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Are Europeans condescending towards Americans?

Leo

Leo

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At another place, there is this huge thread where Americans accuse the European members of being condescending towards Americans, and of incessantly criticising the USA.

Does anybody here consider that to be the case in general, and if so, why do they think Europeans hold those views?

For myself, I do not think that is the case, but I do see some Europeans reacting quite critically to American claims of being the best country in the world, saving Europe and Australia from speaking German/Japanese, and that sort of thing.

So is this a case of genuine European condescension and superiority complex, or simply a case of Europeans reacting to what they see as American arrogance?
 
Leo said:
So is this a case of genuine European condescension and superiority complex, or simply a case of Europeans reacting to what they see as American arrogance?
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I think it's the latter, since many Canadians criticize the US as well. If Americans are going to claim condescension on the part of Europeans, then it should be pointed out that Americans can be pretty condescending towards Europe as well.
 
Leo said:
At another place, there is this huge thread where Americans accuse the European members of being condescending towards Americans, and of incessantly criticising the USA.

Does anybody here consider that to be the case in general, and if so, why do they think Europeans hold those views?

For myself, I do not think that is the case, but I do see some Europeans reacting quite critically to American claims of being the best country in the world, saving Europe and Australia from speaking German/Japanese, and that sort of thing.

So is this a case of genuine European condescension and superiority complex, or simply a case of Europeans reacting to what they see as American arrogance?
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Both. Most are not exclusively arrogant to either europeans or americans. Some people are simply arrogant.
 
I wouldn't know, Im French. Im condescending towards every body. Do you want to practice your French?
 
Leo said:
At another place, there is this huge thread where Americans accuse the European members of being condescending towards Americans, and of incessantly criticising the USA.

Does anybody here consider that to be the case in general, and if so, why do they think Europeans hold those views?

For myself, I do not think that is the case, but I do see some Europeans reacting quite critically to American claims of being the best country in the world, saving Europe and Australia from speaking German/Japanese, and that sort of thing.

So is this a case of genuine European condescension and superiority complex, or simply a case of Europeans reacting to what they see as American arrogance?
Click to expand...


It isn't against American's. It is against some American's views and some of the actions of your Government and your administration.

My experience has been the other way round that some American's on political forums seem to believe they are the best by far no questioning about it. But that is only some. Others are critical where critique needs be.....so I think you are probably right that when it is believed Europeans have a superiority complex, they most likely are responding to American's who seem themselves to have one. ;)
 
I'm a member of a UK-based political debate forum and it seems to me that a lot of people just don't understand how our country works. They're getting conflicting signals of how our country functions and we, honestly, just make no freaking sense.

For one thing - 'Europe' isn't a country in itself, of course. So you have the culture and politics of France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy, so on - so forth.
Each country is different and mixed, just like each state in the US is mixed and varies widely.

There is no one particular view or thought that sums them up - in the same way that there isn't one view or thought that sums us up.

So, some people are condescending - but when you discuss why sometimes their views make sense. . . and sometimes their views are based on generalizations and a lack of understanding.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I'm a member of a UK-based political debate forum and it seems to me that a lot of people just don't understand how our country works. They're getting conflicting signals of how our country functions and we, honestly, just make no freaking sense.

For one thing - 'Europe' isn't a country in itself, of course. So you have the culture and politics of France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy, so on - so forth.
Each country is different and mixed, just like each state in the US is mixed and varies widely.

There is no one particular view or thought that sums them up - in the same way that there isn't one view or thought that sums us up.

So, some people are condescending - but when you discuss why sometimes their views make sense. . . and sometimes their views are based on generalizations and a lack of understanding.
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a very British response. ;)
 
What Auntie Spike is trying to say is that if you put one young gentleman from the South, with one young gentleman from the North East, with one young gentleman from the Great Lakes area, with one young Gentleman from the North West, with one young Gentleman from the West, with one young Gentleman from the Mid-West, with one young Gentleman from Texas, then you are going to have completely different people culturally.

Sometimes I don't understand the Texan dialect, even though I speak a relatively similar Southern.

When it comes to the actions and language of the people from the North-East they might as well be a ****ing alien.

Because of these differences our political machines run like the inversion of the currently FUBAR'ed Toyota Prius-- they go nowhere.
 
Arch Enemy said:
What Auntie Spike is trying to say is that if you put one young gentleman from the South, with one young gentleman from the North East, with one young gentleman from the Great Lakes area, with one young Gentleman from the North West, with one young Gentleman from the West, with one young Gentleman from the Mid-West, with one young Gentleman from Texas, then you are going to have completely different people culturally.

Sometimes I don't understand the Texan dialect, even though I speak a relatively similar Southern.

When it comes to the actions and language of the people from the North-East they might as well be a ****ing alien.

Because of these differences our political machines run like the inversion of the currently FUBAR'ed Toyota Prius-- they go nowhere.
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You're not far wrong.

As for European criticism of the US, it's sorta like this.

I'm a Southerner. If my Brother in Law calls me a redneck, I laugh it off. If some Johnny-come-lately Damnyankee calls me a redneck, he'd better be smiling like its a joke, or he's liable to spit out some teeth.

Or compare it to blacks calling other blacks n_____, but a white person had better not say it.

I am frequently critical of my government, and of certain groups and types of my fellow citizens. Sometimes I get sufficiently POed to flame them and throw words around like "cretinous fungi studying to be a moron."

I don't like it when "outsiders" do it, just like I don't like a yankee calling me a redneck, or a Texan calling me an "Easterner", or someone from Chicago telling me what's wrong with my hick home state.

It's an instinctive protective reaction, just like so many wives who call the cops on their drunk bum hubby... he's scum, yeah, but he is HER scum and nobody gets to beat on him but HER. :mrgreen:

Even so, as much I like to bash my country's government and complain about some of my fellow citizens, I love America and there's no place on Earth I'd rather live. Ultimately I believe in America and anyone who don't like it can *** ** ******* ***! :mrgreen:
 
Goshin said:
You're not far wrong.

As for European criticism of the US, it's sorta like this.

I'm a Southerner. If my Brother in Law calls me a redneck, I laugh it off. If some Johnny-come-lately Damnyankee calls me a redneck, he'd better be smiling like its a joke, or he's liable to spit out some teeth.

Or compare it to blacks calling other blacks n_____, but a white person had better not say it.

I am frequently critical of my government, and of certain groups and types of my fellow citizens. Sometimes I get sufficiently POed to flame them and throw words around like "cretinous fungi studying to be a moron."

I don't like it when "outsiders" do it, just like I don't like a yankee calling me a redneck, or a Texan calling me an "Easterner", or someone from Chicago telling me what's wrong with my hick home state.

It's an instinctive protective reaction, just like so many wives who call the cops on their drunk bum hubby... he's scum, yeah, but he is HER scum and nobody gets to beat on him but HER. :mrgreen:

Even so, as much I like to bash my country's government and complain about some of my fellow citizens, I love America and there's no place on Earth I'd rather live. Ultimately I believe in America and anyone who don't like it can *** ** ******* ***! :mrgreen:
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People don't call me a redneck because I don't have a Southern accent. I used to but I suppose I grew out of it.
 
But basically, I guess this is a chicken or the egg question. Do Europeans in general have a slightly superior attitude to Americans, making them subconsciously condescending as a consequence? Or do the claims of superiority made by a number of Americans prompt this condescension as a response? I could easily be wrong (it has happened before,) but I get the impression that it is the latter.

I base this impression upon the fact that I do not see threads started by Europeans with the subject matter being how awful American society is. I have not been here long enough to talk about this forum, but on other boards, I have seen a number of threads that foresee the end of European culture due to 'evil' things like socialism and 'Islamisation'. Europeans are consequently portrayed as weak and decadent, as well as being dependent upon the USA for their very existence (ref: WW2).
 
Leo said:
At another place, there is this huge thread where Americans accuse the European members of being condescending towards Americans, and of incessantly criticising the USA.

Does anybody here consider that to be the case in general, and if so, why do they think Europeans hold those views?
Click to expand...

yup. I think that Europeans hold these views because of a bit of an inferiority complex; they have to find a way that they are better than us and they have to prove it in order to feel better about themselves.

an excellent breakdown of how this manifests itself is in Robert Kagan's "Of Paradise and Power"; which i cannot recommend enough.
 
cpwill said:
yup. I think that Europeans hold these views because of a bit of an inferiority complex; they have to find a way that they are better than us and they have to prove it in order to feel better about themselves.

an excellent breakdown of how this manifests itself is in Robert Kagan's "Of Paradise and Power"; which i cannot recommend enough.
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To be fair though, it's not like many Americans aren't condescending to Europeans, or Canadians etc either.
 
Leo said:
But basically, I guess this is a chicken or the egg question. Do Europeans in general have a slightly superior attitude to Americans, making them subconsciously condescending as a consequence? Or do the claims of superiority made by a number of Americans prompt this condescension as a response? I could easily be wrong (it has happened before,) but I get the impression that it is the latter.

I base this impression upon the fact that I do not see threads started by Europeans with the subject matter being how awful American society is. I have not been here long enough to talk about this forum, but on other boards, I have seen a number of threads that foresee the end of European culture due to 'evil' things like socialism and 'Islamisation'. Europeans are consequently portrayed as weak and decadent, as well as being dependent upon the USA for their very existence (ref: WW2).
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A frank comment? Europe is a very old culture. America is still relatively young, and like the young we are confident, brash, and sometimes violent... but our relatively chaotic culture produces enormous advances in science and technology, and we are the ones who get things done. Maybe not always the right things, or the smart way, but we act where others typically do not.

European culture goes back to the Greek city-states and on to the Roman Empire, the middle ages, the wars with the Ottoman Empire and the Moors, the Hundred Years War, the Renaissance, the Colonial Era, and so on. Lotta history... couple thousand years worth. Possibly a little ego is excusable in that light.

However, there is more recent history, a bit less admirable. World War I, Versailles Treaty, the rise of the Nazis and Fascists, World War II and the Holocaust. A generation of Europeans saw their world all but destroyed around them and lost millions of lives. The effects of those wars cannot be minimized, I think... a certain cultural inclination to pacifism and distrust of "patriotism" certainly resulted.

Then there's the USA.... and the undeniable fact that it took America to stop Hitler, Musillini (sp?), and restore freedom to Europe, then it took 50 years of American protection to keep the USSR from rolling over Europe and making it their totalitarian playground. That has to be a bit of gall to the European soul, that it took these 'uncultured backward colonials' to save their bacon and keep it unfried for half a century. Then those same 'uncultured colonials' dared to go on to dominate the world, build a huge and powerful military, and put men on the moon. A certain amount of insecurity and resentment is understandable.

Perhaps a lot of it is cultural. Perhaps a lot of behavior and conversation that Europeans consider normal appears to be snobbish and condecending to Americans. Perhaps a lot of what Americans consider normal behavior seems rude and brash to Europeans. Americans more commonly value strength, assertiveness, bluntness, technological progress, and wealth, rather than history and sophistication, nuance and subtlety.

$0.02 FRN

G.
 
I have to disagree here with some of the comments made. While I agree that people in different parts of the States are culturally different, in the grand scheme we are almost identical (I've lived in nine different states for at least a year). Our differences seem magnified by the fact that most of us see so little of the rest of the world, so we have only each other to reflect upon. I might make analogies to language. To a speaker of English, Dutch is unintelligibly different, but they sit almost contiguous on the language-tree. Chinese, now that's rather different.

If anyone has an inferiority complex, it's Americans. It's a complex of long-standing. We've held up Europe as a cultural ideal for a long time. Americans of means have taken "the Grand Tour" since the 19th century. For a comical look at Americans gawking foolishly at European grandeur, see our greatest humorist, Mark Twain's Innocents Abroad.

Those who feel inferior often puff themselves up and act the bully.

On the other hand, European derision of American rustics is also a cultural trope of longstanding. Not long ago, two books were published in France on this very subject.
 
Yes - too true - the idea that their countries are vastly different than ours is a bit overreaching.

I started a poll some time ago about 'is racism wrong' - which mirrored a poll they had on their forum and almost the same percentage of people voted yes/no - a lot more people voted on this forum - but the % was close.

Over there, over here - our concerns are the same: economics, politics, religion.
Their government oversteps their bounds and sets rules and standards that they can't control and so does ours - and it pisses the people off.

We're a lot alike, honestly - so much alike that our differences seem merely lifestyle and menial things like coffee or tea.

One thing they don't understand is how our government works - we have more directly input into our government than most people over there do - yet our government still functions without our say-so. So they tend to believe that we support alot of our government's decisions - and they believe that if we by and large disagree with anything, we can do something about it - which isn't accurate.
 
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There are certainly those who fit the description. Just looking around this forum, though, I would say that it is an easy matter to find those who don't.

In general, though, we are the top dog in the world, so will receive extra scrutiny for that fact alone. Perhaps when the time comes when China takes over that mantle we will receive a bit of a reprieve.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
One thing they don't understand is how our government works - we have more directly input into our government than most people over there do
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I'm not sure what this means. You do know that every country in Europe is a parliamentary democracy, right? Or am I just misunderstanding you?
 
Goshin said:
Perhaps a lot of it is cultural. Perhaps a lot of behavior and conversation that Europeans consider normal appears to be snobbish and condecending to Americans. Perhaps a lot of what Americans consider normal behavior seems rude and brash to Europeans. Americans more commonly value strength, assertiveness, bluntness, technological progress, and wealth, rather than history and sophistication, nuance and subtlety.
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I think there is much wisdom in that paragraph. TBH, I have not noticed brashness or rudeness in American behaviour, quite the opposite in fact. The individuals I encountered were certainly quite polite, especially if they were serving you in some capacity. Waitresses, for example, called me 'honey' and went out of their way to be helpful (this is not always my experience in the UK). The only sticking point with me is the tendency for a small minority of Americans to be aggressively and unreasonably boastful about their position in the world.

You see my impression of the USA is the opposite of the popular American one. America, to me, is a triumph of human nature over a flawed and merciless system. I see little that is glorious, and much that is venal, in your societal systems, but I see much that is genuinely glorious in your people. They are cheerful, honest, decent, likeable, very hard working, and much to be admired. I think we Europeans could learn a great deal from Americans, if both sides could only overcome this reflexive trans-Atlantic divide. There is no reason whatsoever for either side to feel superior to each other, we are different but equal as societies, and we are all human individuals with all the glory and tragedy that implies. :2wave:
 
AgentM said:
To be fair though, it's not like many Americans aren't condescending to Europeans, or Canadians etc either.
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:mrgreen: it's not arrogance if it's true.





.....okay maybe a little :lol:....
 
Rassales said:
If anyone has an inferiority complex, it's Americans
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I believe that may be true but only amongst American liberals. I find that American liberals have some sort of odd, inexplicable fascination with European opinion. I don't really get it considering that Europe was responsible for the catastrophic failures of the first half of the twentieth century which resulted in tens of millions of deaths, total destruction of their continent and the virtual enslavement in the east by the communists.

With the exception of Great Britain, who is and remains America's true friend and ally, the rest of Europe has done virtually zilch to bring about a better world. Now, I understand that many don't like to hear this but it is true. Europe and much of the free world has benefited from the protection of the sea lanes (oil & trade) by the US Navy and our nuclear deterrent. It isn't arrogance; it's just the simple truth.

Now, we've made mistakes and sometimes some of our people weren't always ethical. However, our list of wrongs pales in comparison to what the Europeans did over many centuries. It doesn't make it right. But one should keep these facts in mind before placing the Europeans on the proverbial pedestal or before crucifying the US. I'm ok with criticism of a particular policy, but I don't like the broad generalizations that the "Americans are war mongers", etc. Those are usually levied by people that have an ignorant, unjustified hatred for the US.

On a funny note, I saw a t-shirt that said (something like this): "What part of Europe are you from, the part whose ass we kicked or the part we saved"? :lol:
 
OrlandoGringo said:
I believe that may be true but only amongst American liberals. I find that American liberals have some sort of odd, inexplicable fascination with European opinion. I don't really get it considering that Europe was responsible for the catastrophic failures of the first half of the twentieth century which resulted in tens of millions of deaths, total destruction of their continent and the virtual enslavement in the east by the communists.

With the exception of Great Britain, who is and remains America's true friend and ally, the rest of Europe has done virtually zilch to bring about a better world. Now, I understand that many don't like to hear this but it is true. Europe and much of the free world has benefited from the protection of the sea lanes (oil & trade) by the US Navy and our nuclear deterrent. It isn't arrogance; it's just the simple truth.

Now, we've made mistakes and sometimes some of our people weren't always ethical. However, our list of wrongs pales in comparison to what the Europeans did over many centuries. It doesn't make it right. But one should keep these facts in mind before placing the Europeans on the proverbial pedestal or before crucifying the US. I'm ok with criticism of a particular policy, but I don't like the broad generalizations that the "Americans are war mongers", etc. Those are usually levied by people that have an ignorant, unjustified hatred for the US.

On a funny note, I saw a t-shirt that said (something like this): "What part of Europe are you from, the part whose ass we kicked or the part we saved"? :lol:
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But it's just that kind of stupid joke-making that suggests a sense of inferiority. People don't make jokes like that about people they think of as their equals. That ultra-virile attitude is just the sort of behavior exhibited by those with chips on their shoulders.

I'm not lauding Europeans, who have their own foibles (and really, any criticism of Europeans vary by nation and even region). But American's really are less capable of self-criticism and and conservatives particularly have difficulty seeing the US as anything other than a messiah among nations. THAT'S condescending.
 
Well, Rassales, the Europeans can thank the US for protecting them for more than half a century and for protecting the vital trade routes that protect their economies from collapse. The Europeans are in no way, shape or form militarily able to project power and protect these strategic passageways as we do now.

I would much prefer that they get off their asses and open their wallets and start doing and paying their fair share, something they haven't done since they were killing one another by the tens of millions back in the 1940's. As a fellow liberterian I would prefer that the US step back from some of our foreign commitments and let the European slackers get their hands dirty - for a change.
 
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