ARIZ. SHERIFF: Armed Militias beware or be shot

[Lutherf]

What would you do in the circumstances outlined in the OP?



A truck pulls up, flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The occupants get out and start following your tracks.

Do you jump out and start shouting commands at them?

When they claim to be LE, do you believe them or do you refuse to disarm as instructed?

I haven't run into that particular situation but depending on certain other factors I'd probably have one person make contact while the others provided cover. Generally speaking we'd see the vehicle from a way off and have a decent ID on it before any contact was made.

 

[Gaius46]

This statement presumes that patrolling one's own private land would be acceptable, and the sheriff's office should stay off unless legally actively chasing someone or granted access, correct?

Sure. Given the current state and cheapness of surveillance technology I can't imagine why anyone that worried about trespassers would choose to but sure have at it.

 

[sangha]

I haven't run into that particular situation but depending on certain other factors I'd probably have one person make contact while the others provided cover. Generally speaking we'd see the vehicle from a way off and have a decent ID on it before any contact was made.

You're dodging.

The vehicle pulls up. It flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The car is not marked as LE because they want to fool smugglers into thinking that they are there to pick up drugs

They get out, and start tracking your footprints. You go to see what's up.

Do you jump out and start shouting commands at them?

When they claim to be LE, do you believe them or do you refuse to disarm as instructed?

 

[Lutherf]

You're dodging.

The vehicle pulls up. It flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The car is not marked as LE because they want to fool smugglers into thinking that they are there to pick up drugs

They get out, and start tracking your footprints. You go to see what's up.

Do you jump out and start shouting commands at them?

When they claim to be LE, do you believe them or do you refuse to disarm as instructed?

The problem is that the scenario is very, very improbable.

I don't know the whole story behind what got Arpaio's knickers in a twist but I can pretty much guarantee you that it wasn't entirely as reported.

Day or night an approaching vehicle is more than a little obvious so if I'm out there observing I am DEFINITELY going to know it's on its way. If it stops at MY tracks and they get out then I'll figure its LE because a drug pickup will be looking for their sign, not just any old tracks. I would also be fairly familiar with the vehicles that most LE units use and pretty much all of them are marked. Now, if it was an unmarked vehicle and the guys that got out didn't act like LE I'd be more likely to make tracks than to confront them. If, at that point, they announced themselves as LE I'd respond as I said before by sending one guy. I figure that most guys that are just picking up a load are not going to give chase if I take off. Hell, they'll probably be too busy getting their asses out of there to worry about me.

I'm going to hazard a guess that the deal with the MCSO involved Malley being an asshole. Here's a little more background -
1. Apparently Malley identified himself as a member of the Minutemen. That raises a red flag for me since the MCDC (Minuteman Civil Defense Corps) disbanded 3 years ago. The remnants of that group are now Arizona Border Defenders.
2. The "Minuteman" label was dropped because of issues with Gilchrist and, frankly, the ties to Shawna Forde (although we kicked her out well before she exposed herself as a murdering thug). Nobody with any sense out here would use that tag.
3. Indications are that Malley initiated the contact with the MCSO as if he had some kind of authority. That's just stupid.
4. It also seems that Malley didn't back off when the deputies identified themselves. That's more stupid.
5. All things considered it seems to me that Mr. Malley is VERY fortunate that the deputies had more sense that he seems to have had.

In a nutshell, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it turns out that Mr. Malley has a record and that he had designs on ripping off a load of dope but walked into a deputy by mistake.

 

[sangha]

The problem is that the scenario is very, very improbable.

Improbable?

It actually happened!!

I don't know the whole story behind what got Arpaio's knickers in a twist but I can pretty much guarantee you that it wasn't entirely as reported.

Day or night an approaching vehicle is more than a little obvious so if I'm out there observing I am DEFINITELY going to know it's on its way. If it stops at MY tracks and they get out then I'll figure its LE because a drug pickup will be looking for their sign, not just any old tracks. I would also be fairly familiar with the vehicles that most LE units use and pretty much all of them are marked. Now, if it was an unmarked vehicle and the guys that got out didn't act like LE I'd be more likely to make tracks than to confront them.

The article specifically mentioned that they try to lure the traffickers by making them think their vehicle is the one the smugglers are waiting for. Assuming that the LE's vehicle is marked is like assuming that regular police conduct buy and bust ops with uniformed officers doing the buy.

You do understand the concept of "undercover" and "sting" operations, right?

If, at that point, they announced themselves as LE I'd respond as I said before by sending one guy. I figure that most guys that are just picking up a load are not going to give chase if I take off. Hell, they'll probably be too busy getting their asses out of there to worry about me.

Umm, LE's who are trying to "sting" someone don't announce themselves as LE.

And according to the article, the LE didn't identify themselves until *after* the man confronted them. So I'll ask again, and maybe this time you won't dodge it

The vehicle pulls up. It flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The car is not marked as LE because they want to fool smugglers into thinking that they are there to pick up drugs

They get out, and start tracking your footprints.

Now, at this point, they're on your tail. They are going to find you if you don't move. If you do run, they have every right to shoot at you. When they command you to stop, do you listen to the people who might be traffickers pretending to be cops, or do you keep running and get shot at?

At some point, you're going to have to confront the police. What do you do?

And please stop with the "I'd send someone else" BS. That's a dodge.

Tell me what the procedure is if you, or anyone else, goes to see what's up? Do they obey the commands of people who may not be LE?

 

[Lutherf]

Improbable?

It actually happened!!




The article specifically mentioned that they try to lure the traffickers by making them think their vehicle is the one the smugglers are waiting for. Assuming that the LE's vehicle is marked is like assuming that regular police conduct buy and bust ops with uniformed officers doing the buy.

You do understand the concept of "undercover" and "sting" operations, right?




Umm, LE's who are trying to "sting" someone don't announce themselves as LE.

And according to the article, the LE didn't identify themselves until *after* the man confronted them. So I'll ask again, and maybe this time you won't dodge it

The vehicle pulls up. It flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The car is not marked as LE because they want to fool smugglers into thinking that they are there to pick up drugs

They get out, and start tracking your footprints.

Now, at this point, they're on your tail. They are going to find you if you don't move. If you do run, they have every right to shoot at you. When they command you to stop, do you listen to the people who might be traffickers pretending to be cops, or do you keep running and get shot at?

At some point, you're going to have to confront the police. What do you do?

And please stop with the "I'd send someone else" BS. That's a dodge.

Tell me what the procedure is if you, or anyone else, goes to see what's up? Do they obey the commands of people who may not be LE?

I told you before that if they were unmarked and didn't act like LE and didn't announce I'd haul ass. As far as them "having a right to shoot me" for running....where do you get that? If they opened fire then I'd be SURE they weren't cops. If they just kept tracking then it would be pretty safe to assume that they were LE.

Between you and me it sure seems like you're thinking is in that same conspiracy realm that Malley's seems to have been. When I said "highly improbable" I meant it. Like I said, the signs all point to Malley planning a rip off.

 

[sangha]

I told you before that if they were unmarked and didn't act like LE and didn't announce I'd haul ass. As far as them "having a right to shoot me" for running....where do you get that? If they opened fire then I'd be SURE they weren't cops. If they just kept tracking then it would be pretty safe to assume that they were LE.

The police are allowed to shoot at people who are fleeing. Your certainty about how to tell if they're LE is misplaced.

Tennessee v. Garner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Between you and me it sure seems like you're thinking is in that same conspiracy realm that Malley's seems to have been. When I said "highly improbable" I meant it. Like I said, the signs all point to Malley planning a rip off.

The only conspiracy I see is the one you're promoting. I've seen no evidence that Malley was planning a rip off.

So far, you've been arguing as if you were competent enough to be able to tell if those people were LE or not. So now that we've established that your methods of determining whether those people in the car are LE were flawed, will you now answer the question, or will you continue to dodge it?

The vehicle pulls up. It flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The car is not marked as LE because they want to fool smugglers into thinking that they are there to pick up drugs

They get out, and start tracking your footprints.

Now, at this point, they're on your tail. They are going to find you if you don't move. If you do run, they have every right to shoot at you. When they command you to stop, do you listen to the people who might be traffickers pretending to be cops, or do you keep running and get shot at?

At some point, you're going to have to confront the police. What do you do?

And please stop with the "I'd send someone else" BS. That's a dodge.

Tell me what the procedure is if you, or anyone else, goes to see what's up? Do they obey the commands of people who may not be LE?

 

[Lutherf]

The police are allowed to shoot at people who are fleeing. Your certainty about how to tell if they're LE is misplaced.

Tennessee v. Garner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




The only conspiracy I see is the one you're promoting. I've seen no evidence that Malley was planning a rip off.

So far, you've been arguing as if you were competent enough to be able to tell if those people were LE or not. So now that we've established that your methods of determining whether those people in the car are LE were flawed, will you now answer the question, or will you continue to dodge it?

The vehicle pulls up. It flashes its' headlights and honks its' horn. The car is not marked as LE because they want to fool smugglers into thinking that they are there to pick up drugs

They get out, and start tracking your footprints.

Now, at this point, they're on your tail. They are going to find you if you don't move. If you do run, they have every right to shoot at you. When they command you to stop, do you listen to the people who might be traffickers pretending to be cops, or do you keep running and get shot at?

At some point, you're going to have to confront the police. What do you do?

And please stop with the "I'd send someone else" BS. That's a dodge.

Tell me what the procedure is if you, or anyone else, goes to see what's up? Do they obey the commands of people who may not be LE?

Oh FFS....:doh

If I'm running away from the cop how the hell can I be an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death to those cops?

I'm sorry you don't like my answer. I know that you'd prefer "I'd open up with my super cool death ray and zap 'em all!!" or "I'd **** myself and start crying." but that's not the way it would work.

Look, the closest I have ever come to a situation like you're asking about is when I was in the service. I've posted it a few times now but the basics are that I was working a midnight shift. One of my checks was the firing range way out in the back of the base. As I was driving back from my check I noticed movement in the field to the north. I stopped the truck with the headlights pointed in that general direction and got out. About the time my feet hit the ground I realized that the movement was a guy with a rifle (all I had was a .38 revolver). I ran for the other side of the truck as he started yelling at me. When I turned back I saw that it wasn't just one guy but was more like 40 guys all with rifles. I called out to the guy that was closest (the one I saw first) and when he moved into the headlights I saw he was in uniform. I asked what was going on and he told me that they were a guard unit doing some training. I called in to the desk where Dave said something to the effect of "Oh yeah. Sorry, forgot to tell you". I walked over, shook the guys hand and went back to finish my checks and then "discuss" things with Dave. Since it's the only thing I have to go on I figure that I'd probably act in pretty much the same way in your scenario.

 

[sangha]

Oh FFS....:doh

If I'm running away from the cop how the hell can I be an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death to those cops?

The law doesn't require that the threat be "imminent".

A drug smuggler doesn't pose a "significant" threat to others? :roll:

I'm sorry you don't like my answer. I know that you'd prefer "I'd open up with my super cool death ray and zap 'em all!!" or "I'd **** myself and start crying." but that's not the way it would work.

Look, the closest I have ever come to a situation like you're asking about is when I was in the service. I've posted it a few times now but the basics are that I was working a midnight shift. One of my checks was the firing range way out in the back of the base. As I was driving back from my check I noticed movement in the field to the north. I stopped the truck with the headlights pointed in that general direction and got out. About the time my feet hit the ground I realized that the movement was a guy with a rifle (all I had was a .38 revolver). I ran for the other side of the truck as he started yelling at me. When I turned back I saw that it wasn't just one guy but was more like 40 guys all with rifles. I called out to the guy that was closest (the one I saw first) and when he moved into the headlights I saw he was in uniform. I asked what was going on and he told me that they were a guard unit doing some training. I called in to the desk where Dave said something to the effect of "Oh yeah. Sorry, forgot to tell you". I walked over, shook the guys hand and went back to finish my checks and then "discuss" things with Dave. Since it's the only thing I have to go on I figure that I'd probably act in pretty much the same way in your scenario.

It's not that I don't like your answer. It's that you haven't given one.

I find it a bit odd and disturbing that citizens would engage in (and defend) this sort of LE work while having no clue about what they would do in the sort of situation described in the OP.

 

[Gaius46]

Oh FFS....:doh

If I'm running away from the cop how the hell can I be an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death to those cops?

I'm sorry you don't like my answer. I know that you'd prefer "I'd open up with my super cool death ray and zap 'em all!!" or "I'd **** myself and start crying." but that's not the way it would work.

Look, the closest I have ever come to a situation like you're asking about is when I was in the service. I've posted it a few times now but the basics are that I was working a midnight shift. One of my checks was the firing range way out in the back of the base. As I was driving back from my check I noticed movement in the field to the north. I stopped the truck with the headlights pointed in that general direction and got out. About the time my feet hit the ground I realized that the movement was a guy with a rifle (all I had was a .38 revolver). I ran for the other side of the truck as he started yelling at me. When I turned back I saw that it wasn't just one guy but was more like 40 guys all with rifles. I called out to the guy that was closest (the one I saw first) and when he moved into the headlights I saw he was in uniform. I asked what was going on and he told me that they were a guard unit doing some training. I called in to the desk where Dave said something to the effect of "Oh yeah. Sorry, forgot to tell you". I walked over, shook the guys hand and went back to finish my checks and then "discuss" things with Dave. Since it's the only thing I have to go on I figure that I'd probably act in pretty much the same way in your scenario.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if you flee and the officer ascertains that you're armed he'd be justified to shoot under Garner.

 

[P. Kersey]

guntards
racist dicks
white racists
king of the white people
nutbars
useless twats
inbred hick
idiots

...but other than that you're completely unbiased.....

:yawn:

 

[Lutherf]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if you flee and the officer ascertains that you're armed he'd be justified to shoot under Garner.

*sigh*

Fine. Let's play this game.

I'll assume that the cops had drone imagery that showed I was armed before they showed up and pretended to be drug dealers and when I took off they started shooting. Well, at that point I'd shoot back because I would have no freaking idea that they were cops since the only way they announced themselves was with gunfire.

Or -

If they had the imagery and knew I was armed and played the drug dealer game and I approached then they said they were cops and then I took off running and then they started shooting (may I assume that they would be chasing me on foot at this point or is that going too far outside the parameters?) I'd keep right on running until I could get some cover. If they were still pursuing I'd probably start shooting because at that point it would be really unlikely that they were the cops they said they were.

Or -

I'll try this one more time......whatever the situation was that Malley got himself into is REALLY unusual and he did so many things wrong to get into that position that I can't give you a good answer to how I'd react in such a situation because I wouldn't do the things that he did!! Why is that so freaking hard to understand? We've had cops and various spotters all over this desert for the better part of a decade now and this is the first incident of this type I've heard of.

 

[Gaius46]

*sigh*

Fine. Let's play this game.

I'll assume that the cops had drone imagery that showed I was armed before they showed up and pretended to be drug dealers and when I took off they started shooting. Well, at that point I'd shoot back because I would have no freaking idea that they were cops since the only way they announced themselves was with gunfire.

Or -

If they had the imagery and knew I was armed and played the drug dealer game and I approached then they said they were cops and then I took off running and then they started shooting (may I assume that they would be chasing me on foot at this point or is that going too far outside the parameters?) I'd keep right on running until I could get some cover. If they were still pursuing I'd probably start shooting because at that point it would be really unlikely that they were the cops they said they were.

Or -

I'll try this one more time......whatever the situation was that Malley got himself into is REALLY unusual and he did so many things wrong to get into that position that I can't give you a good answer to how I'd react in such a situation because I wouldn't do the things that he did!! Why is that so freaking hard to understand? We've had cops and various spotters all over this desert for the better part of a decade now and this is the first incident of this type I've heard of.

I was simply pointing out that your contention that Garner doesn't apply may well be wrong.

In reality if the cops shoot first you may well not get a chance to shoot back. If you do and you hit one you're going to be in a world of hurt. If you don't wind up getting yourself killed, cops don't like it when their brethren get shot, you'll get arrested and face a long and expensive trial. Yeah you may get off if you can prove that you thought they were drug dealing killers but not until you've spent lots and lots of money and dealt with many sleepless nights.

In short it's a disaster as I stated in my initial post on this topic. Which brings us right back to the original point. Let the cops do their job.

 

[Lutherf]

I was simply pointing out that your contention that Garner doesn't apply may well be wrong.

In reality if the cops shoot first you may well not get a chance to shoot back. If you do and you hit one you're going to be in a world of hurt. If you don't wind up getting yourself killed, cops don't like it when their brethren get shot, you'll get arrested and face a long and expensive trial. Yeah you may get off if you can prove that you thought they were drug dealing killers but not until you've spent lots and lots of money and dealt with many sleepless nights.

In short it's a disaster as I stated in my initial post on this topic. Which brings us right back to the original point. Let the cops do their job.

The reason "it's a disaster" isn't that there are people out scouting for illegals and drug runners, it's that the idiot, Malley, put himself into a bad situation. Malley WAS NOT following the basic protocols that other groups follow and THAT is what prompted this particular situation.

 

[sangha]

The reason "it's a disaster" isn't that there are people out scouting for illegals and drug runners, it's that the idiot, Malley, put himself into a bad situation. Malley WAS NOT following the basic protocols that other groups follow and THAT is what prompted this particular situation.

Anyone who goes out there without a solid plan on how to deal with LEO's who are also out there is courting a disaster

From the sounds of it, it looks like you don't have any solid plan either other than "I'll send someone else out and hope he doesn't get killed or kill any LEO's"

 

[Lutherf]

Anyone who goes out there without a solid plan on how to deal with LEO's who are also out there is courting a disaster

From the sounds of it, it looks like you don't have any solid plan either other than "I'll send someone else out and hope he doesn't get killed or kill any LEO's"

It's not like you can have a checklist for this kind of stuff. As I've said, we plan as best we can by coordinating with CBP and keeping our activities to observation and reporting. When I have come in contact with law enforcement it's always been a case of waving hello and standing around shooting the breeze. Unlike Mr. Malley my goal is not to engage anyone unless there is some kind of medical emergency.

 

[sangha]

It's not like you can have a checklist for this kind of stuff. As I've said, we plan as best we can by coordinating with CBP and keeping our activities to observation and reporting. When I have come in contact with law enforcement it's always been a case of waving hello and standing around shooting the breeze. Unlike Mr. Malley my goal is not to engage anyone unless there is some kind of medical emergency.

Wasn't suggesting a detailed check list that accounts for every possibility. Just an general idea of how you would handle a situation like the one described in the OP.

Checking in with the CBP is a very responsible thing to do. But sometimes, people don't communicate with each other.

 

[American]

I am pretty sure good old boy joe doesn't want to start threatening his support base. The guntards and racist dicks of the minutemen are the guys who put him into power, and without them he won't be sherrif for much longer. The good old boy code is when you see people doing the wrong thing and they are white racists like you, you look the other way as a cop. Jope's testicles might have started to grow a bit to big for his britches and the good old boys will cut him down to size if he starts screwing with white people. Don't get me wrong, if joe wants to start thinking he is king of the white people he is certainly welcome to take on the nutbars of his race. I am perfectly fine with anything he wants to do that expedites his removal as sheriff or from this mortal coil. If he wants to send ex-action hero stephen segal into the fray i am quite ok with that also. Perhaps he could hire chuck norris too and we could get rid of many useless twats all at once. Chuck norris, so bad ass he was killed by some inbred hick with an assault rifle looking for mexicans. Oh please santa i have been especially good this year and not killed any idiots so could you please bring me that headline for christmas and make sure it is from an actual news source?

You need to calm the **** down on that, because as usually I doubt you know WTF you're talking about. Why don't you go get some knowledge and sources before showing us what you don't know?

 

[Lutherf]

Wasn't suggesting a detailed check list that accounts for every possibility. Just an general idea of how you would handle a situation like the one described in the OP.

Checking in with the CBP is a very responsible thing to do. But sometimes, people don't communicate with each other.

Right. That's the whole reason we aren't in the business of engaging people we don't have to engage.

While some "weekend warriors" might feel the need to run "patrols" that's generally just asking for trouble. We set the cameras and move along. On occasion we'll set out a physical OP but that's almost always on private property with the goal of discouraging trespassers.

For the most part this is what we're dealing with - Videos | AZ Border Defenders

 

[Gimmesometruth]

What you fail to realize is that a lot of the territory along the border is private property and keeping people who are prone to robbing you, messing up your fences and wells and trashing your property is NOT something you have to tolerate.

-edit-

I'll even go you one farther....every year we have several dozen people die out here trying to cross illegally. If, in being out there and spotting some of these people we can save a few lives then I figure that alone makes the effort worth it.

Yeah, that the ticket! Minutemen based RW orgs are all about saving undocumented alien lives.

Sure.

 

[SMTA]

Yeah, that the ticket! Minutemen based RW orgs are all about saving undocumented alien lives.

Sure.

Nice job of maintaining a calm demeanor when dealing with folks who are unable to calmly read and understand your logic.

 

[Paschendale]

Wow something I agree with Sheriff Joe about. You mean I shouldn't be trolling around the desert looking for drug smugglers? Oh....

What would this guy have done exactly if they were smugglers? Execute them? Conduct a citizen's arrest? what?

Seriously. I would have expected Arpaio to be in favor of militias and vigilantes. It's really strange to be agreeing with him about something. But either way, people shouldn't take the law into their own hands, especially not with lethal weapons.

 

[greengirl77]

The sheriff deserves a medal for not just triple-tapping the jackass on the spot. THIS is why we have trained professionals (albeit few) guarding the border.

Calling Joe a trained professional other than being the second biggest dickhead other than Donald Trump, is like saying I am a trained professional for the space program!

 

[Master PO]

i think some of you have no idea, whats goes on in the desert out here.

 

[ZapFinch42]

Calling Joe a trained professional other than being the second biggest dickhead other than Donald Trump, is like saying I am a trained professional for the space program!

Being from Arizona, I know Joe about 1000x better than you do. I was talking about the sheriff who was at the scene not jackass Joe. It will be a cold day in hell before that douche puts himself in the line of fire. There are a lot of great professionals who protect our border and to lump them all in with Joe is a complete insult. You have no idea what you are talking about or you just have no reading comprehension. So please never EVER accuse me of giving credit to Joe Arpaio.