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Are you sure there is no God ? [W: 352]

Are you sure there is no God ?


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William Rea

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You know, the more I learned in college the more things I found out I didn't know. But that doesn't mean I didn't learn a great deal.

You haven't done your homework on the subjects of Christ and the New Testament, and you profess to know about it - that it's bogus? That's an absolute farce to make that leap of logic.

You know what, I know very little about your Christ and your Bible, I just listen to what people like you say about it and how you act and I draw conclusions from that. You want me to believe in it? Come up with a better pitch than this.
 

calamity

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There is nothing to study. Without belief, the Christ story in the New Testament is just that; a story. It is just another god myth and I never studied mythology either and I don't need to. It is all the same. It is fiction.

Actually, once you do read mythology and get a broad overview of many other belief systems, it becomes very clear that the Jesus story is just another version of this or that with a mix of this and that. Nothing really unique about it except maybe that the sum total is bundled a little differently than the others. But, I'd be hard pressed to tell you anything that is in the Christ story that has not been covered elsewhere by others a thousand years earlier.
 

Logicman

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You know what, I know very little about your Christ and your Bible, I just listen to what people like you say about it and how you act and I draw conclusions from that. You want me to believe in it? Come up with a better pitch than this.

The model for Christianity is Jesus Christ. Everyone else is flawed. And if you ever do find a perfect church (which you won't), don't join it or you'll mess it up. :)
 

devildavid

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There's hundreds of research books to study. You might expand your horizons and walk into a library or Christian bookstore sometime just to see what's 'not there'.



You haven't done your homework.

There are no research books written by non-believers as to the validity of any religion. You probably haven't read every so-called research book written about every religion that has ever been. Religious belief is not about research, it is about belief. If you don't believe in the basis of religion in general, no book written to promote any religion has any great insight to offer. All religions are equally false in that they are all based on fictional stories. Let me know when you have thoroughly researched every religion on earth and come up with the one true faith after comparing them all.
 

Logicman

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There are no research books written by non-believers as to the validity of any religion. You probably haven't read every so-called research book written about every religion that has ever been. Religious belief is not about research, it is about belief. If you don't believe in the basis of religion in general, no book written to promote any religion has any great insight to offer. All religions are equally false in that they are all based on fictional stories. Let me know when you have thoroughly researched every religion on earth and come up with the one true faith after comparing them all.

Sorry, you have no credibility commenting on the veracity of Christianity. You haven't done your homework.
 

zyzygy

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Sorry, you have no credibility commenting on the veracity of Christianity. You haven't done your homework.

Have you nothing to say that is not an automatic gainsay? Please explain why you think that he has no credibility?
 

devildavid

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Sorry, you have no credibility commenting on the veracity of Christianity. You haven't done your homework.

And you have no credibilty commenting on any religion as you have only read things that you already agree with and ignored those that you don't. I dismiss all religion as having no basis in reality.
 

Logicman

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And you have no credibilty commenting on any religion as you have only read things that you already agree with and ignored those that you don't. I dismiss all religion as having no basis in reality.

I've studied it, you haven't. So you have zero knowledge on which to base your bias.
 

RAMOSS

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I've studied it, you haven't. So you have zero knowledge on which to base your bias.

If you studied, then, let's take an example of some of the books you have given links to on amazon, and let's analyze it, chapter by chapter, and indeed paragraph by paragraph to see who accurate and well written it is.

How about the book. 'I don't have the faith to be an atheist'. Are you up to the challenge to defend that work as being reasonable, rational and well written? If, i suspect, you have not actually read it, I suspect there will be an avoidance of that challenge.
 

devildavid

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I've studied it, you haven't. So you have zero knowledge on which to base your bias.

You haven't studied all religions, compared them, and made a choice. You are-disposed toward one and only read things that are apologetics for that particular belief. The books you recommend fall under that umbrella. They are written by those who have already made up their minds and are trying to convince others they are right. They are not actual open-minded research into all religions and their basis and validity.

I have decided on my own, independently, using logic and rational thinking, that the basis for all religions is false; that there is no god. I have done my homework already, and it doesn't require any research or reading. All the books you want people to read are written by those who want others to believe as they do. They are not objective accounts of god, they are apologetics for a specific belief system. Since I already figured out on my own that it is all based on a fiction, I am not going to waste my time "researching" what are in essence books of propaganda any more than you are going to do research on Baha'i.


Definition of apologetics

1: systematic argumentative discourse in defense (as of a doctrine)

2:a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity
 

Logicman

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You should study more Talmud.

I get into it now and then. But the Talmud isn't the Word of God per se. It's the opinions of various Jews and rabbis.

You should get into the New Testament more.
 

Sherman123

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I get into it now and then. But the Talmud isn't the Word of God per se. It's the opinions of various Jews and rabbis.

You should get into the New Testament more.

It is the Word of God as uttered to Moshe at Mount Sinai, the codification and distillation of that oral commitment. The Bible cannot be read accurately without it, it's like trying to understand the entire lecture with only the crib notes.

As for the New Testament I found it interesting, but think it is pagan at best, and heresy or apostasy at worse.
 

Logicman

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You haven't studied all religions, compared them, and made a choice. You are-disposed toward one and only read things that are apologetics for that particular belief. The books you recommend fall under that umbrella. They are written by those who have already made up their minds and are trying to convince others they are right. They are not actual open-minded research into all religions and their basis and validity.

I have decided on my own, independently, using logic and rational thinking, that the basis for all religions is false; that there is no god. I have done my homework already, and it doesn't require any research or reading. All the books you want people to read are written by those who want others to believe as they do. They are not objective accounts of god, they are apologetics for a specific belief system. Since I already figured out on my own that it is all based on a fiction, I am not going to waste my time "researching" what are in essence books of propaganda any more than you are going to do research on Baha'i.

Definition of apologetics

1: systematic argumentative discourse in defense (as of a doctrine)

2:a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity

Show me one other religious work apart from the Bible that has documented fulfilled prophecies at a rate far greater than chance?

"What are the odds that any man living from the day of these (Messianic) prophecies down to the present time? To get this answer, we divide our 10 to the 28th power by the total number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies. At the time this book was published we come up wit 88 billion people or 8.8 X 10 to the tenth power. To simplify it let’s round it off to 10 to the 11th power. The odds of any one man who lived from the the the prophecies were made until the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the seventeenth power. Can we visualize this with an illustration? Suppose we took an atheistic professor, blindfolded him and covered the state of Texas two feet deep with silver dollars. Then we put a check on one of those silver dollars and mixed them up. The odds of one person fulfilling just these eight prophecies would be the same as this atheistic professor selecting the silver dollar upon which we have placed a check, in his first try."

The Odds of Eight Messianic Prophecies Coming True | Berean Publishers

So don't miss the forest for the trees, david.
 

Logicman

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If you studied, then, let's take an example of some of the books you have given links to on amazon, and let's analyze it, chapter by chapter, and indeed paragraph by paragraph to see who accurate and well written it is.

How about the book. 'I don't have the faith to be an atheist'. Are you up to the challenge to defend that work as being reasonable, rational and well written? If, i suspect, you have not actually read it, I suspect there will be an avoidance of that challenge.

You've been given ample time and opportunities in numerous fora to try to falsify the resurrection. You've failed time and time again. So don't waste my time anymore with your half-baked challenges.

Christ is Risen.
 

RAMOSS

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You've been given ample time and opportunities in numerous fora to try to falsify the resurrection. You've failed time and time again. So don't waste my time anymore with your half-baked challenges.

Christ is Risen.

THis is the logical fallacy known as 'shifting the burden of proof'. As for the claims for the gospels, that is the claim to be confirmed, not the evidenec for the confirmation. I have, on numerous occations shown that out of billions of people who have live and died both before and after the alleged incident, there has not been on confirmed case of 'resurrection'. THerefore, that shows beyond any kind of reasonable doubt that the case of Jesus of Nazareth did not happen either. So, that's busted
 

devildavid

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Show me one other religious work apart from the Bible that has documented fulfilled prophecies at a rate far greater than chance?

"What are the odds that any man living from the day of these (Messianic) prophecies down to the present time? To get this answer, we divide our 10 to the 28th power by the total number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies. At the time this book was published we come up wit 88 billion people or 8.8 X 10 to the tenth power. To simplify it let’s round it off to 10 to the 11th power. The odds of any one man who lived from the the the prophecies were made until the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the seventeenth power. Can we visualize this with an illustration? Suppose we took an atheistic professor, blindfolded him and covered the state of Texas two feet deep with silver dollars. Then we put a check on one of those silver dollars and mixed them up. The odds of one person fulfilling just these eight prophecies would be the same as this atheistic professor selecting the silver dollar upon which we have placed a check, in his first try."

The Odds of Eight Messianic Prophecies Coming True | Berean Publishers

So don't miss the forest for the trees, david.

What fulfilled prophecies? There is no substance to this. Somebody wrote stories that used stuff from older stories. Only none of this actually happened. Its nothing but stories based upon stories based upon stories. There were no prophecies.
 

RAMOSS

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What fulfilled prophecies? There is no substance to this. Somebody wrote stories that used stuff from older stories. Only none of this actually happened. Its nothing but stories based upon stories based upon stories. There were no prophecies.

It's amazing how you accurate predict things after the fact, or write TO a prophecy (or making something into a prophecy that isn't0.. and get things right. The whole 'Odds' is just one big logical fallacy..
 

Logicman

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As for the New Testament I found it interesting, but think it is pagan at best, and heresy or apostasy at worse.

Let me ask you a question - considering the Israelites killed their own prophets (1 Kings 19:9-10 - And the word of the Lord came to him: “What are you doing here, Elijah?” He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too”), and considering they rebelled against Moses and others, why would you ever expect them to recognize, receive and obey their own Messiah when he comes?
 
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Logicman

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THis is the logical fallacy known as 'shifting the burden of proof'. As for the claims for the gospels, that is the claim to be confirmed, not the evidenec for the confirmation. I have, on numerous occations shown that out of billions of people who have live and died both before and after the alleged incident, there has not been on confirmed case of 'resurrection'. THerefore, that shows beyond any kind of reasonable doubt that the case of Jesus of Nazareth did not happen either. So, that's busted

Nonsense.

By your common practice of discarding or attempting to marginalize ALL historical references to Jesus, you unwittingly would have people believe in a massive and complicated conspiracy by mostly common, uneducated fishermen, etc., to advance a false narrative of Christ. Let's review who would probably have to be in this unwitting conspiracy of yours (or be labeled as liars, charlatans, etc.)

1. Most or all of the disciples, including early unbelievers such as James and Thomas. You would, in effect, be assigning acts of deception to these men in spite of there being no narrative or history of dishonesty on their part.

2. The women at the tomb. Their testimony that a resurrection never occurred is absent in history.

3. Luke, the physician and author of his Gospel. He wasn't a disciple. He wrote that he carefully investigated "everything" from the beginning. There's no evidence he just focused on the words and accounts of the apostles alone. What's more, he continues his narrative with the Book of Acts, with additional miracles and people (including Paul, a person hostile to Christianity) claiming to have had experiences with Christ. Plus, Paul's companions on the road to Damascus "heard the sound" of Paul's experience with Jesus.

4. Eusebius and Josephus and others in the links and posts previously provided had to be lying, mistaken, or in on the conspiracy to defraud the populace.

5. We need to add Paul to the conspiracy (or at least to the list of people who were defrauded), since he wrote of the resurrection of Jesus in his epistles. According to Luke, Paul had an experience with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

6. Let's also add in all the other eyewitnesses of miracles and/or authors of the New Testament, since they must also be liars, madmen, or charlatans.

I can probably dredge up some more, but the list of people who would have to be liars, charlatans, etc., is now too long (and unsupported by any actual evidence on your part) to be believable.

It's like trying to believe Slick Willie Clinton when the interviewer asked him, "Why would all these women be lying about you?"

Why would all those New Testament figures be lying, insane, or deluded, but you're right on the money? Sure, Ramoss.
 

Logicman

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What fulfilled prophecies? There is no substance to this. Somebody wrote stories that used stuff from older stories. Only none of this actually happened. Its nothing but stories based upon stories based upon stories. There were no prophecies.

Yada yada yada...

Sorry, you haven't done your homework.
 

Sherman123

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Let me ask you a question - considering the Israelites killed their own prophets (1 Kings 19:9-10 - And the word of the Lord came to him: “What are you doing here, Elijah?” He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too”), and considering they rebelled against Moses and others, why would you ever expect them to recognize, receive and obey their own Messiah when he comes?

Because we have clear signs that will be fulfilled. It will not be difficult to tell when the Moshiach comes, or when the Messianic Age has arrived.
 
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