Are white conservatives being hypocritical about "illegal" immigration?

[RetiredUSN]

The gop loves to harp about deporting "undocumented" "illegal aliens"

However, they completely ignore the fact that their ancestors, the Pilgrims and other white settlers, were also undocumented immigrants who had no visas or legal rights to settle in the New World

In fact, while modern undocumented aliens are often very hard workers and upstanding, law abiding citizens, the early white settlers did nothing but steal land which rightfully belonged to the Natives by force, and committed one of the worst genocides in history in the process.

I find the right wing view of "securing our borders" as pure and unbridled hypocrisy.

Just in case you didn't get the memo.....

There are blacks and Hispanics who also worry about immigration.

 

[Dibbler]

Avatar? You're arguing with his avatar?
No, listen. Just read the words. Discuss what's said.
Yeesh. Avatar?

bone headed left coaster you are.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

There was no formal process for anyone, anywhere in the world to immigrate anywhere.
It's a terrible comparison.
Undermines the arguments in favor of Hispanics.

Your talking about a totally different time where conquest was the norm where every nation was doing it, if you couldn't defend your lands they were taken from you, and don't think just because you live in the twenty first century it cannot happen again, it can and will, survival of the fittest will always win its human nature.

There were no laws against immigration when our ancestors got here. It was not illegal for them to come. Today there are. Anyone with half a clue could figure that out.
Socialism rots your brain, apparently.

I'm sure plenty of native-American tribes had laws against being systematically murdered and having their land and property stolen, yet that didn't stop us. We are a nation of immigrants and we always have been. It's kind of hard to take the moral high-ground when our ancestors paved over the local governments and peoples to implement our own, which you're now using as justification of what's morally right and wrong.

"It was morally just when we immigrated here, now anyone else who comes does so unjustly and illegally."

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I'm sure plenty of native-American tribes had laws against being systematically murdered and having their land and property stolen, yet that didn't stop us. We are a nation of immigrants and we always have been. It's kind of hard to take the moral high-ground when our ancestors paved over the local governments and peoples to implement our own.

Who is taking the moral high ground?
Speculating about what laws the Indians, may or may not have had, doesn't matter though.

It wasn't unusual at all, in the past for nations to invade other nations, take their land and do with as they wish.
Trying to make that directly attributable to modern times is well, rather retarded.

This norm knows no race, ethnicity or gender.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Who is taking the moral high ground?
Speculating about what laws the Indians, may or may not have had, doesn't matter though.

It wasn't unusual at all, in the past for nations to invade other nations, take their land and do with as they wish.
Trying to make that directly attributable to modern times is well, rather retarded.

This norm knows no race, ethnicity or gender.

I'm just pointing out that the justification you guys are using is highly arbitrary and subjective. "That happened a long time ago so it no longer applies." Just because it happened a long time ago doesn't mean it was just. We took this land with extreme violence and now people want to bust out the hyperbole when people simply come here peacefully. We've always been a nation that's welcomed immigrants, but in the past few decades xenophobia has reared its ugly head and we've forgotten what our core values were.

All I'm saying is it's silly to demonize peaceful immigrants when we took the land through bloodshed.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I'm just pointing out that the justification you guys are using is highly arbitrary and subjective. "That happened a long time ago so it no longer applies." Just because it happened a long time ago doesn't mean it was just. We took this land with extreme violence and now people want to bust out the hyperbole when people simply come here peacefully. We've always been a nation that's welcomed immigrants, but in the past few decades xenophobia has reared its ugly head and we've forgotten what our core values were.

It's silly to demonize peaceful immigrants when we took the land through bloodshed.

I never implied it was just.
I never said I didn't like Hispanics immigrating here and rather my belief is that, illegal Hispanic immigration is weirdly acceptable.
Legal open borders, which is a future but not possible modern ideal, is better.

At the same time, making idiotic arguments about "well they did it before" isn't a logical justification.

People wanting immigration law enforced /= xenophobia.
When someone makes such a claim, it's much easier to see your motive and it's predictable anti intellectualism.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I never implied it was just.
I never said I didn't like Hispanics immigrating here and rather my belief is that, illegal Hispanic immigration is weirdly acceptable.
Legal open borders, which is a future but not possible modern ideal, is better.

At the same time, making idiotic arguments about "well they did it before" isn't a logical justification.

People wanting immigration law enforced /= xenophobia.
When someone makes such a claim, it's much easier to see your motive and it's predictable anti intellectualism.

Your argument was that it's different because there was no formal process of immigration. The only difference is that what we did was much, much worse. We took land from other sovereign peoples. You're trying to justify it by pointing out that the locals weren't sophisticated enough to legislate against us.

It'd be like if I murdered you and took your family's home and land, then complained about your offspring illegally hanging out on MY land. How dare you set foot on MY land? It's MINE, I took it fair and square and I decide what's right or wrong. Whatever arbitrary laws we've since made are completely unrelated to the moral argument of immigration.

I think it's cute how you label any critique of what you say to be "anti-intellectualism". Is that what you consider your writing to be? The definitive work of intellectualism?

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Your argument was that it's different because there was no formal process of immigration. We took land from other sovereign peoples. It'd be like if I murdered you and took your family's home and land, then complained about your offspring illegally hanging out on my land. How dare you set foot on my land? It's mine, I took it fair and square and I decide what's right or wrong. Whatever arbitrary laws we've since made are completely unrelated to the moral argument of immigration.

In real the world, whether we like it or not, might makes right.
Does that mean just "rightness?"
Of course not, however, that is how it works.

I think it's cute how you label any critique of what you say to be "anti-intellectualism". Is that what you consider your writing to be? The definitive work of intellectualism?

I consider my thoughts and writings to be better than what you've wrote, at this point.

 

[joG]

Your argument was that it's different because there was no formal process of immigration. The only difference is that what we did was much, much worse. We took land from other sovereign peoples. You're trying to justify it by pointing out that the locals weren't sophisticated enough to legislate against us.

It'd be like if I murdered you and took your family's home and land, then complained about your offspring illegally hanging out on MY land. How dare you set foot on MY land? It's MINE, I took it fair and square and I decide what's right or wrong. Whatever arbitrary laws we've since made are completely unrelated to the moral argument of immigration.

I think it's cute how you label any critique of what you say to be "anti-intellectualism". Is that what you consider your writing to be? The definitive work of intellectualism?

I do not go with judging things well over a hundred years ago by our ethical code. A peoples' behavior can only really be compared to that of the other peoples' of their time and under similar circumstances and technological conditions.

 

[truthatallcost]

The gop loves to harp about deporting "undocumented" "illegal aliens"

However, they completely ignore the fact that their ancestors, the Pilgrims and other white settlers, were also undocumented immigrants who had no visas or legal rights to settle in the New World

In fact, while modern undocumented aliens are often very hard workers and upstanding, law abiding citizens, the early white settlers did nothing but steal land which rightfully belonged to the Natives by force, and committed one of the worst genocides in history in the process.

I find the right wing view of "securing our borders" as pure and unbridled hypocrisy.

Things were much better for you when you lived in China, eh guy? Hahaha.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

In real the world, whether we like it or not, might makes right.
Does that mean just "rightness?"
Of course not, however, that is how it works.

That really is pretty much the crux of your argument. "Might makes right. We seized this land by absolutely any means necessary and now we determine what's right or wrong." Simply because the people we stole the land from lacked the sophistication to write out on paper that stealing land is wrong doesn't justify what we did. We should keep immigration in a historical context and not pretend like its our god given right to have absolute control over this piece of earth we've arbitrarily defined.

I consider my thoughts and writings to be better than what you've wrote, at this point.

Congrats. I hope your self esteem eventually rises to the point where you don't have to tell that to every person you talk to on the internet.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

That really is pretty much the crux of your argument. "Might makes right. We seized this land by absolutely any means necessary and now we determine what's right or wrong." Simply because the people we stole the land from lacked the sophistication to write out on paper that stealing land is wrong doesn't justify what we did. We should keep immigration in a historical context and not pretend like its our god given right to have absolute control over this piece of earth we've arbitrarily defined.

So because bad was done then (ie Whites invaded native territory and took it.)
That we should allow others to do it to us, because of the past.
Which doesn't really make any sense as to a why anyone should do that.

Plus they didn't exactly steal all of the land to begin with, but that would kind of blow that narrative apart.

All I was saying was that two wrongs don't make a right.
But yea, in the real world where I no control over the actors of governments, it often just boils down to "might makes right."
That isn't an endorsement of the policy.

Congrats. I hope your self esteem eventually rises to the point where you don't have to tell that to every person you talk to on the internet.

Don't ask a question, if you don't want an answer.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

So because bad was done then (ie Whites invaded native territory and took it.)
That we should allow others to do it to us, because of the past.
Which doesn't really make any sense as to a why anyone should do that.

Plus they didn't exactly steal all of the land to begin with, but that would kind of blow that narrative apart.

All I was saying was that two wrongs don't make a right.
But yea, in the real world where I no control over the actors of governments, it often just boils down to "might makes right."
That isn't an endorsement of the policy.

Don't ask a question, if you don't want an answer.

Can you give an example of immigrants coming to America to murder us and steal our land? Why would we let these violent immigrants do such a thing to us? I don't think the nation that murdered the local inhabitants to take their land should be hyperbolizing about peaceful immigrants coming here to find jobs and opportunities.

 

[truthatallcost]

We seized this land by absolutely any means necessary and now we determine what's right or wrong." Simply because the people we stole the land from lacked the sophistication to write out on paper that stealing land is wrong doesn't justify what we did. We should keep immigration in a historical context and not pretend like its our god given right to have absolute control over this piece of earth we've arbitrarily defined.

Every race of people on earth with seafaring capabilities used them to try to take something that someone else had. That was the nature of things. While that went on, native American tribes warred with each other over land, possessions, etc.

I can't believe that people are still bemoaning the fact of how we came to be. The world was much more savage back then in general.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Every race of people on earth with seafaring capabilities used them to try to take something that someone else had. That was the nature of things. While that went on, native American tribes warred with each other over land, possessions, etc.

I can't believe that people are still bemoaning the fact of how we came to be. The world was much more savage back then in general.

Yes, it all happened so very long ago. And now that we have all this land, we're super enlightened and all national borders are permanently set until the end of time. The music stopped after we grabbed all the chairs.

In 2016 peaceful immigration is simply a fact of life. Arbitrarily deemed illegal or not, the flow of people through the world is going to be harder and harder to control and some of you are just going to have to accept that and stop demonizing immigrants as if we're somehow superior.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Can you give an example of immigrants coming to America to murder us and steal our land?

Why would I?
If you're totally taking out of context my statements to assume that I meant, "Hispanics are murdering and stealing our land" then you're sadly mistaken.
It's more about unchecked, illegal, undocumented, etc. immigration.

Why would we let anyone do something like that to us, right?

Of course we wouldn't.

Did you really take what I said here as an endorsement of letting immigrants murder us and take our land?

I never implied that you did.
Why are you even bringing this up though.

I'm not claiming that any immigrant is "murdering and stealing land."
The OP said, "they completely ignore the fact that their ancestors, the Pilgrims and other white settlers, were also undocumented immigrants who had no visas or legal rights to settle in the New World."

You're the one who brought up murder and stolen property.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Why would I?
If you're totally taking out of context my statements to assume that I meant, "Hispanics are murdering and stealing our land" then you're sadly mistaken.
It's more about unchecked, illegal, undocumented, etc. immigration.

Of course we wouldn't.

I never implied that you did.
Why are you even bringing this up though.

I'm not claiming that any immigrant is "murdering and stealing land."
The OP said, "they completely ignore the fact that their ancestors, the Pilgrims and other white settlers, were also undocumented immigrants who had no visas or legal rights to settle in the New World."

You're the one who brought up murder and stolen property.

You asked why we should let immigrants murder us and take our land in the previous post so I just thought you'd give an example of that. Feel free to backpedal all you want.

The OP's comparison is apt. We as Americans seem to feel like we have a god given right to this land until the end of time and all trespassers should be removed. We don't put it into the context that we took this land by force in the first place. The world is getting smaller and national borders are continuing to evaporate. It's going to continue to get harder to control the flow of people across borders and that's just something we're going to have to accept.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

You asked why we should let immigrants murder us and take our land in the previous post so I just thought you'd give an example of that. Feel free to backpedal all you want.

The OP's comparison is apt. We as Americans seem to feel like we have a god given right to this land until the end of time and all trespassers should be removed. We don't put it into the context that we took this land by force in the first place. The world is getting smaller and national borders are continuing to evaporate. It's going to continue to get harder to control the flow of people across borders and that's just something we're going to have to accept.

It's not apt, it's retarded for 4 major reasons.

1. No real legal precedent for passports, visa's, etc. during the time of the pilgrims and other colonials.

2. Even if there were a legal precedent, it doesn't matter, because nations generally don't ask other nations if they can "invade" them. (might makes right)

3. These "nations" they "invaded" were often migratory and did not always occupy the same lands, at the times of these "invasions."

4. If it was wrong for the pilgrims to "invade" why is it right for others to "invade" us?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

It's not apt, it's retarded for 4 major reasons.

1. No real legal precedent for passports, visa's, etc. during the time of the pilgrims and other colonials.

2. Even if there were a legal precedent, it doesn't matter, because nations generally don't ask other nations if they can "invade" them. (might makes right)

3. These "nations" they "invaded" were often migratory and did not always occupy the same lands, at the times of these "invasions."

4. If it was wrong for the pilgrims to "invade" why is it right for others to "invade" us?

I never said anything about "invading", I said it was wrong for us to murder the locals, take their land, then to pretend like peaceful immigration is some huge atrocity. Interesting to see that you think immigrants are "invading" America. That's some pretty strong language. Is there a Donald Trump rally you're missing right now?

If the native Americans had passports, visas, or immigration laws at the time would that have changed anything? With what moral high ground are we to demonize peaceful immigrants who aren't murdering us or taking our land? At the end of the day, the OP is right. Many Americans are hypocritical when it comes to immigration. If the shoe was on the other foot and they were desperate and wanted better opportunities for themselves and their families they wouldn't hesitate to break whatever arbitrary law the locals declared in order to look out for themselves and their loved ones.

It's so easy to talk about the rule of law when you're holding all the cards. We've never given two ****s about the laws of others when we want something, why should anyone else care about ours?

 

[Ahlevah]

What do you think of conservative hypocrisy over immigration?

I believe that it is offensive, disgusting, and racist

I don't mind it, and I will explain my reasoning in post down the page

I answered the bottom one, even though your question was one of those loaded "When did you stop beating your wife?" type of questions. (It assumes white conservatives are hypocrites, which you haven't established.)

Let me pose a question for you. Assume I spend quite some time, say, decades building a beautiful home and farm with my own effort and that of my family. It's not based on the design of a yurt or a teepee, but that of an English country manor, complete with dairy cows, gardens, and a vineyard. One day, a bunch of squatters show up and just decide to move in. I approach them and ask them to please knock on the front door first and request that they ask whether I'd mind if they stay. They basically tell me to **** off, at which point I throw them out. Am I a hypocrite?

A nation is not just the land people reside on. It's really people who share a common sense of values and purpose. It's the institutions they create that build their national "home," such as a judicial system and the rule of law and respect for private property. If it were land and resources only that mattered the nations of Sub Saharan Africa would be the most prosperous on the planet and people would be flocking to live there, but clearly that is not the case.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I never said anything about "invading", I said it was wrong for us to murder the locals, take their land, then to pretend like peaceful immigration is some huge atrocity. Interesting to see that you think immigrants are "invading" America. That's some pretty strong language. Is there a Donald Trump rally you're missing right now?

You don't understand quotation marks.
Yes I think I am missing a Trump rally.

If the native Americans had passports, visas, or immigration laws at the time would that have changed anything? With what moral high ground are we to demonize peaceful immigrants who aren't murdering us or taking our land? At the end of the day, the OP is right. Many Americans are hypocritical when it comes to immigration. If the shoe was on the other foot and they were desperate and wanted better opportunities for themselves and their families they wouldn't hesitate to break whatever arbitrary law the locals declared in order to look out for themselves.

The assumption was that the pilgrims violated the immigration laws of the AmerIndians.
I'm not taking any moral high ground.

To paraphrase Kissinger and add my own words, "Nations don't have friend or morals, only interests."
It's not necessarily in this nations best interest to have or accept open or illegal immigration.

I, personally, accept illegal immigration.

It's so easy to talk about "the rule of law" when you're holding all the cards.

Are we playing poker now?

You're really disappointing now.
Sounds like you went from right lib to SJW.
There's more than right or left.

 

[truthatallcost]

Yes, it all happened so very long ago. And now that we have all this land, we're super enlightened and all national borders are permanently set until the end of time. The music stopped after we grabbed all the chairs.

Of course not. The United States will be no different than every super power that came before it, such as Greece, Rome, Ottoman, British Empire, etc. It will fade within time. I'm in the group that would rather see it fade later rather than sooner. Whoever this OP is, obviously wishes to see it fade sooner, because he works at WalMart and has a chip on his shoulder that other people have fared better than he has.

In 2016 peaceful immigration is simply a fact of life. Arbitrarily deemed illegal or not, the flow of people through the world is going to be harder and harder to control and some of you are just going to have to accept that and stop demonizing immigrants as if we're somehow superior.

1. Illegal immigration laws are not arbitrary. The idea that rules exist for the betterment of society is not an arbitrary concept. Do we follow those rules? No. We've known for years that we have an illegal immigration problem, and haven't addressed it because business controls government, and business feels the exact same way that you do, which is that anybody should be able to enter the United States whenever they feel like it, or arbitrarily.

2. Does immigration bring only positives? Criticizing what's currently going on isn't about superiority. I could name several professions that used to pay well that now pay little more than minimum wage, because illegal immigrants have flooded the supply of labor. Being rightly pissed off about that isn't about feeling superior, its about being screwed over while your government looks the other way.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

You don't understand quotation marks.
Yes I think I am missing a Trump rally.



The assumption was that the pilgrims violated the immigration laws of the AmerIndians.
I'm not taking any moral high ground.

To paraphrase Kissinger and add my own words, "Nations don't have friend or morals, only interests."
It's not necessarily in this nations best interest to have or accept open or illegal immigration.

I, personally, accept illegal immigration.



Are we playing poker now?

You're really disappointing now.
Sounds like you went from right lib to SJW.
There's more than right or left.

So to summarize: When we have all the land and resources immigration is bad, when the others have it, it's manifest destiny.

And yes, over the years I've changed from right libertarian to left libertarian because I realized that land and resources are highly finite and are historically and often unjustly distributed. I don't really think that my great great great great ancestors taking land makes it mine and my offspring's until the end of time. Make no doubt about it, if the other guys had everything and the arbitrary group you found yourself born into didn't, you wouldn't give two ****s that they wrote down on paper that it's all theirs and you should **** off.

 

[Ahlevah]

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2006/nov/17/travelnews

The concept of customs, passports, and paperwork to immigrate has been around since ancient times.

When the Pilgrims showed up at Plymouth, did the Indians ask them to show their passports before they could disembark? I must have missed that lesson. :doh

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

So to summarize: When we have all the land and resources immigration is bad, when the others have it, it's manifest destiny.

Maybe if these people existed then and now, you could call them hypocrites.
But they didn't and like a lot of people, they often forgive their ancestors, as time goes on, because holding grudges and guilt for a long period of time sucks.
It's unhealthy.

And yes, over the years I've changed from right libertarian to left libertarian because I realized that land and resources are highly finite and are historically and often unjustly distributed. I don't really think that my great great great great ancestors taking land makes it mine and my offspring's until the end of time. Make no doubt about it, if the other guys had everything and the arbitrary group you found yourself born into didn't, you wouldn't give two ****s that they wrote down on paper that it's all theirs and you should **** off.

"Coulds," "shoulds" and "what ifs" aren't the here and now.
It certainly sucks for a lot of people, that we can't give everyone, everything they need to at least survive.
I wish we could and if we could, we should out of personal moral humanism.

That's not how nations or the world works.
It won't work that way now, nor at anytime in the near future, unless someone invents some kind of Star Trek replicator.
Assuming anything else at this point, is delusional.