Army says new war-ready M17 pistol will change modern combat

[TurtleDude]

The argument that was presented is that kinetic energy is the primary deciding factor in regards to a round's leathality and if that's the case, the 9mm can be just as lethal as the 45 ACP. It was in response to the hype surrounding the 6.6 CM.

normal calculations of energy suggest that the 115 FMJ going around 1175 FPS has more energy than the 230 FMJ going around 850. there is no doubt-based on what I have read including the famous Hatcher studies, and those of Evan Marshall and others later on-that when limited to FMJ, a 45ACP is a slightly better one shot stopper than a 9mm. With modern expanding ammo-its inconclusive. I also believe that with FMJ, the lethality is up on the air-usually, the deeper the puncture the more likely death is going to happen and a 9mm FMJ usually has better penetration

 

[SLC]

I'm merely pointing out that a 9mm can be just as lethal as a 45 ACP.

But you said: "'If kinetic energy is the only deciding factor, then there's no way a 45 ACP can be more lethal that a 9mm Luger"

A well placed 22 short can kill you just as dead as a 45 ACP. But in general the more kinetic energy absorbed by the target the more lethal the round. And a .45 ACP produces more ft.lbs. of Kinetic energy than a 9 mm does in General.

I think I have demonstrated that in general .45 ACP is a superior round than a 9mm and has more killing power.

 

[TurtleDude]

But you said:

Well a well placed 22 short can kill you just as dead as a 45 ACP. But in general the more kinetic energy absorbed by the target the more lethal the round. And a .45 ACP produces more ft.lbs. of Kinetic energy than a 9 mm does in General.

a baseball bat to the chest swung by say an average woman produces far more foot lbs than a rapier thrust to the same area by an average woman. which one is more likely to kill you?

Years ago I read an interesting study-the sort of things I used to read all the time. It was about big game hunters in Botswana and the RSA who had witnessed hundreds of cases of big game being shot with heavy rifles. Often similar animals of similar size shot in the same places with the same rifles. and they wondered why-a hunter with say 338 would shoot an 1800 pound Eland an inch behind its shoulder at a ninety degree (broadside) angle-and the Eland would collapse and a week later-another Eland, shot in exactly the same place with the same bullet would run a couple hundred yards. and they tried to factor in how agitated the animal was (adrenalin) etc. Nothing made sense until they figured out that if the bullet hit the animal at the instant its heart was beating, the hydrostatic shock was greatly accentuated.

the point is-that its really hard to predict the reaction of someone who is shot-especially with a pistol cartridge

 

[SLC]

normal calculations of energy suggest that the 115 FMJ going around 1175 FPS has more energy than the 230 FMJ going around 850. there is no doubt-based on what I have read including the famous Hatcher studies, and those of Evan Marshall and others later on-that when limited to FMJ, a 45ACP is a slightly better one shot stopper than a 9mm. With modern expanding ammo-its inconclusive. I also believe that with FMJ, the lethality is up on the air-usually, the deeper the puncture the more likely death is going to happen and a 9mm FMJ usually has better penetration

At normal handgun range a .45 ACP has no difficulty penetrating the human body. As demonstrated by ballistic gelatin.

 

[Bum]

Just off the cuff....

Energy is very important but it only tells half the story. If you want a real comparison between cartridges, momentum (measured in pounds feet per second or lb-f/s) is IMO a more complete form of measurement.



45 ACP, 230 gr @ 850 fps = 27.9 lb-f/s
45 ACP, 200 gr @ 940 fps = 26.9 lb-f/s
45 ACP, 185 gr @ 1000 fps = 26.4 lb-f/s


9mm, 147 gr @ 990 fps = 20.8 lb-f/s
9mm, 124 gr @ 1120 fps = 19.8 lb-f/s
9mm, 115 gr @ 1155 fps = 19.0 lb-f/s

*edit

The above is assuming standard ball

 

[TurtleDude]

At normal handgun range a .45 ACP has no difficulty penetrating the human body.

true-interesting shooting I remember reading about. Armed guards or cops get into gunfight with mopes. I cannot remember who had the 1911 with hardball but he went for a head shot. As he shot, the target was spinning around either to return fire or face another shooter. bullet hits the head and travels under the skin next to the skull and goes partially around the skull and exits into (IIRC) a wall near the shooter!. victim survives-has a concussion and one very interesting scar

 

[SLC]

Years ago as part of my training I rode with paramedics in Denver. We answered a police shooting of two suspects. The suspects robbed a convenience store and tried to run over a cop in a parking lot. As the suspect's car came by him he jumped back and fired one 357 round into the driver's window. The driver had the 357 bullet go in left chest and pass through his heart and exited his right chest and then it went into his passenger's left chest and went though his aorta and stopped in his chest. We picked up the second suspect and we did CPR but obviously it didn't work. Another ambulance picked up the driver and he died too.

But in general how much Kinetic energy imparted to the target is a good indicator of lethality. If a bullet travels through a target and keeps on going some of its kinetic energy was wasted. If you look at ballistic gel tests the 45 ACP will travel 12 inchs or more in ballistic gel and the shock wave path will be larger than the 9mm which may travel an inch or so more .

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

You must have been watching a MSNBC report on why "assault weapons" need to be banned!

No, just as I know the difference between Plastic Poop and S***, I know the difference between an "assault weapon" and something that looks like an "assault weapon".

Hell, I can even tell the difference between Mr. Trump and a "President".

 

[TurtleDude]

No, just as I know the difference between Plastic Poop and S***, I know the difference between an "assault weapon" and something that looks like an "assault weapon".

Hell, I can even tell the difference between Mr. Trump and a "President".

really-so Hillary would have looked like a real president to you. Its amazing how Trump occupies so many minds around here. He has nothing to do with this discussion and yet you cannot help but to bring him up.

 

[SLC]

No, just as I know the difference between Plastic Poop and S***, I know the difference between an "assault weapon" and something that looks like an "assault weapon".

Hell, I can even tell the difference between Mr. Trump and a "President".

You had me until you said that then you blew all your credibility.

 

[apdst]

But you said: "'If kinetic energy is the only deciding factor, then there's no way a 45 ACP can be more lethal that a 9mm Luger"

A well placed 22 short can kill you just as dead as a 45 ACP. But in general the more kinetic energy absorbed by the target the more lethal the round. And a .45 ACP produces more ft.lbs. of Kinetic energy than a 9 mm does in General.

I think I have demonstrated that in general .45 ACP is a superior round than a 9mm and has more killing power.

And, I restated for clarity.

 

[SLC]

And, I restated for clarity.

So I'll restate for clarity too. You were wrong. And now you are trying to move the goal posts.

 

[apdst]

So I'll restate for clarity too. You were wrong. And now you are trying to move the goal posts.

I'm not moving anything. I mispoke and you're taking advantage of it. You're a Conservative. You're better than that.

 

[SLC]

I'm not moving anything. I mispoke and you're taking advantage of it. You're a Conservative. You're better than that.

I'm just busting your B**** a little. :lol: I actual don't know a lot about guns other than their safe use. I do own several hand guns and a few rifles and some black powder stuff but I don't shoot as often as I would like too. I like your avatar pic. It still chaps me that Hirohito got to go to Disneyland and hang out with Mickey Mouse. They should have hung him.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

really-so Hillary would have looked like a real president to you.

Now that's an interesting conclusion to draw from the fact that my position is that NEITHER Ms. Clinton nor Mr. Trump were "fit" to be the President of the United States of America.

PS - I can also tell the difference between Ms. Clinton and a "President".

Its amazing how Trump occupies so many minds around here. He has nothing to do with this discussion and yet you cannot help but to bring him up.

Obviously you overlooked the fact that my statement was intended to indicate that my powers of observation and analysis were slightly greater than those of some others (yours for example).

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I'm just busting your B**** a little. :lol: I actual don't know a lot about guns other than their safe use.

Well colour me SURPRISED!

 

[SLC]

Well colour me SURPRISED!

I didn't say I didn't know more than you

 

[Lursa]

Thank you for keeping your string of not actually answering the questions which you were asked intact.

Would you like to double down by saying something like "I already answered that question."?

:lamo:lamo

 

[Lursa]

Did you know that "neither" is not an answer to "which is better"?

Thank you for keeping your record of not actually answering questions intact.

Would you like to try again?

:lamo

 

[Lursa]

Read the article. Facts are facts and you said the 6.5 Creedmore is too light.

:lamo

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I didn't say I didn't know more than you

True.

But you also didn't say that you know less about the military either.

BTW, you might be interested to know that the Department of Defence has just announced that it is going to "improve" the situation by introducing a new calibre of ammunition in a new weapon which will only be available to some of the military and that the remainder of the military will continue to rely of a different weapon. This increases the number of types of ammunition required at the "squad level" to four from the current three.

Can you say "Log - is - ti - cal - stu - pid - ity"?