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Are Displays of the 10 Commandments in Public Buildings...

A display of the 10 comandments does not establish a national religion, aka Church of England.

A display of the 10 comandments does not give any church munisipal authority.

Therefore, a display of the 10 comandments does not violate the 1st.

Banning public displays, however, does violate the 1st.




Again, I don't think the 1st can be read as narrowly as the actual, statutory enactment of a "state religion." Note the Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Not just "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion." Now we can quibble over what the Founders meant by "respecting," but IMO, the 1st was not meant only to prevent the establishment of a national religion. It was meant to keep religion out of the public sphere. The understanding that the SC has had for most of the last 50 years.

In terms of the wider discussion, I think I could get behind a display of the tablets, as long as the text wasn't included. Which I believe is the case at the SC building in DC. I also think it's important to include other sources of Western law, i.e. Code of Hammurabi, maybe a bust of Blackstone. This would indeed make them akin to the crosses at Arlington, etc. Again, those have a wider meaning beyond their association with Christianity, whereas the text of the 10 Commandments is really very specific and exclusionary.
 
But even it this were true, it's at the state level not the federal level. Congress has not made any law that I'm aware of that establishes a "national" religion. Therefore, I don't see how displaying the 10 Commandments can be viewed as violating the 1st Amendment. The states, however, may have their own laws against such.

That's what I mean by "incorporated," the Bill of Rights applies to the states as much as it applies to the federal government. If it didn't, then what would be the point? The states could pass any crazy law they wanted. The US Constitution is meant to be a baseline, not the apex of what's permissable. States may interpret their constitutions more broadly than the USSC, but not more narrowly. The vast majority of cases litigated at the SC level come from state laws, not those passed by Congress.
 
I honestly don't see why we waste so much time on these kind of issues when there are bigger fish to fry.

When everything else important gets handled, then we should go with the trivial things like this.

Which is why we're talking about it on DP :-)
 
As to point 1, I somewhat agree. Where I agree is the public funds shouldn't be allowed to be used however if there is a private fund used of some kind it should not be disallowed by law and the donor should be made quite clear so there is no perception of impropriety.
to point 2, we'll probably never agree on the line. I think communities should have the option to decide, but not the power to do so through simple legislation alone, maybe let the public vote on it after a bill is passed and both would be required.....something like that.

Hmm. I think that's getting into some dangerous territory, though. The whole point of the Bill of Rights is that the majority cannot violate certain rights. I see your point about deciding on the local level, though. I'm just not sure how much wiggle room there is to accomodate local differences (but then again, neither is the SC).
 
Again, I don't think the 1st can be read as narrowly as the actual, statutory enactment of a "state religion." Note the Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Not just "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion." Now we can quibble over what the Founders meant by "respecting," but IMO, the 1st was not meant only to prevent the establishment of a national religion. It was meant to keep religion out of the public sphere. The understanding that the SC has had for most of the last 50 years.

In terms of the wider discussion, I think I could get behind a display of the tablets, as long as the text wasn't included. Which I believe is the case at the SC building in DC. I also think it's important to include other sources of Western law, i.e. Code of Hammurabi, maybe a bust of Blackstone. This would indeed make them akin to the crosses at Arlington, etc. Again, those have a wider meaning beyond their association with Christianity, whereas the text of the 10 Commandments is really very specific and exclusionary.


So...

You wish to broadly construe that portion of the 1st Amendment that says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

...and at the same time very narrowly construe the following phrase, "...nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Clever. Wrong and perhaps dishonest, but clever.
 
So...

You wish to broadly construe that portion of the 1st Amendment that says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

...and at the same time very narrowly construe the following phrase, "...nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Clever. Wrong and perhaps dishonest, but clever.

Hahaha! Well, I try...

But in seriousness, how do you see me narrowly construing the Free Exercise Clause?
 
Again, I don't think the 1st can be read as narrowly as the actual, statutory enactment of a "state religion." Note the Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Not just "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion." Now we can quibble over what the Founders meant by "respecting," but IMO, the 1st was not meant only to prevent the establishment of a national religion. It was meant to keep religion out of the public sphere. The understanding that the SC has had for most of the last 50 years.

In terms of the wider discussion, I think I could get behind a display of the tablets, as long as the text wasn't included. Which I believe is the case at the SC building in DC. I also think it's important to include other sources of Western law, i.e. Code of Hammurabi, maybe a bust of Blackstone. This would indeed make them akin to the crosses at Arlington, etc. Again, those have a wider meaning beyond their association with Christianity, whereas the text of the 10 Commandments is really very specific and exclusionary.

I have a hard time giving folks like yourself even the time of day when it comes to interpreting Amendments because what is so hard to understand about "shall not be infringed"?

I have to assume that anything you folks do serves only to disolve personal rights and freedoms.
 
Hahaha! Well, I try...

But in seriousness, how do you see me narrowly construing the Free Exercise Clause?

Because if you were strictly construing it, you'd realize that a simple public display that is acceptible to the vast majority of the community harms no one, and absent harm there is no reason for gov't to intervene.
 
I have a hard time giving folks like yourself even the time of day when it comes to interpreting Amendments because what is so hard to understand about "shall not be infringed"?

I have to assume that anything you folks do serves only to disolve personal rights and freedoms.

Where in the Establishment Clause do you see the words "shall not be infringed"?
 
Because if you were strictly construing it, you'd realize that a simple public display that is acceptible to the vast majority of the community harms no one, and absent harm there is no reason for gov't to intervene.

This isn't about the gov't intervening, it's about the gov't actively encouraging one view of religion over another, or over no religion. No one is saying that the 10 commandments can't be displayed anywhere. We're saying it shouldn't be done in gov't-owned buildings, at taxpayer expense.
 
Hmm. I think that's getting into some dangerous territory, though. The whole point of the Bill of Rights is that the majority cannot violate certain rights. I see your point about deciding on the local level, though. I'm just not sure how much wiggle room there is to accomodate local differences (but then again, neither is the SC).
The minority isn't being violated by a simple display of anything. If someone doesn't like it they have the right to redress of grievances, but that's about it.
 
The minority isn't being violated by a simple display of anything. If someone doesn't like it they have the right to redress of grievances, but that's about it.

I think this gets at a really important point. Ultimately, you can say, "it's no big deal, no one's being hurt by the display, etc., so why not just let some state courts put up the 10 commandments if they want to," while I can ultimately make the same argument by saying, yeah, it's no big deal, so why is it so important to put up the display in the first place?

Now, you can say, well the majority want it, so it should be OK, to which I resort to my initial point about the constitution's role as protection against the tyranny of the majority. So in the end, the argument comes down to whether or not displaying the 10 commandments violates the rights of a minority. I would suggest that it does, by sending the message that those of non-judeo-christian faiths and non-believers are, at least indirectly, less a part of the community than those who are. Since a courthouse can theoretically be decorated in any number of ways, the fact that the 10 commandments was chosen sends that very message. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, only 3 of the 10 are even included in any laws currently on the books, so there is clearly a message being sent there beyond the commandments as a source of western law.
 
This is the best I could find with my limited time tonight. Apparently blue laws are constitutional with justification, but New York, Conneticut, and Canada have found them to be unconstitutional within their jurisdictions. As well many have indeed been abandoned, but I think there are still holdouts.
Blue Laws legal definition of Blue Laws. Blue Laws synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Wow. So, the blue laws made it into the 21st. century. Unbelievable.
 
This isn't about the gov't intervening, it's about the gov't actively encouraging one view of religion over another, or over no religion. No one is saying that the 10 commandments can't be displayed anywhere. We're saying it shouldn't be done in gov't-owned buildings, at taxpayer expense.

and if the display was privately donated and no taxpayer dollars were involved, but it was displayed in the lobby of a courthouse?
 
and if the display was privately donated and no taxpayer dollars were involved, but it was displayed in the lobby of a courthouse?

Better, but still not comfortable with the use of a public building. I mean, if I wanted to buy the flag pole in front of a courthouse in Alabama and fly the Saudi Arabian flag, should I be allowed to do that?
 
Better, but still not comfortable with the use of a public building. I mean, if I wanted to buy the flag pole in front of a courthouse in Alabama and fly the Saudi Arabian flag, should I be allowed to do that?

So you wish to always favor "no establishment of religion", as opposed to "free expression thereof", even when no religion is being established and almost everyone is cool with it. Got it.
 
Incidentally, the proper understanding of "respecting" in the phrase "respecting an establishment of religion" means "relating to". As in, Congress shall make no law relating to the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The original purpose was to prevent any particular version of Christianity from being established as the state religion, and to keep government's hands off of religion and prevent any efforts to suppress any particular one.

Having a display of some religious symbol that is popular in the community hardly constitutes the establishment of a state religion.
 
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Incidentally, the proper understanding of "respecting" in the phrase "respecting an establishment of religion" means "relating to". As in, Congress shall make no law relating to the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The original purpose was to prevent any particular version of Christianity from being established as the state religion, and to keep government's hands off of religion and prevent any efforts to suppress any particular one.

Having a display of some religious symbol that is popular in the community hardly constitutes the establishment of a state religion.

"Any particular version of Christianity???" I guess if you get your history from David Barton, then sure. Actual historians might have another take on that...
 
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So you wish to always favor "no establishment of religion", as opposed to "free expression thereof", even when no religion is being established and almost everyone is cool with it. Got it.

No... The Free Expression Clause does not give one religion, or any religion, the right to be represented in the public sphere. It ensures that the gov't can't tell anyone what religion they ought to practice. It can't favor one religion over the other. By saying you can't put up a 10 commandments display in a courthouse, no one is saying you can't believe in the 10 commandments, or put up monuments to them in your house, your church, your bowling alley, whatever. Just not in a public building that, in theory, is owned by the entire community.

This would seem to me to be the preferred "conservative" position. It says, no, the gov't shouldn't be involved in religion one way or the other. Whatever people want to do in the private sphere is fine, but the gov't shouldn't be in the business of religion at all.
 
Where in the Establishment Clause do you see the words "shall not be infringed"?

Context please:

I have a hard time giving folks like yourself even the time of day when it comes to interpreting Amendments because what is so hard to understand about "shall not be infringed"?

I have to assume that anything you folks do serves only to dissolve personal rights and freedoms.

Don't assume my comment was limited to the 1st. I don't trust how you folks interpret any amendment, or precedent for that matter, as your ends often dissolve personal freedoms and liberties.
 
Context please:

Don't ask me, you're the one that brought the phrase up.

Don't assume my comment was limited to the 1st. I don't trust how you folks interpret any amendment, or precedent for that matter, as your ends often dissolve personal freedoms and liberties.

Can you provide some examples of liberal SC decisions that eroded personal liberty or freedoms (I'm assuming "you folks" means liberal. A label I'm happy to adopt, I just want to make sure we're speaking the same language).
 
Don't ask me

I wasn't asking you. There was no question mark present.

Can you provide some examples of liberal SC decisions that eroded personal liberty or freedoms (I'm assuming "you folks" means liberal. A label I'm happy to adopt, I just want to make sure we're speaking the same language).

Off the cuff I can point to Chicago and other Liberal towns where they favor strict gun control, and all these 5-4 SCOTUS rulings coming down along liberal/conservative lines.
 
I think this gets at a really important point. Ultimately, you can say, "it's no big deal, no one's being hurt by the display, etc., so why not just let some state courts put up the 10 commandments if they want to," while I can ultimately make the same argument by saying, yeah, it's no big deal, so why is it so important to put up the display in the first place?

Now, you can say, well the majority want it, so it should be OK, to which I resort to my initial point about the constitution's role as protection against the tyranny of the majority. So in the end, the argument comes down to whether or not displaying the 10 commandments violates the rights of a minority. I would suggest that it does, by sending the message that those of non-judeo-christian faiths and non-believers are, at least indirectly, less a part of the community than those who are. Since a courthouse can theoretically be decorated in any number of ways, the fact that the 10 commandments was chosen sends that very message. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, only 3 of the 10 are even included in any laws currently on the books, so there is clearly a message being sent there beyond the commandments as a source of western law.
I've made this argument in the past. We have a right to religion, we have a right not to be forced into a state religion, but we don't have a right from seeing religion. Same as the right to expression, it doesn't protect from offense. What I'm getting at is that the minority is not having their rights violated by a simple display of the majority's symbolism but would be if and only if they were forced into the religion through law.
 
So you wish to always favor "no establishment of religion", as opposed to "free expression thereof", even when no religion is being established and almost everyone is cool with it. Got it.

Restricting government buildings from displaying religious symbols in no way violates the free expression portion of the first amendment. Anyone within that region is still 100% free to express their religion.

Free expression of religion relates to the individual being allowed to express their religion. It doesn't mean that the government should give them the location upon which to do it. They are not entitled to use public resources to express their religion.

That's a simple fact. Just because someone has a right to something in no way means that the governemnt should provide it for them. Preventing government buildings from having the 10 commandments is in no way, shape, or form a violation of anyone's religious freedom. nobody is impeded form expressing their religion simply because they are not able to put their symbols in front of a courthouse. Nobody.

That's just a simple fact. Every person in the community is still rightfully allowed to display their symbols on their own property, in their homes, in their places of worship, on privately owned billboards overlooking the highway, etc.

A right to free expression does not include the government being required to provide the means to free expression.



That being said, I would also point out that having a display of the ten commandments on public property is not, automatically, a violation of the concept of "no establishment of religion".

As was pointed out, the SCOTUS has visual representation of the 10 commandments. Here is an example of what can be found there:

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Of course, these are not verbatim representations, but instead are "tablets" marked with Roman numerals. They are honoring the concept of codified laws.

This is vastly different from a verbatim representation of the 10 commandments.

One of the reasons for this is the difference between verbatim portrayals of the 10 commandments between the various faiths that follow them. Catholics have a different set of 10 commandments than the protestants do. Both of these Christian versions differ from the Jewish and Islamic variations.

Depending on which verbatim version is used, there is the potential for "establishing a religion". It would depend on the rationale for the choice to display the commandments and the rationale for the version used.

Typically in the US, the verbatim version that shows up at the courthouses is the protestant version. Typically the King James variation, to be exact. This variation of the bible is actually rejected by Roman Catholics (as the Roman Catholic versions of the bible are typically rejected by Protestants).

This is where it gets sketchy, IMO. If the representation were generic, like they are in the SCOTUS, there is no real issue. There's no way to argue that it acts towards establishing a religion, because there is nothing in it that could be viewed as exclusionary towards different faiths (as well as sects of various faiths) that also follow the 10 commandments.

The generic representation works to honor the codification of laws without running any risk of bordering "establishment".

Thus, I will argue that any verbatim representation of the 10 commandments is present for some other motive than honoring a historical codification of laws. Typically, the motive for choosing a specific faith's variation of the 10 commandments is to promote that faith's morality.

A Catholic is not going to use the KJV's version of the 10 commandments in a display on their lawn anymore than a Baptist would use the version found in the Quran.

If the are going to display any version, it will be their own version. This is because they don't want to promote some other religion, they want to promote their own religion.

So, IMO, its clear that verbatim representations are always acting to "establish" some specific faith (or sect of a faith, unless of course, all verbatim variations are displayed on equal footing) to at least some degree.

This is hard to argue against because the choice to display a verbatim representation is going further than necessary in order to honor the codification of laws, and the choice of which variation is used is always decided by the religious beliefs of the person(s) making the choice. If one felt a verbatim version had to be used to truly honor the codification of laws, then the verbatim version that would be used would always be the Judaic variation and it would be in Hebrew instead of English for historical accuracy. The fact that the version used always ends up being an English one means the choice to go verbatim has nothing to do with historical accuracy or historical reasons at all.


So the discussion then moves on to the wording of the First. Specifically the limitation on passing any laws with regard to the establishment of religion being directed at congress alone. This makes sense because back then, the only Branch of the governemnt which could pass federal laws about anything was Congress. That's not the case anymore. The Judicial branch and the Executive branch have both taken on more legislative power than what was originally intended.

The fact that congress was mentioned, at that time, was essentially placing a limitation upon the federal government (which is what the Bill of Rights was intended to do). At the time, the other two branches wouldn't need to be mentioned specifically because they did not have the authority to legislate. They've taken on the authority since then, though. SO in keeping with the original intent to limit the federal governemnt, I think it should extend to all branches of the federal government that have the ability to legislate to any degree (Which is all three now)

Thus, I would argue that restricting verbatim representations of the 10 commandments from being displayed on federal property is a justified restriction. Generic representations like those at SCOTUS should not be restricted. Also, if the Judaic verbatim variation was used and it was written in Hebrew, I would say it shouldn't be restricted because a legit argument could be made about using them for historical context regarding the codification of laws that would also be free from any risk of "establishment".

When it comes to State and local government property, however, I don't feel that any restrictions are justified for a few different reasons:

1. The state and local governments aren't actually restricted by the first, IMO.
2. Even assuming that incorporation is valid, borderline "establishment" such as this would not affect anyone but the local community represented by that state or local government. This is different from a federal courthouse, for example, because even though a federal courthouse may service that community, it is there representing the entire country, not that community alone. As such, local preferences are not a factor in determining any type of displays present on the federal property.
3. The only time the actions of a state or local government is my business is if it is my own state or local government.


So to sum up:

If the building is federally owned, I think that only generic representations of the 10 commandments should be displayed (with the exception of verbatim Judaic Hebrew versions) if there is a legitimate reason for their display. Typically this limits it to courthouses as a way to honor a historical codification of laws.

If the building is owned by state or local government, I don't care unless it is my own state or locality. If it was my own locality, I would generally would oppose verbatim representations but not enough to really do anything more than write a letter about it. I don't really care enough to organize a protest or anything. Chances are I'd just write an e-mail about it, too, because I don't even know if I care enough to go out and buy a stamp to send a real letter.
 
Restricting government buildings from displaying religious symbols in no way violates the free expression portion of the first amendment. Anyone within that region is still 100% free to express their religion.

Free expression of religion relates to the individual being allowed to express their religion. It doesn't mean that the government should give them the location upon which to do it. They are not entitled to use public resources to express their religion.
Well Tuck, here's a curveball. The public square is not necessarily public resources although it is public property. I don't believe that public funds should be used in any way to put a particular symbol in public.....but have no problem with private funding in the public square. Afterall, if the majority of people are of a base religion such as muslim or christian, etc. then collectively the individuals are represented. Consider this, you don't lose any rights as a public in the public square minus abuses. As long as speech doesn't endanger others it is protected, if we are being honest a simple and I can't stress this enough private display of faith endangers no one.

That's a simple fact. Just because someone has a right to something in no way means that the governemnt should provide it for them. Preventing government buildings from having the 10 commandments is in no way, shape, or form a violation of anyone's religious freedom. nobody is impeded form expressing their religion simply because they are not able to put their symbols in front of a courthouse. Nobody.
Yes and no. If groups are allowed to remove things privately funded from the public square because they are offended then we all lose, as I feel personally that a right has been modified.

That's just a simple fact. Every person in the community is still rightfully allowed to display their symbols on their own property, in their homes, in their places of worship, on privately owned billboards overlooking the highway, etc.

A right to free expression does not include the government being required to provide the means to free expression.



That being said, I would also point out that having a display of the ten commandments on public property is not, automatically, a violation of the concept of "no establishment of religion".
Ahh, but at the heart of the matter is when an official voluntarily puts a privately funded symbol up with the public's approval and another group uses the courts to bar the free exercise thereof.
As was pointed out, the SCOTUS has visual representation of the 10 commandments. Here is an example of what can be found there:

6a00e008d2bcf4883401116900473d970c-800wi


Of course, these are not verbatim representations, but instead are "tablets" marked with Roman numerals. They are honoring the concept of codified laws.

This is vastly different from a verbatim representation of the 10 commandments.

One of the reasons for this is the difference between verbatim portrayals of the 10 commandments between the various faiths that follow them. Catholics have a different set of 10 commandments than the protestants do. Both of these Christian versions differ from the Jewish and Islamic variations.
While I can agree with that decision. Wouldn't you agree that the basic tenets are mostly the same and this boils down to semantics?
 
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