Bipartisan deal close on expanded background checks

[Catawba]

I can live with expanded background checks

I am happy to see you support the bipartisan bill!

all in all, I think the major accomplishment of this sort of bill will be to drive gun sales that take place in the gray market right into the black market....it's an inevitability.

Law enforcement and the great majority of the public disagree. We think it doesn't make good sense to allow the sale of guns in 40 states without a background check.

We prefer that criminals have to go to more effort and expense to get guns than a trip to their local gun show!

 

[Thrilla]

I am happy to see you support the bipartisan bill!




Law enforcement and the great majority of the public disagree. We think it doesn't make good sense to allow the sale of guns in 40 states without a background check.

We prefer that criminals have to go to more effort and expense to get guns than a trip to their local gun show!

law enforcement and the great majority of the public have not addressed the inevitability of moving these sales into the black market...were they to do so, they would agree that doing away with the gray market inevitably drives those transfers to the black market...
if a person wants a gun, they'll get one...demand will have it's supply regardless of whatever good intentions are at play here


we all prefer for criminals to have a tough time getting their hands on weapons, but our preferences don't mean much when it comes to reality.
these folks will get their guns...there is no doubt about it.... not even a little bit.
you might have changed the venue they get them from, maybe even the method.... but they will be had..... and you will be befuddled as to how they got them.
same old song and dance.

 

[Catawba]

law enforcement and the great majority of the public have not addressed the inevitability of moving these sales into the black market...were they to do so, they would agree that doing away with the gray market inevitably drives those transfers to the black market...
if a person wants a gun, they'll get one...demand will have it's supply regardless of whatever good intentions are at play here.

we all prefer for criminals to have a tough time getting their hands on weapons, but our preferences don't mean much when it comes to reality.
these folks will get their guns...there is no doubt about it.... not even a little bit.
you might have changed the venue they get them from, maybe even the method.... but they will be had..... and you will be befuddled as to how they got them.
same old song and dance.

Fortunately, law enforcement and the great majority are smart enough to know that many guns on the black market come from gun shows in another state, and are moving forward with the bipartisan background check bill that you support!

 

[Thrilla]

Fortunately, law enforcement and the great majority are smart enough to know that many guns on the black market come from gun shows in another state, and are moving forward with the bipartisan background check bill that you support!

I do not support the bill.. I said I can live with it (because I am not affected by it).... there is a difference.

yes, I'm sure people believe they are smart....and i'm sure they believe they are solving a problem...I'm sure they believe gun violence will be dealt a serious blow.
they, however, are not smart enough to step outside of their little box and acknowledge reality as it is.

I don't mind you denying the black market exists or that it will continue to exist....willful ignorance is often found in smart people.

 

[Dickieboy]

Fortunately, law enforcement and the great majority are smart enough to know that many guns on the black market come from gun shows in another state, and are moving forward with the bipartisan background check bill that you support!

Kinda curious on how you could substantiate the bolded above...I realize you rely on the poll about UBC’s to pontificate but these seems an overreach based on the question asked in the poll…

 

[TurtleDude]

If that is what you tell yourself to make you feel better about being politically irrelevant, knock yourself out!

people like you said the same thing up to about November 5th or so, 1994.

suddenly, many of your gun hating buddies became VERY irrelevant within a couple months of that date

 

[Catawba]

I do not support the bill.. I said I can live with it (because I am not affected by it).... there is a difference.

yes, I'm sure people believe they are smart....and i'm sure they believe they are solving a problem...I'm sure they believe gun violence will be dealt a serious blow.
they, however, are not smart enough to step outside of their little box and acknowledge reality as it is.

I don't mind you denying the black market exists or that it will continue to exist....willful ignorance is often found in smart people.

No one is ignoring the black market, but like law enforcement and the great majority of the country, I understand that private gun sales without background checks is where many of the black market guns come from.

 

[Catawba]

Kinda curious on how you could substantiate the bolded above...I realize you rely on the poll about UBC’s to pontificate but these seems an overreach based on the question asked in the poll…

"Beginning in the early 2000s, gun shows became controversial in the United States.[4][5] Those concerned about these events claim that American gun shows are a primary source of illegally trafficked firearms, both within the United States and abroad.[6][7]"

# ^ "Following the Gun". Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). 2000. http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/pdf/followingthegun_internet.pdf.
# ^ a b "Firearms Trafficking: U.S. Efforts to Combat Arms Trafficking to Mexico Face Planning and Coordination Challenges". U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO). http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/externalresources/2009/GAOd09709.pdf.

Gun shows in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Catawba]

Big names in the GOP signing on to bipartisan background check bill:

Senator John McCain (R-AZ)

Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK)

Congressman Eric Cantor (R-VA)

Congressman Scott Rigell (R-VA)

 

[Dickieboy]

Big names in the GOP signing on to bipartisan background check bill:

Senator John McCain (R-AZ)

Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK)

Congressman Eric Cantor (R-VA)

Congressman Scott Rigell (R-VA)

Are they signing on a WRITTEN bill or merely posturing to the CONCEPT of a bill? If the former could you provide a link to the paper?

 

[Dickieboy]

"Beginning in the early 2000s, gun shows became controversial in the United States.[4][5] Those concerned about these events claim that American gun shows are a primary source of illegally trafficked firearms, both within the United States and abroad.[6][7]"

# ^ "Following the Gun". Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). 2000. http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/pdf/followingthegun_internet.pdf.
# ^ a b "Firearms Trafficking: U.S. Efforts to Combat Arms Trafficking to Mexico Face Planning and Coordination Challenges". U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO). http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/externalresources/2009/GAOd09709.pdf.

Gun shows in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First, none of the above addresses the question I posed.

Second, your first link is dead.
Your second link was read and searched thoroughly and yielded:

Many of these firearms come from gun shops and gun shows in Southwest border states…opening description page.

Many of these firearms come from gun shops and gun shows in Southwest border states, such as Texas, California, and Arizona, according to ATF officials and trace data…page 3

Many of these firearms came from gun shops and gun shows in Southwest border states, such as Texas, California, and Arizona, according to ATF officials and trace data…page 14

These quotes fails to support your (and Wiki’s) ‘primary source’ assertion. But of interest I found this:

These gun dealers, or FFLs,17 18 or out of gun shows. From fiscal year 2004 to fiscal year 2008, of those firearms ATF was able to trace back to a retail dealer, around 95 percent were traced back to gun shops and pawn shops—around 71 to 79 percent from gun shops and 15 to 19 percent from pawn shops, according to ATF. In addition to these firearms that are successfully traced back to a retail dealer, some ATF officials told us, based on information from their operations and investigations, many seized guns also come from private sales at gun shows, though it is impossible to know this exact number due to the lack of records kept for such purchases…page 21

Note where it says ‘95% were traced back to gun shops and pawn shops’? Would you consider around 95% to be synonymous with 'primary'? Wouldn’t this negate your ‘primary source’ assertion regardless of the dead first link?

Please, try again…

 

[Catawba]

Are they signing on a WRITTEN bill or merely posturing to the CONCEPT of a bill? If the former could you provide a link to the paper?

In the Senate:

"Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said Sunday that he expects bipartisan legislation expanding background checks on gun purchases to have broad support in the Senate.

"There's some senators, bipartisan, again, Senator Coburn and Senator Manchin and some others who are working on a package that I think that most of us will be able to support," McCain said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "I applaud their efforts."

McCain continued, "Obviously, we want to do everything we can to prevent guns from falling into the hands of people who are mentally unbalanced or criminals."

The bipartisan plan touted by McCain is currently under negotiation. Senators Tom Coburn (R-Okla.), Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), Joe Manchin (D-W.V.) and Chuck Schumer (N.Y.) have met to discuss the proposed legislation, which would close loopholes in the current background check system. "

John McCain: Background Checks Will Get Broad Support In Senate

In the House:

"Rep. Peter King joins bipartisan push for House version of bill imposing universal background checks on gun purchases

The bill is the House version of a bipartisan Senate bill and the plan is to coordinate the two to work together on the reform. The proposals come as many legislators take up Obama's call for enforcement of and creation of gun control laws.

Read more: Rep. Peter King joins bipartisan push for House version of bill imposing universal background checks on gun purchases - NY Daily News




Background Checks Gain Ground as Republicans Defy Gun Lobby

"A coalition of House Republicans is willing to thwart the National Rifle Association’s opposition to broadening background checks for U.S. gun purchases. That may be President Barack Obama’s best chance for advancing tougher gun regulations this year.

Representatives Patrick Meehan and Michael Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania are among Republicans expressing openness to expanding the background-check system, including mandatory screening of buyers at gun shows. “We need to consider any option that will keep people safe,” Fitzpatrick said in an interview.

“I’m interested in looking at closing the gun-show loophole,” Meehan said in an interview. “But I’m also going to be watching where this goes, particularly in the Senate and how much real effort will be put” forth, he said.

The loose alliance of Republicans, largely from urban districts in the Northeast and states including Virginia that have been the sites of mass shootings in the past several years, is also focused on regulations involving mental-health reporting of firearms buyers and gun trafficking as first steps in combating gun violence."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloo...as-Republicans-Defy-4289734.php#ixzz2LTpS1mPD

 

[Catawba]

First, none of the above addresses the question I posed.

BS!

Second, your first link is dead.

There is a link on the wiki site I provided to download the pdf. Here are some of the excerpts from the ATF Report:

"Gun shows. Gun shows were a major trafficking channel, involving the second highest number of
trafficked guns per investigation (more than 130), and associated with approximately 26,000
illegally diverted firearms. The investigations involved both licensed and unlicensed sellers at gun
shows.

"Unlicensed sellers. Unlicensed sellers were a focus of about a fifth of the trafficking investigations,
and involved an average of about 75 guns per investigation and almost 23,000 guns. Unlicensed
sellers range from individuals who knowingly sell guns to criminals from their personal collections
to interstate gun runners buying guns to sell to gangs and drug organizations."

Your second link was read and searched thoroughly and yielded:

"Available evidence indicates a large proportion of the firearms fueling Mexican drug violence originated in the United States, including a growing number of increasingly lethal weapons. While it is impossible to know how many firearms are illegally trafficked into Mexico in a given year, around 87 percent of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced over the past 5 years originated in the United States, according to data from ATF."

"specifically, they told us they saw no reason why the drug cartels would go through the difficulty of acquiring a gun somewhere else in the world and transporting it to Mexico when it is so easy for them to do so from the United States."

"according to U.S. and Mexican government officials, the firearms seized in Mexico have been increasingly more powerful and lethal in recent years.13 For example, around 25 percent of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced in fiscal year 2008 are high-caliber and high-powered such as AK and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, which fire ammunition that can pierce armor often used by Mexican police."

"Many Firearms Trafficked into Mexico Come from Gun Shops and Gun Shows in Southwest Border States"

"From fiscal year 2004 to fiscal year 2008, most of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced came from U.S. Southwest border states. In particular, about 70 percent of these firearms came from Texas, California, and Arizona. Figure 5 provides data on the top source states for firearms trafficked to Mexico and traced from fiscal year 2004 to fiscal year 2008."

"based on information from their operations and investigations, many seized guns also come from private sales at gun shows, though it is impossible to know this exact number due to the lack of records kept for such purchases, which is discussed further below."

"Gun shows. According to ATF officials, individuals can use straw purchasers as they would at gun shops to acquire guns from gun shops with booths at gun shows. In addition, individuals can also purchase guns at gun shows from other individuals making sales from their private collections. These private sales require no background checks of the purchaser and require no record be made or kept of the sale. ATF officials told us this prevents their knowing what percentage of the problem of arms trafficking to Mexico comes from these private sales at gun shows.

 

[Dickieboy]

In the Senate:

"Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said Sunday that he expects bipartisan legislation expanding background checks on gun purchases to have broad support in the Senate.

"There's some senators, bipartisan, again, Senator Coburn and Senator Manchin and some others who are working on a package that I think that most of us will be able to support," McCain said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "I applaud their efforts."

McCain continued, "Obviously, we want to do everything we can to prevent guns from falling into the hands of people who are mentally unbalanced or criminals."

The bipartisan plan touted by McCain is currently under negotiation. Senators Tom Coburn (R-Okla.), Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), Joe Manchin (D-W.V.) and Chuck Schumer (N.Y.) have met to discuss the proposed legislation, which would close loopholes in the current background check system. "

John McCain: Background Checks Will Get Broad Support In Senate

In the House:

"Rep. Peter King joins bipartisan push for House version of bill imposing universal background checks on gun purchases

The bill is the House version of a bipartisan Senate bill and the plan is to coordinate the two to work together on the reform. The proposals come as many legislators take up Obama's call for enforcement of and creation of gun control laws.

Read more: Rep. Peter King joins bipartisan push for House version of bill imposing universal background checks on gun purchases - NY Daily News




Background Checks Gain Ground as Republicans Defy Gun Lobby

"A coalition of House Republicans is willing to thwart the National Rifle Association’s opposition to broadening background checks for U.S. gun purchases. That may be President Barack Obama’s best chance for advancing tougher gun regulations this year.

Representatives Patrick Meehan and Michael Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania are among Republicans expressing openness to expanding the background-check system, including mandatory screening of buyers at gun shows. “We need to consider any option that will keep people safe,” Fitzpatrick said in an interview.

“I’m interested in looking at closing the gun-show loophole,” Meehan said in an interview. “But I’m also going to be watching where this goes, particularly in the Senate and how much real effort will be put” forth, he said.

The loose alliance of Republicans, largely from urban districts in the Northeast and states including Virginia that have been the sites of mass shootings in the past several years, is also focused on regulations involving mental-health reporting of firearms buyers and gun trafficking as first steps in combating gun violence."

Read more: Background Checks Gain Ground as Republicans Defy Gun Lobby - SFGate

You posted all this jibber jabber to answer this question; Are they signing on a WRITTEN bill or merely posturing to the CONCEPT of a bill?...

Since you failed to provide a LINK to a WRITTEN bill I presume it IS merely posturing to the CONCEPT of a bill…as I suspected.

You could have saved yourself much trouble by merely replying ‘no written bill found yet’ or some such…

 

[Dickieboy]

BS!

Ok, BS…lets review. I requested you support the bolded below:

Fortunately, law enforcement and the great majority are smart enough to know that many guns on the black market come from gun shows in another state, and are moving forward with the bipartisan background check bill that you support!

To which you furnish a bunch of vaguely related crap that did not support the ‘great majority are smart enough’ supposition you professed. Unfortunately you cannot prove that the ATF study has been read by this ‘great majority’ or more importantly 'smart enough to know'.

Wanna try again?...

or just call BS again...:lamo

 

[Catawba]

Ok, BS…lets review. I requested you support the bolded below:



To which you furnish..............

Documentation in two different reports:


There is a link on the wiki site I provided to download the pdf. Here are some of the excerpts from the ATF Report:

"Gun shows. Gun shows were a major trafficking channel, involving the second highest number of
trafficked guns per investigation (more than 130), and associated with approximately 26,000
illegally diverted firearms. The investigations involved both licensed and unlicensed sellers at gun
shows.

"Unlicensed sellers. Unlicensed sellers were a focus of about a fifth of the trafficking investigations,
and involved an average of about 75 guns per investigation and almost 23,000 guns. Unlicensed
sellers range from individuals who knowingly sell guns to criminals from their personal collections
to interstate gun runners buying guns to sell to gangs and drug organizations."






"Available evidence indicates a large proportion of the firearms fueling Mexican drug violence originated in the United States, including a growing number of increasingly lethal weapons. While it is impossible to know how many firearms are illegally trafficked into Mexico in a given year, around 87 percent of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced over the past 5 years originated in the United States, according to data from ATF."

"specifically, they told us they saw no reason why the drug cartels would go through the difficulty of acquiring a gun somewhere else in the world and transporting it to Mexico when it is so easy for them to do so from the United States."

"according to U.S. and Mexican government officials, the firearms seized in Mexico have been increasingly more powerful and lethal in recent years.13 For example, around 25 percent of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced in fiscal year 2008 are high-caliber and high-powered such as AK and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, which fire ammunition that can pierce armor often used by Mexican police."

"Many Firearms Trafficked into Mexico Come from Gun Shops and Gun Shows in Southwest Border States"

"From fiscal year 2004 to fiscal year 2008, most of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced came from U.S. Southwest border states. In particular, about 70 percent of these firearms came from Texas, California, and Arizona. Figure 5 provides data on the top source states for firearms trafficked to Mexico and traced from fiscal year 2004 to fiscal year 2008."

"based on information from their operations and investigations, many seized guns also come from private sales at gun shows, though it is impossible to know this exact number due to the lack of records kept for such purchases, which is discussed further below."

"Gun shows. According to ATF officials, individuals can use straw purchasers as they would at gun shops to acquire guns from gun shops with booths at gun shows. In addition, individuals can also purchase guns at gun shows from other individuals making sales from their private collections. These private sales require no background checks of the purchaser and require no record be made or kept of the sale. ATF officials told us this prevents their knowing what percentage of the problem of arms trafficking to Mexico comes from these private sales at gun shows.

 

[Dickieboy]

Documentation in two different reports:


There is a link on the wiki site I provided to download the pdf. Here are some of the excerpts from the ATF Report:

"Gun shows. Gun shows were a major trafficking channel, involving the second highest number of
trafficked guns per investigation (more than 130), and associated with approximately 26,000
illegally diverted firearms. The investigations involved both licensed and unlicensed sellers at gun
shows.

"Unlicensed sellers. Unlicensed sellers were a focus of about a fifth of the trafficking investigations,
and involved an average of about 75 guns per investigation and almost 23,000 guns. Unlicensed
sellers range from individuals who knowingly sell guns to criminals from their personal collections
to interstate gun runners buying guns to sell to gangs and drug organizations."






"Available evidence indicates a large proportion of the firearms fueling Mexican drug violence originated in the United States, including a growing number of increasingly lethal weapons. While it is impossible to know how many firearms are illegally trafficked into Mexico in a given year, around 87 percent of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced over the past 5 years originated in the United States, according to data from ATF."

"specifically, they told us they saw no reason why the drug cartels would go through the difficulty of acquiring a gun somewhere else in the world and transporting it to Mexico when it is so easy for them to do so from the United States."

"according to U.S. and Mexican government officials, the firearms seized in Mexico have been increasingly more powerful and lethal in recent years.13 For example, around 25 percent of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced in fiscal year 2008 are high-caliber and high-powered such as AK and AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, which fire ammunition that can pierce armor often used by Mexican police."

"Many Firearms Trafficked into Mexico Come from Gun Shops and Gun Shows in Southwest Border States"

"From fiscal year 2004 to fiscal year 2008, most of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced came from U.S. Southwest border states. In particular, about 70 percent of these firearms came from Texas, California, and Arizona. Figure 5 provides data on the top source states for firearms trafficked to Mexico and traced from fiscal year 2004 to fiscal year 2008."

"based on information from their operations and investigations, many seized guns also come from private sales at gun shows, though it is impossible to know this exact number due to the lack of records kept for such purchases, which is discussed further below."

"Gun shows. According to ATF officials, individuals can use straw purchasers as they would at gun shops to acquire guns from gun shops with booths at gun shows. In addition, individuals can also purchase guns at gun shows from other individuals making sales from their private collections. These private sales require no background checks of the purchaser and require no record be made or kept of the sale. ATF officials told us this prevents their knowing what percentage of the problem of arms trafficking to Mexico comes from these private sales at gun shows.

I guess not...

 

[TurtleDude]

I guess not...

what catawba either won't tell us or probably doesn't know is that the ATF Can ONLY TRACE weapons that were MADE in the USA

 

[Catawba]

what catawba either won't tell us or probably doesn't know is that the ATF Can ONLY TRACE weapons that were MADE in the USA

That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, but then your posts rarely do.

 

[Catawba]

I guess not...

According to the far right..........

 

[TurtleDude]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, but then your posts rarely do.

so your post didn't reference ATF claims concerning weapons traced back to the USA

 

[TurtleDude]

According to the far right..........

Far right being anyone who doesn't want to pass silly, unenforceable feel good emotobased laws that are designed to fail so people like you can demand another set of laws designed to get us closer to the gun bans you already admitted you want?

 

[Catawba]

so your post didn't reference ATF claims concerning weapons traced back to the USA

The report didn't jump to the far right rail as you did and claim that because guns couldn't be traced to unlicensed sellers, they were not a significant source of guns getting into the hands of criminals in both the US and Mexico.

 

[TurtleDude]

The report didn't jump to the far right rail as you did and claim that because guns couldn't be traced to unlicensed buyers, they were not a significant source of guns getting into the hands of criminals in both the US and Mexico.

what you appear not to comprehend is that when the ATF claims that 87% of the guns TRACED came from the USA it makes it sound like most guns used by the cartels in MEXICO came from the USA when in reality guns coming from VENEZUELA, COLUMBIA, RUSSIA, the PRC, etc CANNOT BE TRACED.

So like many things this administration does, the actual facts are far less damning of american gun rights than the gun banning propagandists would have people believe

 

[TurtleDude]

The report didn't jump to the far right rail as you did and claim that because guns couldn't be traced to unlicensed buyers, they were not a significant source of guns getting into the hands of criminals in both the US and Mexico.

you rant constantly about "unlicencesed buyers" when in reality most americans who own guns don't need a license to do so