Are you sure there is no God ? [W: 352]

[shagg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Do you not understand that a definition of what god is matters? Tell me why a being that could care less about our world in anyway should be considered a god? How are they different than an Alien life form like Q from Star Trek?

Forgive me, but I'm not a Trekkie and don't really know who Q is. My earlier reference was from 1 of the 2 ST movies I've seen. But I do understand that the definition is getting in the way of the discussion. So lets have at it. Do you consider all of the following gods: Zeus, Shiva, Odin, Osiris, and the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditional God? What of gods that never touch our reality (according to their respective religions), but instead reside in the afterlife/underworld and only deal with the dead/souls?

If Q had all the qualities of a God, why wouldn't it be a god? "Alien" imply's a life form from another planet (in this context). "God" we're still trying to pin down it seems, but is being a life form from another planet really a deal breaker there? You're definition of "Gods" is getting narrower and narrower. An alien, with the power to perform miracles, mold reality with its mind, and it takes an interest in us and hangs around earth making changes here and there, listening in on prayers and answering them sometimes. Not a god, because it's an alien? Not an alien, because it's a god?

If you could establish a cause and effect of some kind then sure. It would still be an effect. Just because I didn't notice it, doesn't mean it wouldn't be noticeable.

There in lies the rub. What if you can't? What if the god in question can tell when we can't, and only affects reality in ways it knows we won't be able to detect?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

My take:


IF what we humans call "the universe" is a creation (something we do not know for sure)...then whatever "created" it is a god.

If something else created that god...whatever created it also is a god.

IF what we humans call "the universe" was not actually created, but just always has been in some form or another, I have to at least consider the possibility that I am the only thing that actually exists...in which case...well...you know where that goes if "you" are out there.

If you are..."you" have to consider that same possibility.

Said in a shorter version: I do not know if gods exist or not...and I suspect nobody else does either.

 

[blarg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

thanks ...This is a question for atheists who agree that there is no God

only that theirs no all powerful one that i would deem unquestionably good

 

[shagg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Where did you hear that from?

It's a logical deduction. Should be no surprise coming from a skeptic like myself.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

My take:


IF what we humans call "the universe" is a creation (something we do not know for sure)...then whatever "created" it is a god.

So even if that's just some ****ty snot nosed kid playing Sim City on his computer? If those are your standards for a god why bother? Basically you're just failing Occam's Razor for nothing.

If this were the matrix you'd be referring to machines we ourselves created as your gods. If you'd like to have a real intellectual discussion about whether or not an actual god exists some time let me know. If not quite wasting our time with this middle school nonsense.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Do you consider all of the following gods: Zeus, Shiva, Odin, Osiris, and the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditional God?

Based on what I understand of them they all seem reasonably fitting.

What of gods that never touch our reality (according to their respective religions), but instead reside in the afterlife/underworld and only deal with the dead/souls?

You'd have to be more specific I guess. I don't think many people would consider the Grim Reaper a god. I'm not sure the Argus was really considered a God. I created a separate thread specifically for the discussion of how to define god. That would seem more fruitful.

If Q had all the qualities of a God, why wouldn't it be a god? .....An alien, with the power to perform miracles, mold reality with its mind, and it takes an interest in us and hangs around earth making changes here and there, listening in on prayers and answering them sometimes. Not a god, because it's an alien? Not an alien, because it's a god?

Q supposedly had all the powers and intelligence that would be befitting of a typical god, but he did not create man or the universe. He just liked to **** with people. Humans(and other alien races) were like his play things. His Moral compass was highly suspect. He enjoyed playing god from time to time, but nobody on the Enterprise would have ever worshiped him as one, and if they had he'd probably consider them pathetic and boring.

This is where in my definition thread I set the criteria of "having a stake" in our world. A god would have a certain sense of ownership over us, as if we were like his children.

 

[laska]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

My take:


IF what we humans call "the universe" is a creation (something we do not know for sure)...then whatever "created" it is a god.

If something else created that god...whatever created it also is a god.

IF what we humans call "the universe" was not actually created, but just always has been in some form or another, I have to at least consider the possibility that I am the only thing that actually exists...in which case...well...you know where that goes if "you" are out there.

If you are..."you" have to consider that same possibility.

Said in a shorter version: I do not know if gods exist or not...and I suspect nobody else does either.

Lots of people know. In the LDS Bible dictionary definition of God it explains: "God can be known only by revelation. He must be revealed or remain forever unknown (Mosiah 4:9). God first revealed Himself to Adam (Moses 5–6) and has repeatedly made Himself known by revelation to chosen patriarchs and prophets since that time. The present translation of John 1:18 and 1 Jn. 4:12 is misleading, for these say that no man has ever seen God. However, the scriptures state that there have been many who have seen Him. The JST corrects these items to show that no one has seen God except through faith and also that Jesus Christ is the only Way to God (JST John 1:19 [Appendix or John 1:18 note c]; JST 1 Jn. 4:12 [1 Jn. 4:12 note a]). God the Father and His Son have been manifested by voice, sight, or otherwise at various times, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16–17), the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–8), to Stephen (Acts 7:55–56), and to the Nephites (3 Ne. 11:7). The Father and the Son personally visited Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove in the spring of 1820 near Manchester, New York, in the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS—H 1:11–20)."

LDS primary song sums it up for me:

1.Whenever I hear the song of a bird
Or look at the blue, blue sky,
Whenever I feel the rain on my face
Or the wind as it rushes by,
Whenever I touch a velvet rose
Or walk by our lilac tree,
I'm glad that I live in this beautiful world
Heav'nly Father created for me.
2. He gave me my eyes that I might see
The color of butterfly wings.
He gave me my ears that I might hear
The magical sound of things.
He gave me my life, my mind, my heart:
I thank him rev'rently
For all his creations, of which I'm a part.
Yes, I know Heav'nly Father loves me.

 

[Howler63]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Yes. In the same way that I know there is no Superman, Santa Claus, and Bigfoot.

 

[blarg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Yes. In the same way that I know there is no Superman, Santa Claus, and Bigfoot.

hey we have an infinite number of big feet ( what is the proper plural of big foot? ) if the many words theory happens to pan out

not sure multiverse has to generate superman or or Santa though

 

[shagg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Based on what I understand of them they all seem reasonably fitting.


You'd have to be more specific I guess. I don't think many people would consider the Grim Reaper a god. I'm not sure the Argus was really considered a God. I created a separate thread specifically for the discussion of how to define god. That would seem more fruitful.



Q supposedly had all the powers and intelligence that would be befitting of a typical god, but he did not create man or the universe. He just liked to **** with people. Humans(and other alien races) were like his play things. His Moral compass was highly suspect. He enjoyed playing god from time to time, but nobody on the Enterprise would have ever worshiped him as one, and if they had he'd probably consider them pathetic and boring.

This is where in my definition thread I set the criteria of "having a stake" in our world. A god would have a certain sense of ownership over us, as if we were like his children.

I'll drag this over to your other thread then.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

It's a logical deduction. Should be no surprise coming from a skeptic like myself.

Logical deduction?

Lets look at what you asserted.

There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of an all powerful being who wishes to remain outside of human perception. Anyone who says otherwise is guessing or making baseless assumptions.

Your own statement is a baseless assumption. You have no clue if anyone can prove or disprove something that has not actually been defined. You are just guessing. You cannot prove or disprove whether humans could do it. You are making a assumption based on stuff that you have heard people make claims about.


You might as well said this: There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a cartoon character who wishes to remain outside of human perception. It isnt a logical deduction, it is more of a baseless assumption than anything. I mean you have absolutely zero information, but somehow you deduced something from zero information? As far as you know there is a easy way to prove or disprove the existence of an all powerful being who wishes to remain outside of human perception. If we are indeed being logical then; if a being wishes something it means that it cannot actually do it with 100% absolute success. If it could then it wouldnt wish anything it would just do it.

At any rate YOU CANNOT prove or disprove that us humans could not find a all powerful being who wished to remain hidden. You pretty much suck at being a skeptic. A skeptic would be skeptical that a all powerful being could exist. And why would such a thing exist? And why would it need to be hidden. No logical deduction tells me that there are no all powerful beings out there like what humans have imagined. You do realize that we are talking about something imagined right? Your own statement came from your imagination. I am pretty sure that you cannot produce a god (or whatever) or you wouldnt have needed the mental gymnastics to hide them (somewhere).

 

[shagg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Logical deduction?

Lets look at what you asserted.

Your own statement is a baseless assumption. You have no clue if anyone can prove or disprove something that has not actually been defined. You are just guessing. You cannot prove or disprove whether humans could do it. You are making a assumption based on stuff that you have heard people make claims about.

How can you prove or disprove the existence of something that can not be perceived? I didn't use the word "God", so I'm not bound by it's definition, or lack there of. I specifically stated "An all powerful being who wishes to remain outside of human perception". Apart from attempts at definition twisting that turn god (or the being I described) into a logical necessity, there can be no evidence for or against the being I described. And a lack of evidence is not, as they say....

You might as well said this: There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a cartoon character who wishes to remain outside of human perception. It isnt a logical deduction, it is more of a baseless assumption than anything. I mean you have absolutely zero information, but somehow you deduced something from zero information? As far as you know there is a easy way to prove or disprove the existence of an all powerful being who wishes to remain outside of human perception. If we are indeed being logical then; if a being wishes something it means that it cannot actually do it with 100% absolute success. If it could then it wouldnt wish anything it would just do it.

If you think about it, it's not a statement about god or supreme beings, but one of information. Regarding the being I described, we have zero information, and always will. How can something be proven or disproven if we have no information regarding it?

You're taking "wish" out of context. If it is the will of such a being to remain outside our perception, then we will never have any information, period. Which would lead to never being able to prove or disprove its existence without resorting to abstract logic coupled with distorted definitions.

At any rate YOU CANNOT prove or disprove that us humans could not find a all powerful being who wished to remain hidden. You pretty much suck at being a skeptic. A skeptic would be skeptical that a all powerful being could exist. And why would such a thing exist? And why would it need to be hidden. No logical deduction tells me that there are no all powerful beings out there like what humans have imagined. You do realize that we are talking about something imagined right? Your own statement came from your imagination.

I am skeptical that such a being exists. In fact, I think its unlikely in the extreme. But you can't prove it's impossible. A skeptic doesn't need to ask any of those questions. You don't rule out possibilities without sufficient proof. Unicorns might exist. There's nothing about them that's impossible. It doesn't matter if I imagined them up or not.

I am pretty sure that you cannot produce a god (or whatever) or you wouldnt have needed the mental gymnastics to hide them (somewhere).

I don't need anything, including mental gymnastics. Successfully prove to me god (or the being I described) doesn't exist, and I will point out your subtle assumptions. It would be the same if you proved it did exist.

I'll try to put into a formal premise-conclusion format


Assume a being exists which has the power to remain outside of human perception.

Such a being can not be perceived by humans, directly or indirectly

Therefore no evidence can ever exist of this beings existence

Without evidence, this beings existence can not be proven

Therefore humans will never prove this being exists.


Assume said being does not exist

Whether this being exists or not, no evidence will ever be available

Humans, either directly or indirectly, would not be able to tell the difference between a world with and a world without the being in question.

Therefore humans will never prove this being does not exist.

 

[spud_meister]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Why is that????

Explain that bit of "reasoning."

You don't live your life obeying the commands of all the gods that may possibly exist and punish you for not believing in them. So even though you may say gods could exist, you reject the existence of them out of hand with your actions. You're functionally atheist.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

How can you prove or disprove the existence of something that can not be perceived? I didn't use the word "God", so I'm not bound by it's definition, or lack there of. I specifically stated "An all powerful being who wishes to remain outside of human perception". Apart from attempts at definition twisting that turn god (or the being I described) into a logical necessity, there can be no evidence for or against the being I described. And a lack of evidence is not, as they say....

If something cannot be perceived then any discussion of it without proper data is just someones imagination. No one needs to prove or disprove some crap that someone made up or heard from someone else. What youve done is to make an excuse for the existence of gods. Does it help you sleep at night?

If you think about it, it's not a statement about god or supreme beings, but one of information. Regarding the being I described, we have zero information, and always will. How can something be proven or disproven if we have no information regarding it?

There is zero information so there really nothing to talk about.

You're taking "wish" out of context. If it is the will of such a being to remain outside our perception, then we will never have any information, period. Which would lead to never being able to prove or disprove its existence without resorting to abstract logic coupled with distorted definitions.

If you want be logical dont use words like "wishes".

Speaking of wishing: WTH are you going on about with no information to work from? So some people said there were gods (their gods specifically) let them bring them forward. Not make excuses why those gods cannot be found.

I am skeptical that such a being exists. In fact, I think its unlikely in the extreme. But you can't prove it's impossible. A skeptic doesn't need to ask any of those questions. You don't rule out possibilities without sufficient proof. Unicorns might exist. There's nothing about them that's impossible. It doesn't matter if I imagined them up or not.

I cant prove what is impossible? Are talking about all of those gods that people imagined? Well Ill tell you that they are imagined which makes them imagined not actually possible.

I don't need anything, including mental gymnastics. Successfully prove to me god (or the being I described) doesn't exist, and I will point out your subtle assumptions. It would be the same if you proved it did exist.

I'll try to put into a formal premise-conclusion format


Assume a being exists which has the power to remain outside of human perception.

Such a being can not be perceived by humans, directly or indirectly

Therefore no evidence can ever exist of this beings existence

Without evidence, this beings existence can not be proven

Therefore humans will never prove this being exists.

Let me get this straight: So this thing that has been imagined has a imagined attribute that dictates that you cannot perceive it? A question then; how do you know about it if it cannot be perceived?

Assume said being does not exist

Whether this being exists or not, no evidence will ever be available

Humans, either directly or indirectly, would not be able to tell the difference between a world with and a world without the being in question.

Therefore humans will never prove this being does not exist

If something cannot be perceived in any way shape or form by humans ever, no matter what, then wtf are you talking about? You have no clue because you have not perceived it. ANd if you have then your entire post was mental gymnastics.

DO you want to talk about other things that are impossible to perceive? Perhaps that it would be impossible to know that such a thing would be impossible to perceive?

 

[spud_meister]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

How can you prove or disprove the existence of something that can not be perceived? I didn't use the word "God", so I'm not bound by it's definition, or lack there of. I specifically stated "An all powerful being who wishes to remain outside of human perception". Apart from attempts at definition twisting that turn god (or the being I described) into a logical necessity, there can be no evidence for or against the being I described. And a lack of evidence is not, as they say....

You're using a definition so you can exclude the religiius aspects of gods, which then renders the argument pointless. A god, by nature, must affect our world. And it must be able to be percieved. An all-powerful being that remains outside of human perception is an alien, not a god.

 

[shagg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

1)If something cannot be perceived then any discussion of it without proper data is just someones imagination. No one needs to prove or disprove some crap that someone made up or heard from someone else. What youve done is to make an excuse for the existence of gods. Does it help you sleep at night?

There is zero information so there really nothing to talk about.

If you want be logical dont use words like "wishes".

2)Speaking of wishing: WTH are you going on about with no information to work from? So some people said there were gods (their gods specifically) let them bring them forward. Not make excuses why those gods cannot be found.
I cant prove what is impossible? Are talking about all of those gods that people imagined? Well Ill tell you that they are imagined which makes them imagined not actually possible.

3)Let me get this straight: So this thing that has been imagined has a imagined attribute that dictates that you cannot perceive it? A question then; how do you know about it if it cannot be perceived?


If something cannot be perceived in any way shape or form by humans ever, no matter what, then wtf are you talking about? You have no clue because you have not perceived it. ANd if you have then your entire post was mental gymnastics.

DO you want to talk about other things that are impossible to perceive? Perhaps that it would be impossible to know that such a thing would be impossible to perceive?

1) I'm not the one claiming gods do not exist. I'm pointing out the (remote) possibilities that being dismissed offhandedly, the reason why gnostic atheists will never prove their case. For having no evidence about anything, you sure seem willing to draw a very strong conclusion. Last I checked absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

2)Most gods I've learned of are not controlled by their followers, nor can the followers produce their god at will. I don't expect them to. I doubt their gods exist anyway. But you'll never prove you're case if absence of evidence is the crux of your argument. And you're suggesting gods are not possible because you think they're all imagined? One has nothing to do with the other. Even if we got past the fact that you thinking they're imagined is your unproven opinion and you somehow managed to prove they were imagined.

3)First, there's a difference between imperceptible and the ability to make ones self imperceptible when one wants to be. And yeah, I'm making it all up as I go. As a gnostic atheist, that is the challenge you face: disproving every conceivable being that qualifies as a god. And waving your hand a muttering "That's ridiculous" doesn't usually cut it in philosophy. I'll give you the cliff's notes: there's an infinite number of possible gods, define the term however you wish (within reason).

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

So even if that's just some ****ty snot nosed kid playing Sim City on his computer? If those are your standards for a god why bother? Basically you're just failing Occam's Razor for nothing.

Occam's Razor is one of the most useless pieces of philosophical trash ever devised.

IF this thing we humans call "the universe" is a creation...whatever created it is a god.

If you cannot live with that...fine with me.

I do not want to disturb your faith that there are no gods any more than I want to disturb the faith of people who have faith there is at least one.

If this were the matrix you'd be referring to machines we ourselves created as your gods. If you'd like to have a real intellectual discussion about whether or not an actual god exists some time let me know. If not quite wasting our time with this middle school nonsense.

If you do not want to "waste your time" hearing what I have to say...you have a way to deal with that.

But you don't get to tell me what I can think or post.

Okay?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

Yes. In the same way that I know there is no Superman, Santa Claus, and Bigfoot.

Thank you for sharing your blind guess about whether or not there are gods. I'll file it with the other blind guesses.

 

[shagg]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

You're using a definition so you can exclude the religiius aspects of gods, which then renders the argument pointless. A god, by nature, must affect our world. And it must be able to be percieved. An all-powerful being that remains outside of human perception is an alien, not a god.

I was shooting for an all-encompassing definition. Perhaps that was a mistake. But by your logic said alien could choose to be a god, and a god could decide to retire into alienhood. You're also saying "A god isn't a god unless it shows itself", which makes evidence a logical necessity for a gods existence, which translates into absence of evidence = evidence of absence.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

You don't live your life obeying the commands of all the gods that may possibly exist and punish you for not believing in them. So even though you may say gods could exist, you reject the existence of them out of hand with your actions. You're functionally atheist.

I most assuredly am NOT an atheist.

Just because there is a god...does not mean the god has "commands" for us. Why can't here be a god with no commands?

In any case, even if a god exists who has commands...I suggest he shove the commands!

This is my life...and I will live it without any god commands.

That does not make me an atheist.

 

[Deuce]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I can't conclusively say there aren't any deities but I definitely have no evidence to support their existence. Furthermore, I can conclusively say the one described in the Abrahamic faiths does not exist as described.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

1) I'm not the one claiming gods do not exist. I'm pointing out the (remote) possibilities that being dismissed offhandedly, the reason why gnostic atheists will never prove their case. For having no evidence about anything, you sure seem willing to draw a very strong conclusion. Last I checked absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Well then it is a good thing that I am not a gnostic atheist.

2)Most gods I've learned of are not controlled by their followers, nor can the followers produce their god at will. I don't expect them to. I doubt their gods exist anyway. But you'll never prove you're case if absence of evidence is the crux of your argument. And you're suggesting gods are not possible because you think they're all imagined? One has nothing to do with the other. Even if we got past the fact that you thinking they're imagined is your unproven opinion and you somehow managed to prove they were imagined.

I would suggest not trying to put words in my mouth. I have never asserted what you just said.

And you thinking that gods are possible is just your opinion: meaningless.

3)First, there's a difference between imperceptible and the ability to make ones self imperceptible when one wants to be. And yeah, I'm making it all up as I go. As a gnostic atheist, that is the challenge you face: disproving every conceivable being that qualifies as a god. And waving your hand a muttering "That's ridiculous" doesn't usually cut it in philosophy. I'll give you the cliff's notes: there's an infinite number of possible gods, define the term however you wish (within reason).

Hey if you want to assert that gods are not imagined then bring that case forward.

Obviously you have some kind of issue with gnostic atheists; perhaps you could go find one and have it out with them? In the mean time my actual position is that I am a ignostic atheist. It means that the question of the existence of God(s) is meaningless, of no value. Its like asking if any other imagined character exists. No one treats other fictional characters as if they could be possible somewhere in the universe. But when it comes to gods people insist that everyone must accept that they are possible somewhere maybe. They go on about you cannot find them so you cannot really know for sure.

The fact is that there isnt any evidence of gods. That alone doesnt prove that there are no gods. But with zero evidence of gods then all accounts of gods come from human imagination. And there is no way around that fact. Well unless you had evidence of gods. I know that you do not. No one does. All that we have is imaginations about these things we call gods. They are only stories. The only evidence in the case of gods is that humans created them to explain things that they dont understand. You seem to be ignoring the evidence and wnat me to convert over to believing that those imagined things are possible. You must think that I am a idiot to be convinced of something that extraordinary without any actual evidence.

 

[calamity]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

thanks ...This is a question for atheists who agree that there is no God

I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that there is no supreme being of some sort out there.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

thanks ...This is a question for atheists who agree that there is no God

No, i'm not sure.

Based on my observations, i consider the existence of a judeo/christian/muslim God to be unlikely.

I cannot rule it out- that would require a leap of faith. Indeed, Kierkegaard said it's not faith without the leap. If we had proof of God, it wouldn't be a religion, it'd just be another branch of science. Science and religion only intersect in our minds and souls (supposing they exist).

 

[spud_meister]

Re: Are you sure there is no God ?

I most assuredly am NOT an atheist.

Just because there is a god...does not mean the god has "commands" for us. Why can't here be a god with no commands?

In any case, even if a god exists who has commands...I suggest he shove the commands!

This is my life...and I will live it without any god commands.

That does not make me an atheist.

Here you are rejecting the existence of all know gods that do have commands for us. Tell me again how you're not an atheist. :lol: