while nothing is done when they do things like pour gasoline on living POWs and then set them afire and broadcast those videos to the world.