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ARIZ. SHERIFF: Armed Militias beware or be shot

Unitedwestand13

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Ariz. sheriff: Armed militias beware or be shot

PHOENIX (AP) — Tough-talking Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio is warning civilians who embark on armed patrols in remote desert terrain that they could end up with "30 rounds fired into" them by one of his deputies.

His unapologetically terse comments came Tuesday after a member of an Arizona Minuteman border-watch movement was arrested over the weekend for pointing a rifle at a Maricopa County sheriff's deputy he apparently mistook for a drug smuggler.

"If they continue this there could be some dead militia out there," Arpaio said.

Richard Malley, 49, was heavily armed with two others dressed in camouflage Saturday night along Interstate 8 near Gila Bend, a known drug-trafficking corridor in the desert about 70 miles southwest of Phoenix, when he confronted the deputy who was on patrol conducting surveillance, authorities said.

According to court records, the deputy and his partner stopped their vehicle, then flashed their headlights and honked their horn, a common practice used by law enforcement to trick drug smugglers into thinking the car is there to transfer their narcotics load and lure them out of hiding.

The deputies then got out, also dressed in camouflage but clearly marked with sheriff's patches on their clothing, and began to track what appeared to be fresh footprints, authorities said.

That's when Malley emerged from the darkness with his rifle raised "yelling commands," according to the probable cause statement.

The deputy, illuminated by Malley's flashlight at this point, identified himself as law enforcement, pointing out the "word sheriff across his chest," and ordered Malley to drop his weapon.

"You aren't taking my weapons," replied Malley, who was armed with a semi-automatic rifle, a .45 caliber handgun and a knife, according to court records.

Another deputy eventually arrived and arrested Malley for aggravated assault. He was released on $10,000 bail and is set for a court appearance on Aug. 26. It wasn't clear if Malley had an attorney, and telephone numbers listed for him were disconnected.

Malley claimed "he had the right to point his rifle at the individual because he had reasonable suspicion to believe a crime was occurring," according to the probable cause statement. He identified himself as a "militia Minuteman."

Such Minuteman-type militias of armed civilians patrolling the deserts for illegal border crossers and smugglers grew to prominence in the early 2000s, but the organizations' numbers have since dwindled as they fractured into multiple splinter groups, such as crews like Malley's who were on patrol with just three armed men.

Arpaio, whose county doesn't run along the border but has seen an increase in drug and human trafficking, warned there will be "chaos if you're going to have private citizens dressed just like our deputies taking the law into their own hands."
Very interesting article.
 

Lutherf

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It's a tough issue out here.

We have a whole lot of open desert out here that gets frequented by dirt bike riders, drug runners, recreational shooters, hikers, etc. There are also "militia" groups but not all these groups are created equally. Some are more interested in spotting drug/illegal trails and focus on putting up trail cameras then coordinating with CBP. Others have chosen to take a more "direct" approach and actually track down illegals and smugglers. Still others are mostly interested in ripping off the smugglers. We also have smugglers going after each other.

The groups I have been associated with always coordinate with one or another law enforcement group to let them know what area we will be in. That works pretty well but it's not fool proof since some of the "rip crews" dress like cops and kit up like cops. To further complicate things, the cops (as was mentioned in the article) occasionally act like smugglers in an attempt to lure the bad guys in. For that reason I tend to stick to daylight operations and surveillance (though I've even cut that back quite a bit) because the chances for a mistake are greatly reduced.
 

tererun

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I am pretty sure good old boy joe doesn't want to start threatening his support base. The guntards and racist dicks of the minutemen are the guys who put him into power, and without them he won't be sherrif for much longer. The good old boy code is when you see people doing the wrong thing and they are white racists like you, you look the other way as a cop. Jope's testicles might have started to grow a bit to big for his britches and the good old boys will cut him down to size if he starts screwing with white people. Don't get me wrong, if joe wants to start thinking he is king of the white people he is certainly welcome to take on the nutbars of his race. I am perfectly fine with anything he wants to do that expedites his removal as sheriff or from this mortal coil. If he wants to send ex-action hero stephen segal into the fray i am quite ok with that also. Perhaps he could hire chuck norris too and we could get rid of many useless twats all at once. Chuck norris, so bad ass he was killed by some inbred hick with an assault rifle looking for mexicans. Oh please santa i have been especially good this year and not killed any idiots so could you please bring me that headline for christmas and make sure it is from an actual news source?
 

Wiseone

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Wow something I agree with Sheriff Joe about. You mean I shouldn't be trolling around the desert looking for drug smugglers? Oh....

What would this guy have done exactly if they were smugglers? Execute them? Conduct a citizen's arrest? what?
 

Moot

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It's a tough issue out here.

We have a whole lot of open desert out here that gets frequented by dirt bike riders, drug runners, recreational shooters, hikers, etc. There are also "militia" groups but not all these groups are created equally. Some are more interested in spotting drug/illegal trails and focus on putting up trail cameras then coordinating with CBP. Others have chosen to take a more "direct" approach and actually track down illegals and smugglers. Still others are mostly interested in ripping off the smugglers. We also have smugglers going after each other.

The groups I have been associated with always coordinate with one or another law enforcement group to let them know what area we will be in. That works pretty well but it's not fool proof since some of the "rip crews" dress like cops and kit up like cops. To further complicate things, the cops (as was mentioned in the article) occasionally act like smugglers in an attempt to lure the bad guys in. For that reason I tend to stick to daylight operations and surveillance (though I've even cut that back quite a bit) because the chances for a mistake are greatly reduced.

So you're one of those the Sheriff is warning "could get 30 rounds fired into", eh? Seems like a rather foolish thing to do.


Wiseone asked a good question.: what would you do if you came across some armed smugglers in the desert, lutherf?
 
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ZapFinch42

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The sheriff deserves a medal for not just triple-tapping the jackass on the spot. THIS is why we have trained professionals (albeit few) guarding the border.
 

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So you're one of those the Sheriff is warning "could get 30 rounds fired into", eh? Seems like a rather foolish thing to do.


Wiseone asked a good question.: what would you do if you came across some armed smugglers in the desert, lutherf?
Shoot first and leave the bodies for the crows is a good answer I think.
 

tererun

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The sheriff deserves a medal for not just triple-tapping the jackass on the spot. THIS is why we have trained professionals (albeit few) guarding the border.
I would be totally willing to help fund a medal for joe. As long as it weighs about 12 tons and he is chained to it I am all for it.
 

mak2

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Yes, it kinda struck me as in house bickering too.
I am pretty sure good old boy joe doesn't want to start threatening his support base. The guntards and racist dicks of the minutemen are the guys who put him into power, and without them he won't be sherrif for much longer. The good old boy code is when you see people doing the wrong thing and they are white racists like you, you look the other way as a cop. Jope's testicles might have started to grow a bit to big for his britches and the good old boys will cut him down to size if he starts screwing with white people. Don't get me wrong, if joe wants to start thinking he is king of the white people he is certainly welcome to take on the nutbars of his race. I am perfectly fine with anything he wants to do that expedites his removal as sheriff or from this mortal coil. If he wants to send ex-action hero stephen segal into the fray i am quite ok with that also. Perhaps he could hire chuck norris too and we could get rid of many useless twats all at once. Chuck norris, so bad ass he was killed by some inbred hick with an assault rifle looking for mexicans. Oh please santa i have been especially good this year and not killed any idiots so could you please bring me that headline for christmas and make sure it is from an actual news source?
 

Captain Adverse

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We don't need "armed militias" patrolling the deserts, or anywhere else (other than their own clearly marked private property) for that matter. Under our Constitution, if a group wishes to form a "militia" it must be "well-regulated." This means a well-trained and disciplined military force, not a "police force."

If and when we go to "war" with Mexico, then maybe a volunteer force can be instructed to patrol the border. Meanwhile protect your homes and communities and stop making a nuisance of yourselves.

Let properly trained law enforcement personnel do their jobs.
 
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Lutherf

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So you're one of those the Sheriff is warning "could get 30 rounds fired into", eh? Seems like a rather foolish thing to do.


Wiseone asked a good question.: what would you do if you came across some armed smugglers in the desert, lutherf?
That would depend entirely upon the circumstances. Assuming that I saw them and they didn't see me I'd just call it in.
 

Lutherf

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We don't need "armed militias" patrolling the deserts, or anywhere else (other than their own clearly marked private property) for that matter. Under our Constitution, if a group wishes to form a "militia" it must be "well-regulated." This means a well-trained and disciplined military force, not a "police force."

If and when we go to "war" with Mexico, then maybe a volunteer force can be instructed to patrol the border. Meanwhile protect your homes and communities and stop making a nuisance of yourselves.

Let properly trained law enforcement personnel do their jobs.
Actually, militia groups can be quite useful as a force multiplier. Setting trail cams and scouting for entry routes is incredibly manpower intensive so volunteer groups picking up some of the slack can be a great help as long as they coordinate with law enforcement.
 

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That would depend entirely upon the circumstances. Assuming that I saw them and they didn't see me I'd just call it in.
If you had to shoot someone, I seriously doubt you would be able to claim self defense like Zimmerman did. Because you really are going to the desert looking to confront people instead of letting the police do their jobs.
 

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If you had to shoot someone, I seriously doubt you would be able to claim self defense like Zimmerman did. Because you really are going to the desert looking to confront people instead of letting the police do their jobs.
That's not true at all. Like I said before, it depends on the circumstances. If your goal is to locate drug and/or human trafficking routes then you are going to be focused on observation instead of confrontation. It's a whole lot better to simply spot a group and call in CBP or the SO to cut the group off farther up the trail. There is always the possibility that a human group will simply be running blocker for a group of mules so you don't want to expose yourself to the little fish while the big fish are sitting back waiting. The other issue is that some mules have spotters keeping an eye on them and it would kind of suck to stop them only to get a .338 lapua round in the back from the hilltop off to the side.

If you run into a situation where you have to shoot then you shoot but you damned sure shouldn't be going out looking for a reason to do so.
 

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I am pretty sure good old boy joe doesn't want to start threatening his support base. The guntards and racist dicks of the minutemen are the guys who put him into power, and without them he won't be sherrif for much longer. The good old boy code is when you see people doing the wrong thing and they are white racists like you, you look the other way as a cop. Jope's testicles might have started to grow a bit to big for his britches and the good old boys will cut him down to size if he starts screwing with white people. Don't get me wrong, if joe wants to start thinking he is king of the white people he is certainly welcome to take on the nutbars of his race. I am perfectly fine with anything he wants to do that expedites his removal as sheriff or from this mortal coil. If he wants to send ex-action hero stephen segal into the fray i am quite ok with that also. Perhaps he could hire chuck norris too and we could get rid of many useless twats all at once. Chuck norris, so bad ass he was killed by some inbred hick with an assault rifle looking for mexicans. Oh please santa i have been especially good this year and not killed any idiots so could you please bring me that headline for christmas and make sure it is from an actual news source?
Now that is a pretty bigoted post.
 

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I can't remember ever agreeing with Arpaio on anything but he's right here. Private groups have no place patrolling public lands. Disaster waiting to happen.
 

radcen

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I can't remember ever agreeing with Arpaio on anything but he's right here. Private groups have no place patrolling public lands. Disaster waiting to happen.
This statement presumes that patrolling one's own private land would be acceptable, and the sheriff's office should stay off unless legally actively chasing someone or granted access, correct?
 

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Sure you can build a damn fortress on your own land, if zoning allows.
This statement presumes that patrolling one's own private land would be acceptable, and the sheriff's office should stay off unless legally actively chasing someone or granted access, correct?
 

Moot

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That's not true at all. Like I said before, it depends on the circumstances. If your goal is to locate drug and/or human trafficking routes then you are going to be focused on observation instead of confrontation. It's a whole lot better to simply spot a group and call in CBP or the SO to cut the group off farther up the trail. There is always the possibility that a human group will simply be running blocker for a group of mules so you don't want to expose yourself to the little fish while the big fish are sitting back waiting. The other issue is that some mules have spotters keeping an eye on them and it would kind of suck to stop them only to get a .338 lapua round in the back from the hilltop off to the side.

If you run into a situation where you have to shoot then you shoot but you damned sure shouldn't be going out looking for a reason to do so.
What you fail to understand is that it's not your job to go looking for drug or human traffikers in the desert at all...as Sheriff Arapio so astutely pointed out. If you run into a situation where you have to shoot someone, you will not be able to claim self defense because you had no lawful right or business being there and taking the law into your hands in the first place. The laws does not look kindly on vigilantism ...and neither do the vast majority of the American people who believe in the rule of law.....

"The foundation of the American legal system rests on the Rule of Law, a concept embodied in the notion that the United States is a nation of laws and not of men. Under the rule of law, laws are thought to exist independent of, and separate from, human will. Even when the human element factors into legal decision making, the decision maker is expected to be constrained by the law in making his or her decision. In other words, police officers, judges, and juries should act according to the law and not according to their personal preferences or private agendas.

State and federal governments are given what amounts to a Monopoly over the use of force and violence to implement the law. Private citizens may use force and violence to defend their lives and their property, and in some instances the lives and property of others, but they must do so under the specific circumstances allowed by the law if they wish to avoid being prosecuted for a crime themselves. Private individuals may also make "citizen arrests," but the circumstances in which the law authorizes them to do so are very narrow. Citizens are often limited to making arrests for felonies committed in their presence. By taking law into their own hands, vigilantes flout the rule of law, effectively becoming lawmaker, police officer, judge, jury, and appellate court for the cause they are pursuing....<snip>....

The motivations underlying acts of vigilantism vary according to the individual vigilante. Some vigilantes seek to carry out personal agendas to protest existing law. Others seek to enforce existing law as they interpret, define, or understand it. Still others seek to implement or call attention to some kind of higher law that they feel overrules the norms established by society's designated lawmaking institutions. Since no state or federal jurisdiction offers any kind of "vigilante defense" to criminal prosecution, vigilantes must rely on the moral rectitude of their cause to justify their acts. Yet the morality of most acts of vigilantism is relative to whether one is the perpetrator or victim of vigilantism, as the targets of vigilantism rarely agree that the acts were justified....read...."

Vigilantism legal definition of Vigilantism. Vigilantism synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
In short, vigilantism is illegal and those who engage in it are little more than the neo-nazi thugs mentioned in this article....

Vigilantes Gather in Arizona
 

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What you fail to understand is that it's not your job to go looking for drug or human traffikers in the desert at all...as Sheriff Arapio so astutely pointed out. If you run into a situation where you have to shoot someone, you will not be able to claim self defense because you had no lawful right or business being there and taking the law into your hands in the first place. The laws does not look kindly on vigilantism ...and neither do the vast majority of the American people who believe in the rule of law.....



In short, vigilantism is illegal and those who engage in it are little more than the neo-nazi thugs mentioned in this article....

Vigilantes Gather in Arizona
What you fail to realize is that a lot of the territory along the border is private property and keeping people who are prone to robbing you, messing up your fences and wells and trashing your property is NOT something you have to tolerate.

-edit-

I'll even go you one farther....every year we have several dozen people die out here trying to cross illegally. If, in being out there and spotting some of these people we can save a few lives then I figure that alone makes the effort worth it.
 

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What you fail to realize is that a lot of the territory along the border is private property and keeping people who are prone to robbing you, messing up your fences and wells and trashing your property is NOT something you have to tolerate.

-edit-

I'll even go you one farther....every year we have several dozen people die out here trying to cross illegally. If, in being out there and spotting some of these people we can save a few lives then I figure that alone makes the effort worth it.
Unfortunately for you that is not the picture that Sheriff Arapio is painting with your vigiliantism. According to him, you just make their job harder by setting off border alarms and damn near killing his deputies...not to mention the cold blooded murder of immigrants crossing the border.


These so called minute men militias are little more than cowardly racist thugs.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/u...ng-5-dead-in-arizona-police-confirm.html?_r=0

'Minutemen' Vigilante Shawna Forde Guilty in Deadly Arizona Home Invasion - ABC News

Are American Vigilantes Hunting Down and Murdering Immigrants as They Cross the Arizona Border? | Alternet
 

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That would depend entirely upon the circumstances. Assuming that I saw them and they didn't see me I'd just call it in.
What would you do in the circumstances outlined in the OP?

According to court records, the deputy and his partner stopped their vehicle, then flashed their headlights and honked their horn, a common practice used by law enforcement to trick drug smugglers into thinking the car is there to transfer their narcotics load and lure them out of hiding.

The deputies then got out, also dressed in camouflage but clearly marked with sheriff's patches on their clothing, and began to track what appeared to be fresh footprints, authorities said.

That's when Malley emerged from the darkness with his rifle raised "yelling commands," according to the probable cause statement.

The deputy, illuminated by Malley's flashlight at this point, identified himself as law enforcement, pointing out the "word sheriff across his chest," and ordered Malley to drop his weapon.

"You aren't taking my weapons," replied Malley, who was armed with a semi-automatic rifle, a .45 caliber handgun and a knife, according to court records.
A truck pulls up, flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The occupants get out and start following your tracks.

Do you jump out and start shouting commands at them?

When they claim to be LE, do you believe them or do you refuse to disarm as instructed?
 

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Unfortunately for you that is not the picture that Sheriff Arapio is painting with your vigiliantism. According to him, you just make their job harder by setting off border alarms and damn near killing his deputies...not to mention the cold blooded murder of immigrants crossing the border.


These so called minute men militias are little more than cowardly racist thugs.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/u...ng-5-dead-in-arizona-police-confirm.html?_r=0

'Minutemen' Vigilante Shawna Forde Guilty in Deadly Arizona Home Invasion - ABC News

Are American Vigilantes Hunting Down and Murdering Immigrants as They Cross the Arizona Border? | Alternet
Arpaio is talking about certain groups, not all groups.

A few things you should be aware of:
1. Maricopa County (Arpaio's jurisdiction) is not on the border.
2. There are LOTS of groups that use the desert for LOTS of reasons.
3. Shawna Ford was kicked out of the MCDC because she was a freak. Turns out it was a good idea to kick her out too.
4. These murders you read about on Alternet are generally perpetrated by "rip crews" who are hunting drug runners and stealing their loads.
5. Many of the "militia" groups also serve as search and rescue groups trying to prevent as much unnecessary death as possible.
6. Most of us aren't anti-Mexican. We're anti-illegal immigrant.
 
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