Beyond L and G?

[Mr. Invisible]

I posted this in the group Rainbow Friends, but I wanted to get more feedback from the larger DP community.



Currently in mainstream society there is much attention focused on LGBT rights, yet the main voices that are being heard are that of the L and the G part of the community with the emphasis being on same sex marriage and there being no emphasis on bisexual or transgender rights. Personally, I think this is quite problematic as while SSM is definitely important, the rates of attacks on trans* people is extremely high, especially when one is a transwoman of color. There is also the problem of intimate partner violence among bisexuals. While this may get a lot of attention online, it really doesn't get much, if any play, in the mainstream media and thus most people don't really know the problems that are facing bisexuals and trans* people. It seems that in the mainstream, the only thing people connect to when they hear LGBT is gay marriage. Is there a way go beyond the L and G in LGBT?

 

[CriticalThought]

I posted this in the group Rainbow Friends, but I wanted to get more feedback from the larger DP community.



Currently in mainstream society there is much attention focused on LGBT rights, yet the main voices that are being heard are that of the L and the G part of the community with the emphasis being on same sex marriage and there being no emphasis on bisexual or transgender rights. Personally, I think this is quite problematic as while SSM is definitely important, the rates of attacks on trans* people is extremely high, especially when one is a transwoman of color. There is also the problem of intimate partner violence among bisexuals. While this may get a lot of attention online, it really doesn't get much, if any play, in the mainstream media and thus most people don't really know the problems that are facing bisexuals and trans* people. It seems that in the mainstream, the only thing people connect to when they hear LGBT is gay marriage. Is there a way go beyond the L and G in LGBT?

Gender issues go deeper than sexual issues. There are plenty of Ls and Gs who are quite prejudiced against Bs and Ts.

 

[CLAX1911]

As a bisexual man, most of the bigotry I received is from gay men. Very little, in fact the only bigotry I received from heterosexuals was on this website.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I think the invisibility of bisexuals and transgender people is due to several reasons.

1. Bisexuals are often less "threatening" to heterosexual society since they are attracted to, and often have relationships with, the opposite sex. Because of that, the problems they face as a group are often minimized and trivialized since they can "pass" for straight in society. Moreover, since bisexuals are attracted to TWO genders, then that makes them different from both straight and gay people.

2. Transgenders challenge both straight and gay people's perceptions of reality. Because they challenge gender norms, they are alone, in a sense, in their fight because their reality of feeling like they're in the wrong body is not easy for either straight or gay people to identify with. After all, even straight people can understand what it's like to be attracted to someone which is a means of uniting gay and straight people, but neither straight nor gay people have an understanding of what it feels like to have one's body be the wrong gender/sex.

3. In a society where gay people have been rejected by straight people, many gay people use the denigration of bisexuals and transgenders as a means of connecting with heterosexual society. As others have said, there are plenty of gay people who are prejudiced against both Bs and Ts. I have certainly heard quite a few gay men and women say how they "would never date a bisexual because they always cheat" or that transgender people are just "freaks" and other nonsense. With those people, I've always felt that their prejudice comes directly from a sense of insecurity about their own place in society as a gay man or woman - and that, by denigrating Bs and Ts, they can say that someone is even more alienated from "hetereonormative" society.

4. The gay rights movement has gotten more visibility than bisexual and transgender movements. It may have gotten more visibility, at least in part, because of the reasons listed above, but it's gotten more visibility nonetheless. Because of that increased presence in society, its concerns have been more heard than those of bisexual and transgender individuals.

As far as going beyond L and G, I think serious education about the nature of sexuality and gender in schools is the best way to go about it. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who are afraid to let their kids learn about such subjects so implementing such education standards is difficult, but I think it's necessary. Beyond that, I would say that bisexuals and transgenders need to emphasize their own movements SEPARATE FROM gay organizations to push understanding of their experiences.

 

[calamity]

IMO, self-identifying "transpeople" are problematic. For instance, we all know and accept, respecting the plight of the harmless ultra-femme who just wants to be a girl, but few of us are willing to admit that there also exists this:

The twisted, dangerous male psychopath who thinks he should be a woman and will stop at nothing to pursue his delusions.

For this and other reasons, I hesitate to accept trans as I do gays. Color me biased on this, but I side with a subset of the feminists on this one.
Feminists versus transsexuals: Julie Burchill, Suzanne Moore and The Observer spark civil war on the Left – Telegraph Blogs

The dispute began when Suzanne Moore wrote a piece for The New Statesman about feminist fury in modern Britain. Buried in the middle of it was a sentence that read, “[Women] are angry with ourselves for not being happier, not being loved properly and not having the ideal body shape – that of a Brazilian transsexual.” Personally, I wasn’t offended by the phrase “body … of a Brazilian transsexual” – but then it’s not my place to decide what’s offensive and what’s not when it comes to transgenderism. I’ve not been born in the wrong body, fought for years for the right to change it, undergone complex surgery and then suffered the bigotry of others. Some of those who did find Moore’s line unamusing asked her on Twitter if she could redact it. All Moore had to do was apologise for potential offence caused (the old “get out clause” for not actually correcting anything). Instead she made a “robust” defence of herself that climaxed in a tweet that could easily have been written on a toilet wall: “People can just f*** off really. Cut their dicks off and be more feminist than me. Good for them.”

 

[Carjosse]

Well here the government just passed a bill extending constitutional protections to transgendered people.

 

[sangha]

<---- He resents your dishonest attempt to mischaracterize a fictional character

IMO, self-identifying "transpeople" are problematic. For instance, we all know and accept, respecting the plight of the harmless ultra-femme who just wants to be a girl, but few of us are willing to admit that there also exists this:

The twisted, dangerous male psychopath who thinks he should be a woman and will stop at nothing to pursue his delusions.

 

[calamity]

<---- He resents your dishonest attempt to mischaracterize a fictional character

It was the easiest way to make the point. Here's a real-life criminal psycho playing the "transgender game".

Transgender woman on parole for child sex assault | khou.com Houston

From the purse to painted fingernails, Paula Witherspoon said she has been living as a transgender woman since 2006.

Last Wednesday, she was using a women's restroom at Parkland Hospital when someone reported her to police

...Her real name is Paul Ray Witherspoon.

According to state records, he was sentenced to 16 years for sexual assault of a child in 1990, and six years for indecency with a child.

Parkland police discovered all this information during questioning, along with the fact that Witherspoon is still on parole.

 

[joko104]

One Bisexual woman claimed she believes there are many reasons people can take offense against Bisexuals is for 2 reasons:

1. The same prejudice against gays by straights is also reason for both gays and straights to be prejudice against bisexuals. In her opinion, gay and straights are the same - both have relationship prejudices based on gender.

2. Bisexuals poise a relationship threat to everyone. A straight only has to worry about competition from someone of the same gender. A gay also only has to too. But bisexually poise a competition to everyone.

3. People believe bisexually then inherently are none monogamous and promiscuous. This can add to frustration then if rejected by a bisexual.

4. While many people believe a person is born straight, or born gay, no one is born bisexual.

5. People commonly dislike people who are different from them.

6. Some people believe bisexually are inherently disloyal romantically.

7. Secretly, many people are jealous of bisexuals freedom.

 

[joko104]

I think there are perfectly "real" transexuals, people who are as a fetish only, and people who do it for attention grabbing. You generally will not know a true transexual is a transexual unless the person tells you.

Many people confuse transexuals with she-males.

 

[joko104]

Another complexity to bisexuals is that many bisexuals still have a gender preference either for sex, relationship or both. Many bisexual women are "oriented/prefer" a man/men for sex and relationship, but also can enjoy and have a woman for sex and friendship.

In some cultures, women having female sexual playmates and friends is entirely acceptable and seen as non-threatening to the men. However, that does not apply to men having male playmates and friends, nor to allowing a woman to have other men for sex.

The acceptance of women having other women may stem historically to 1.) 2 women can't get each other pregnant (why a wife can have other women but no other men) and 2.) since many such cultures allowed a man to have as many women as he could have - meaning more women than he could "service," allowing women to have other women was both "fair" and get his women from nagging him for sex, when he had more women than he could please often enough.

I think now overwhelmingly bisexuals in the USA are female and young, BUT I do think that is because 1.) it is less intimidating and seems less dangerous then men and 2.) is more about just enjoying sensuality and sexuality rather than an "orientation." I think most have a relationship preference one way or the other.

So some will ultimately marry/mate with a man, others with a woman - with most becoming monogamous one way or the other. Bisexually are no more or less promiscuous than anyone else.

 

[calamity]

I think there are perfectly "real" transexuals, people who are as a fetish only, and people who do it for attention grabbing. You generally will not know a true transexual is a transexual unless the person tells you.

Many people confuse transexuals with she-males.

Yep. There are perfectly straight males who get off wearing dresses but self-identify purely as males. The same applies to the opposite gender. There are also sexually straight males who self-identify as females. Self-identifying females who are attracted to males, and psychopaths who dissociate and think they are another gender when acting out violent crime.

There are so many variants that it becomes hard to tell the differences without a scorecard.

 

[sangha]

It was the easiest way to make the point. Here's a real-life criminal psycho playing the "transgender game".

Transgender woman on parole for child sex assault | khou.com Houston

apples and oranges. Transgenderism had nothing to do with the crime. Plenty of non-trans people commit sexual crimes involving children

 

[calamity]

apples and oranges. Transgenderism had nothing to do with the crime. Plenty of non-trans people commit sexual crimes involving children

I am not pointing at Trans. I am pointing to a clearly deranged individual hiding under the trans label. There is a big difference.

 

[sangha]

I am not pointing at Trans. I am pointing to a clearly deranged individual hiding under the trans label. There is a big difference.

You're still spouting nonsense. How is that person "hiding under the trans label"??

 

[calamity]

You're still spouting nonsense. How is that person "hiding under the trans label"??

You think he's legit trans? I think he's a psycho in a dress, myself.

 

[sangha]

You think he's legit trans? I think he's a psycho in a dress, myself.

I don't care. He's status is irrelevant, which explains why you completely ducked my question:

How is that person "hiding under the trans label"?

 

[calamity]

I don't care. He's status is irrelevant, which explains why you completely ducked my question:

How is that person "hiding under the trans label"?

Oh, I thought that was obvious. I don't think he is trans, but rather he is using it as a convenient excuse to gain access to women's only facilities, where he probably gets off.

 

[Paschendale]

In terms of rights, there really aren't any that bisexuals need beyond those of homosexuals. But there is a lot of unwarranted prejudice and mistrust of bis. Gays and straights alike demand that bis "choose a side" and there are many who have mistaken notions about bisexuals as necessarily unfaithful or polyamorous. There was a thread on this site a while back where people commented that they could never date an "active" bisexual. Bisexual doesn't mean maintaining concurrent relationships with men and women at the same time. There's no active or passive. There's just people who have attraction to members of both genders. It doesn't mean anything else. A lot of people don't get that.

 

[sangha]

Oh, I thought that was obvious. I don't think he is trans, but rather he is using it as a convenient excuse to gain access to women's only facilities, where he probably gets off.

I don't see that or how he is "hiding under the trans label"

 

[calamity]

I don't see that or how he is "hiding under the trans label"

He's a child molester who now says he is trans. What do you see that as?

 

[molten_dragon]

I posted this in the group Rainbow Friends, but I wanted to get more feedback from the larger DP community.



Currently in mainstream society there is much attention focused on LGBT rights, yet the main voices that are being heard are that of the L and the G part of the community with the emphasis being on same sex marriage and there being no emphasis on bisexual or transgender rights. Personally, I think this is quite problematic as while SSM is definitely important, the rates of attacks on trans* people is extremely high, especially when one is a transwoman of color. There is also the problem of intimate partner violence among bisexuals. While this may get a lot of attention online, it really doesn't get much, if any play, in the mainstream media and thus most people don't really know the problems that are facing bisexuals and trans* people. It seems that in the mainstream, the only thing people connect to when they hear LGBT is gay marriage. Is there a way go beyond the L and G in LGBT?

I think the problems transgender people face are less talked about simply because there are a lot fewer of them. Most research studies show that there are about 10x as many people who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual as identify as transgender.

And I think there are a couple things that play into it with bisexuals. One being that they can more easily pass for straight if they want to, so people may not know they are bisexual. And the other is that a lot of the problems they might face are the same ones faced by gay people, so the solutions are kind of the same.

 

[tessaesque]

IMO, self-identifying "transpeople" are problematic. For instance, we all know and accept, respecting the plight of the harmless ultra-femme who just wants to be a girl, but few of us are willing to admit that there also exists this:

The twisted, dangerous male psychopath who thinks he should be a woman and will stop at nothing to pursue his delusions.

For this and other reasons, I hesitate to accept trans as I do gays. Color me biased on this, but I side with a subset of the feminists on this one.
Feminists versus transsexuals: Julie Burchill, Suzanne Moore and The Observer spark civil war on the Left – Telegraph Blogs

You're comparing a fictional character from a movie with the millions of non-violent, non-deranged transgendered individuals worldwide in order to justify a bias against them?

 

[tessaesque]

He's a child molester who now says he is trans. What do you see that as?

Two entirely separate issues?

 

[calamity]

You're comparing a fictional character from a movie with the millions of non-violent, non-deranged transgendered individuals worldwide in order to justify a bias against them?

I went through this already with Sangha. Please see Post #8 for my initial reply.