Are Americans really that ignorant to the world?

[Karmashock]

The role you have would work much better if you cooperated with Europe in doing so, let Europe do the prework and especially the diplomacy, if that fails Europe will let you do the "hot war", then Europe takes over more and more to do the peacekeeping and stablizing. This is the way it needs to work. Together the US and the EU can change the world for the better, we can irradicate povery, we can kill AIDS, we can cure curable illnesses across the world, we can secure every person water, we can educate every human being that dont have the possibility. We can basically do anything we want, but only together with adding each others ideals into a wider idea of how to change the world.

First, we're not your monkey... there's nothing that says we have to go out and do the bloody work just because you need it done.
Second, don't think we like to do the bloody work. We don't. We hate it. We HATE it.
Third, americans believe in authority by merit. Europeans generally speaking don't contribute much to maintaining world peace... at least in so far as I understand it and would think many americans would agree. Yet you're very vocal about how things should be done and without contributing much you seem think you can tell us how things are to be done.



If you want america to respect your position more... then get your hands dirty every once in awhile. America will NEVER respect your right to an opinion on these matters if you're always acting like some man that comes down from his ivory tower very few days to tell all the people making thing happen how it's to be done.



If you don't want to get your hands dirty but want us to still respect your right contribute? Pay us. I'm not kidding... that's just about the only way. Make a wire transfer of a few hundred billion dollars when a war happens and you'll find us more agreeable.



But all you're going to do cast votes in the UN and never get into the blood work... well... I'm just going to hit the mute button.


You're no better at diplomacy then the US is no matter what you think... and I would argue that you're worse at it. Because at the end of the day you have to be able to say "or else"... or your whole bargaining position is useless.

(annually)Our joined GDP is 25 trillion, our joint government spendings 6 trillion, our military budget 700 billion, our armed forces 3 million people, our joint military far more powerful than our lonely ones, our foreign aid is hundreds of billions and our influence together is just astonishing.

Alone the US is 12 trillion, spending 2.7 trillion, military budget 400-500 billion, armed forces 1.5 million, decent military, but far from powerful enough, foreign aid very low and influence diminishing, disliked by many countries and even more by the world populace.

You have a larger yet much less productive economy. Despite having a population that is roughly 4/3rd's our size your total GDP isn't that much bigger then our own. What's more a VASTLY larger percentage of your tax dollars is spend on various domestic social welfare programs which leaves your governments very little discretionary income.
Your militarizes are not comparable to the US. You know this... we all saw this in the Gulf war and in Bosnia. Your people have neglected that for a long time and that has had consequences.

As to aid to other countries we actually give more then europe does.

First our military aid cannot be ignored. That has a dollar value and it saves lives.

Second, we give more food then you do. When you see starving africans eating UN food read the label... It says "USA" right on the side in RED WHITE and BLUE. You'll also remember things like that carrier group we deployed after the tsunami that produced millions of gallons of fresh drinking water. Put a price on that.

Third, we are a less socialized society and as such the majority of our cash donations come from INDIVIDUALS and charity organizations. Look at organizations like the international red cross... lots and lots of US dollars fuel those organizations. And most of it comes from people like me... private American citizens.



This doesn't even cover spending on science and research. The US all by itself spends more money on research then Europe and Japan COMBINED. The vast majority of the world's new medicine comes from the US... a great deal of the new technology and software... bio tech... genetically engineered food... etc... Nearly all of it comes from the US.



Now, most of that is because of capitalism. I know... we're feuding on this issue and I don't blame you for thinking that statement is self serving. But the point is that capitalism while you might think it's bad for the working class or whatever does generate more money over all... and because it encourages investment you see a lot more money thrown at research and development. Especially since the US protects and RESPECTS patient holders.


This is something that russia and China have a really big problem with... and europe has some of this too. China won't be inventing anything until they respect inventors... the same is true of the russians. Things like piracy and telling drug companies what they can and cannot charge for new drugs... it ruins your RnD.

The EU is 13 trillion, spending 3 trillion, military budget 200 billion, armed forces 2 million, alright militaries, together decent, rather weak currently, foreign aid is high but could be much higher, influence is growing, repsected across the world, mostly liked by people, even in the middle east.

Together my friend, together we could make the world like it should be.

Honestly, brother... things have to change soon... The US is already moving it's strategic alliance west. Currently europe has just been unreliable in our estimation as an ally. We're not confident that you'll come to our aid if we need you. Where as with the threat of China we can find allies in asia that can be made in time into much stronger allies.


Ultimately that might be for the best anyway... as you don't like to get your hands dirty... and Asia might be willing to do that.


There is major diversity, culturally, economically, climate, about anything you can think about, but its very European all of it.


This isn't a threat... it's a chess move. No one wants to feel vulnerable... and this conflict we've had with europe has made us feel unsafe... we need allies we can rely upon. If you can't be those allies... then we have to find others... it's nothing personal. England and prehaps denmark seem to be the only real friends we have in europe right now... France... france has burned it's bridges.


You won't see any american politicians saying this as it would serve no purpose... but France crossed the line... we're done with them.

And that alone might ruin any chances of the trans atlantic alliance being saved... sorry to share the grim news... but we NEED allies that can be counted on.

Think of it, if you want to start a business, one of the worst places in the world to do so is in Belgium, while one of the best is Ireland/Denmark.

Stop right there... america LOVES ireland for a lot of reasons. One a lot of americans are irish americans... and the Irish carried a lot of their culture into american's soul. The french and germans didn't really make any waves. The english are of course our foundation... but the Irish... we love ireland.


And we also know that ireland has made itself attractive to US business... that's just a match made in heaven... you have no idea.

If you have a high paid work, there are lots of places with terrible taxes in Europe, but we also have a variety of countries with very low taxes.

Same can be said in the US. California has high taxes... Nevada has no taxes. NONE... Actually... in Alaska you get PAID every year to live there! :rofl

Of course, I'm just talking about state taxes. The federal tax applies everywhere. But some states have absolutely CRIPPLING taxes... New York for example has such high taxes that no one outside of New York city can easily pay them. Northern New York is dying from over taxation.... where as else where... as I said... no taxes at all.


Nevada pays for the state budget by taxing gambling institutions. They don't have a sales tax or an income tax.

Many countries in Europe have the highest minimum wages in the world while, and very high average incomes, whole others have the lowest ones in the western world.

same in the states... go to the south and you'll see very low wages... go to new york or california and you'll see very high wages.

If you are a workers, you can find the country with the highest job security in the world in Europe while other countries in Europe have no job security at all.
In one country you find a standard 35 hour week, while in others the standard is 48 hours.
This whole area works as one country, even if its not, can you imagine the possibilities?

The US economy is generally better so I don't know if we can claim the same disparity... but I guess detriot is pretty awful. That was mistake the unions made.


The Unions basically bankrupted the american Auto Industry. They thought they could keep demanding higher wages while cheaper competition kept pushing prices lower and quality up.

So, the auto industry decovered a solution... they closed their factories in those areas. America still makes a LOT of cars... just not many in detriot. They did it to themselves.


A big difference between Europe and the US is our relationship with the Unions. Don't get me wrong, they used to have their place back in the bad old days. But today they mostly cause problems... and most businesses have decided to lay a very clear ultimatum on the table... and that is "burn me and I'll break you"... unions that have tested that recently have been crushed. Where as in europe I've seen that if you go against the unions not only do your workers strike but the government passes a law telling the company to do what the Union says.


That said, the unions are stronger in some areas more then others. Generally the more urban an area is the stronger they are... the exceptions being in the south mostly where the unions were never had the history they have in the north... the west is also less union friendly...

A lot of this has to do with cheap labor from mexico... which is a mixed bag of good and bad. But it was central to breaking the unions in a few areas.

The economic diversity is enourmous, and the possibilities the best in the world in my opinion. Very favorable indeed.

I don't know... there's 4 percent unemployment where I live... where in europe do you see 4 percent unemployment?

Thats just one part of European diversity, so I wouldnt say its not diverse. All other apescts also varies alot.

So does the US... my point is that just because you've seen all of europe doesn't mean you've seen more of "the world" then someone that's just seen the US... the US a big place.

 

[Karmashock]

I wouldnt know who the governer of new york is because from my perspective the governor of new york is insignificant. Just as european politics are insignificant to americans.Population isnt the issue its influence.

You're missing the point. The argument being made by many is that europeans are more aware of the US then the US is aware of europe.


Then you ask questions like who is my prime minister or something... and say "well, I know who your president is"...


That's not fair. America has more influence then all of europe COMBINED. Not in the UNSC obviously because you have two votes. But if you look at our relative impact on world events it's hard to say europe has anywhere near the influence of europe.



You've set americans up to fail. You're saying that htey need to know about each and every country in europe or we're ignorant... yet you only need to know ONE country's top officials to claim sophistication? No.


Look, what I'm saying is that for it to be fair europeans would have to know who the governors of every major state in the US are... lets say the ten or fifteen most significant states.


If the average european can do that, then I'll hold the average american to the standard of knowing all of your people. Otherwise... it's not fair. You've made things very easy for europeans and very complicated for americans... of course the europeans are going to do better. It has nothing to do with americans but with your test.
========================================================

uh oh Red Dave... Now you are in trouble. You will be braded anti American because you said the governor of NY is insignificant. (in your position)
The Americans here will prove to you how she is significant and how good the US is and how bad England is.

Beware..

Hey, have I done that? You understand that saying that right after my post makes it sound like I'm an ******* right?



I don't demonize people. If you note the gist of my posts all I'm asking for is for people to be fair and considerate of the standards you're setting here.


Maybe you're just kidding around and maybe some americans around here do that... but in the interest of civility I'd ask you show some of that european sophistication and restraint by being diplomatic... Eh?


How does it look for you when the american is being more diplomatic then the europeans?

Something to think about.

 

[Red_Dave]

You've set americans up to fail. You're saying that htey need to know about each and every country in europe or we're ignorant... yet you only need to know ONE country's top officials to claim sophistication? No.

.

.

Thats exactly what im not saying. Im saying europeans have more understanding of U.S politics BECAUSE IT EFFECTS THEM, this doesnt apply visa versa. Im not calling anyone ignorant per say im saying americans dont understand european politics because they dont need to.

 

[Karmashock]

Thats exactly what im not saying. Im saying europeans have more understanding of U.S politics BECAUSE IT EFFECTS THEM, this doesnt apply visa versa. Im not calling anyone ignorant per say im saying americans dont understand european politics because they dont need to.

Not true... we've followed french politics, english politics, italian politics, german politics, and a little of spain's politics.


Why?

France has effected us with their UNSC vote... and of course we watched the riots... we know about the election they had... etc.

English politics... great allies generally... we follow that because blair has been fighting hard to keep his ship together. It matters to us.

Italian politics... we followed them more at the start of the war because italy was a better ally then. Also we were interested in that situation where the Italian journalist was killed by American troops accidentally. So we informed ourselves about who lots of those people were... it was all in the newspapers.

German politics... Angela Merkel has been very nice to the US lately so we know who she is and we've followed a little of germany's politics.

Spainish politics... eh... they were mostly interesting at the start when spain was a supporter... after they stabbed us in the back we haven't cared much... but we informed ourselves to some extent at that time.



No one was really investigated...


Taken all together that's a lot of information that americans are aware of... is it as deep as your understanding of america? Yes. Because you don't have a deep understanding of america. And neither do americans of europe. On average we know roughly the same about each other.

But america is one BIG target and europe is 15 little targets... obviously you're going to have an easier time with one big target. But it won't be any deeper then our penetration of your system.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Good... then you know some of what I'm talking about. The US all by itself minus the language issue is really as diverse if not more diverse then all of europe.


Even the legal systems change from one part of the country to another. Most europeans don't know that... See, most of europe has a unitary government. that is there is one government with absolute authority. In the US we have a federal system which states that EACH state gets to make up most of the rules so long as they don't do anything that screws up the harmony of the union. We pay taxes to our state governments as well as the big federal government... we also pay city and county taxes. We vote for city representatives, for county representatives, for state representatives, and for federal representatives.

Each state is a lot like it's own little country with limited sovereignty. They have their own presidents, their own legislatures, their own budgets drawn from taxes that they personally were able to set without any say by the federal government, they have their own educational policies, their own idea of what is legal or illegal, and they even have their own detachment of the military which will do what the THAT state tells them to do.

You can't tell me that most europeans know that. Because I've talked to know enough europeans to know otherwise.

Well, like me I think most Europeans are aware of the way America works, thanks for the lesson. I am aware of the political system, the only thing not clear to me 100% is the powers of senate vs congress and top government and how this functions. To be honest, it doesnt really interest me that much.

I'm not arguing for more then that we're really just about equally ignorant of each other here. I'm not saying we're better then you, I'm just saying you're not better then we are...


Be fair.

I never claimed that, I am just trying to inform people of the reality of situations.

Sure, but compared to your own countrymen as well. Brother, I have a better idea... or so I like to think as to what is going on then most people... perhaps that's my hubris but that doesn't mean Americans are as aware as I am... it means THIS american is aware.

I think my countrymen are a bunch of nationalistic fools who care for nothing but flashing their own money and proclaiming themself best because they care about irrelevant things and dont care to get involved in anything intellectual. Thats why I moved from Norway.

I think my other countrymen the French are snobs, and stuck in time, I think they badly need change, but are unwilling to change. France is a wonderful country, but people just need to change. The EU must force France to reform. If I had a billion Euro and would retire from life and buy land and house to settle down with, and be able to choose anywhere in the world, I would choose France, no doubt.

Your own personal place in the world is just that... you sound like a smart guy that's informed himself... good... just remember that fate isn't so kind to everyone everywhere... lots of people wouldn't know it was raining if you had them stand under a under a roof drain... that's humanity for you. But no one has a monopoly on idiots.

I am sorry for sounding like an idiot when I say that most people are idiots, Ive only made a few people in life that I consider intelligent, open minded and free thinking people. Ive met many that pretended to be.

You can't pretend that opposition to the US has been an entirely rational affair.

Well, thats true enough. MOSTLY its a rational affair until some little prick on this forum answers a 500 word post with "you spelled this wrong, you snobbish European".

You have people comparing bush to hitler, americans to facists,

Is that completely unfair in your opinion? I know its a bit over the edge, but to get the point out, sometimes you do have to exhaggerate.

setting american flags on fire... etc.
Hey look, we have people in the US doing that too... So I don't hold it against you.

Ive never ever burned a flag, I would never do so unless.... Yeah, unless something that made me a billion times angrier than I am now, I would burn NAZI flags in 1940s.

But don't pretend that you were sitting over there being reasonable in your opposition either.

Mostly I am reasonable.. Considering the opposition and who I debate againt on this forum I am very reasonable.

The quality of political discourse in the western world has gone to hell. I think we can both admit that.

Wrong... In the US, not the west.. In Europe we are still talking about both sides of a case, trying to find common ground rather than calling the other side idiots and enemies of the state etc. In Europe we have civilized debates using facts and listening to other peoples opinion. This is impossible for example on this forum..
You would be an exception to that rule(it seems), there are a few other exceptions as well.

And just as our people said hurtful and unhelpful things to europe, europe did the same thing to the US. It's nothing personal but western media has really become useless lately. And furthermore I don't think people are educated properly as to how things are to be discussed. Both sides of the pond... Whenever I see people talking about politics on TV it's always pointless petty bickering between parties trying to score some sad point.

You are wrong.. On this forum people throw bad things at Europe vs the US.
In the US left and right is throwing bombs at each other, namecallings, making fun of hair, saying that if you dont support us you support the enemy etc.

I Europe this is not the case, we can all agree that we disagree and find common ground we agree on. We can have a debate about the things we dont agree using facts and listening to each others ideas and debating them again and again presenting arguments to each others.

My personal thoughts on why this is that philosophy in the west has died from what I can see. Who takes it? This is the MOST fundemental study in western civilization. And until people are educated in philosophy again I really think it's just going to keep getting worse and worse. It's a bit like the curse of Babel... god damned them by having them all speak different languages so they couldn't understand each other. Likewise people are so charged with passion and emotion... and so impatient that they aren't able to communicate anymore.

Again you say the west.. I would say the US.
Its a media game and mass brainwashing of the people, extreme against extreme, and those extremes together against other extremes, and everything turning extreme.

It's like we say things and we hear the words and understand the words... but it doesn't come together... we can't understand what the other person is talking about. And like some stupid tourist thinks all he has to do to be understood is talk louder people start screaming at each other...

I understand what you mean, thats exactly like I feel on this forum. Me personally I try to understand the American standpoint, but I dont agree. I dont like nationalism that much.

Like shouting is going to make the other side agree with you...

Exactly, like calling each other names will help any more.

The difference isn't that extreme even in the most ambitious statistics. Furthermore, while we have more homicides then you do... you have more beatings, rapes, and thefts.

Thats untrue, the US have more violent crimes than Europe, especially rapes.
NationMaster - Statistics > Rapes (per capita) by country

Thats twice the first European country on the list, the UK. Per capita.

Weapn crimes killings.
NationMaster - Statistics > Murders with firearms (per capita) by country

The differences might seem small, but when the US rate is about 50 times higher than Germany its a big difference.

Assaults per capita.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_***_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita

Just a few examples.. Anyone from the US here wil protest that, they will use phrases like "the US is best", "Europe world war 2", "most powerful army in the world" etc etc.

As to our guns... europeans rarely understand that. That is philosophy. You have to understand that we as americans OWN the state. We are the state. At least philosophically... As such we not only have a right to be "dangerous" but we have a responsibility to be dangerous. Not just for self defense but as a final guard against tyranny. Europeans have a very different culture then most on that note.

I dont particularily like the though that anyone can carry a gun and kill you that easy of they want or freak out.
You cant defend against bullets, but you can defend against 10 men trying to kick your ***, much more against 1 man. If you want and need you can always get a gun in Europe, but who needs that, right?

I think the Swiss would be the only people that would understand what I'm talking about as I believe they are required to have guns. Their reasons for this are similar... in the event of invasion the armed citizens can instantly become an army.

They dont have guns, they have them laying around at homes, and its automatic weapons. The bullet bag is sealed and the penalty for opening it is severe. IN the US, many states you can carry a loeaded and concealed weapon, this is different.

Besides, Switzerland has the highest weapon murder rate in Europe and a quite high suicide rate.

 

[Karmashock]

Well, like me I think most Europeans are aware of the way America works, thanks for the lesson. I am aware of the political system, the only thing not clear to me 100% is the powers of senate vs congress and top government and how this functions. To be honest, it doesnt really interest me that much.

Just don't claim euros understand americans better then we understand you... it doesn't hold water.

I never claimed that, I am just trying to inform people of the reality of situations.

good, so long as you don't claim europeans know more about the world or america then america does about the world or europe we're in agreement.

I think my countrymen are a bunch of nationalistic fools who care for nothing but flashing their own money and proclaiming themself best because they care about irrelevant things and dont care to get involved in anything intellectual. Thats why I moved from Norway.

hmmm... norway... oil wealth... one of the best economies in europe because of that oil wealth. See... americans know a thing or three.

I think my other countrymen the French are snobs, and stuck in time, I think they badly need change, but are unwilling to change. France is a wonderful country, but people just need to change. The EU must force France to reform. If I had a billion Euro and would retire from life and buy land and house to settle down with, and be able to choose anywhere in the world, I would choose France, no doubt.

my english grandfather used to say that france would be a beautiful country if not for all the french people...


Don't blame him... he was an old warhorse. Came back from the war with three belly buttons. The one god gave him, the one a german bullet gave him, and the one the doctor gave him when he took it out.


Anyway, I've been to france and thought the people were very nice. Though I've never been to paris which is apparently where all the snobs are... I stayed a few days in southern france... a nice man with a small restaurant saw me walking around and asked me if I wanted lunch... it being lunch time and him being nice I said "sure" and this guy sat me down and made me a cheese burger... he had american ketchup and mustard too... it was great. I hadn't been back to the US in about two months so it was nice to come home for a little while with that... and he talked about random crap that was going on in the area.

Nice guy... I gave him a big tip.

I am sorry for sounding like an idiot when I say that most people are idiots, Ive only made a few people in life that I consider intelligent, open minded and free thinking people. Ive met many that pretended to be.

No worries... Keep a smile on your face or you'll scare off the few people out there worth talking too... after all... would you want to talk to you all the time.

Well, thats true enough. MOSTLY its a rational affair until some little prick on this forum answers a 500 word post with "you spelled this wrong, you snobbish European".

I can't speak to this forum as I'm new. But I just want want to make it clear that europe hasn't been much calmer during this period then the US has... and the euros have thrown their fair share of hateful comments our way. I also note that you do this to each other as well... so I don't want to hear "they're not european" as an excuse... even if that mattered... which it doesn't... it's just not true.

Is that completely unfair in your opinion? I know its a bit over the edge, but to get the point out, sometimes you do have to exhaggerate.

COMPLETELY unfair. You have no idea how completely out of control and unfair that is... I lack the words to express how insane that comment sounded to us.

It's not even an exaggeration... it would be like the US saying French are like demons or something... Ever hear Chavez make one of his little speechs? You know... "I smell sulfer" etc? It sounds like that...


Now, I don't blame you for that... because as I said the quality of debate THROUGHOUT ALL of western civilization has fallen apart. But that doesn't mean it's acceptable either. Just forgivable... and then only in context with everything else.

Ive never ever burned a flag, I would never do so unless.... Yeah, unless something that made me a billion times angrier than I am now, I would burn NAZI flags in 1940s.

The only people I want to see burning american flags are facists and communists.


I know Europeans don't have the same relationship with communism that we do... but we fought the soviets... you didn't. We had their spies infiltrating our society... we had them stealing our military secrets... we had them trying to sneak nuclear weapons into neighboring countries. We had MILLIONS of soviet refugess flooding into our country over decades.


So america generally sees fascism and communism as morally equivelent. Just the way things are... and while know you might not hold that belief it doesn't change mine.


Anyway, I don't like to see people calling themselves our allies doing it. As I said some times our own citizens do it... but honestly they're typically just stupid college kids or hardcore communists... in the first case they'll probably grow out of it and feel bad about it later... in the second every country has it's share of nutjobs.

Wrong... In the US, not the west.. In Europe we are still talking about both sides of a case, trying to find common ground rather than calling the other side idiots and enemies of the state etc. In Europe we have civilized debates using facts and listening to other peoples opinion. This is impossible for example on this forum..

I read your papers... that's not what I see. I see just as much bias, hatred, intolerance, demonization, character assassination...

it's all there.
You would be an exception to that rule(it seems), there are a few other exceptions as well.

I've been on enough forums and randomly flamed by europeans to know america has no monopoly on idiots.


Again, I think you're misrepresenting the US because you know europe better.

You are wrong.. On this forum people throw bad things at Europe vs the US.
In the US left and right is throwing bombs at each other, namecallings, making fun of hair, saying that if you dont support us you support the enemy etc.

I Europe this is not the case, we can all agree that we disagree and find common ground we agree on. We can have a debate about the things we dont agree using facts and listening to each others ideas and debating them again and again presenting arguments to each others.

Again you say the west.. I would say the US.
Its a media game and mass brainwashing of the people, extreme against extreme, and those extremes together against other extremes, and everything turning extreme.

I see the same thing in europe... do you want me to quote you from newspapers?


Come on... are you sure that what you think is politeness isn't just a room full of people that all have the same values?


Put a bunch of US democrats in one place and they won't insult each other... they'll insult republicans perhaps... same thing with republicans... and from what I've seen, you get the same thing from europeans.


They're nice until they meet someone that disagrees with them... then they get nasty.


Again, it's a problem with the whole western world.

I understand what you mean, thats exactly like I feel on this forum. Me personally I try to understand the American standpoint, but I dont agree. I dont like nationalism that much.

Nationalism to europeans means fascism. I understand that. You are taught that the last two great wars in Europe were caused by nationalism.


But you have to understand is that US history makes us nationalistic. We CLAWED our nation by force of arms away from the british empire. Our national identity is VERY important to us. It is part of who we are... and we won't give that up. But being nationalistic... or waving our flag... it doesn't make us nazis. And you do my people a great disservice by thinking of us in that way.


Nationalism does NOT = Nazism.

Exactly, like calling each other names will help any more.

I'm not saying you're worse then we are! Look, I'm just saying you're not any better.


Chill brother.

Thats untrue, the US have more violent crimes than Europe, especially rapes.

those studies don't work. Largely because the way statistics are taken differ from one nation to another. There was a credible study done by the US justice department and the English justice department that was very through.

It's rather old at this point... I think almost 6 years at this point. Anyway, the figures change if you examine the details... I'll try and find that study.

I dont particularily like the though that anyone can carry a gun and kill you that easy of they want or freak out.

Anyone can kill you with their car... or with a knife...

You cant defend against bullets, but you can defend against 10 men trying to kick your ***, much more against 1 man. If you want and need you can always get a gun in Europe, but who needs that, right?

Something that you have in europe that you don't have in the US is what is called a "hot burglary"... that is where a bunch of guys go into a home with baseball bats and rob the house WHILE people are home. The people there can't do anything because there are five strong young men with clubs.



In the US, an old lady could drop the first one of them that came into her room.



Thieves are cowards... so in the US thieves make sure you're not home first.

They dont have guns, they have them laying around at homes, and its automatic weapons. The bullet bag is sealed and the penalty for opening it is severe. IN the US, many states you can carry a loeaded and concealed weapon, this is different.

Yes it is... we are a different country. I have a right to be dangerous in mine.


I am the state. I am 1/300 millionth of the United States of America. And I can kill a man.


If I committed murder then I pay for that... perhaps with my life under the right circumstances.

Besides, Switzerland has the highest weapon murder rate in Europe and a quite high suicide rate.

maybe they're just depressed with all those koo koo clocks?

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

First, we're not your monkey... there's nothing that says we have to go out and do the bloody work just because you need it done.
Second, don't think we like to do the bloody work. We don't. We hate it. We HATE it.
Third, americans believe in authority by merit. Europeans generally speaking don't contribute much to maintaining world peace... at least in so far as I understand it and would think many americans would agree. Yet you're very vocal about how things should be done and without contributing much you seem think you can tell us how things are to be done.

You dont have to be our monkey, just our violent right hand. Tss, if you hate it so much, how come your military budget is 400 billion+ while your education budget is 100 billion..

You are wrong.. Most peacekeeping forces in the world is European. Most foreign aid is European. the EU in itself is a peacekeeping project, it breeds democratic governments and market oriented free economies not only in the EU but also the neighrbouhood around.

If you want america to respect your position more... then get your hands dirty every once in awhile. America will NEVER respect your right to an opinion on these matters if you're always acting like some man that comes down from his ivory tower very few days to tell all the people making thing happen how it's to be done.

Thats our role, we be the brain, America the muscle. Then lets move it into becoming whatever from there, a merged brain and merged muscle. European ideals and ideas is functioning so muhc better than American ones right now.

While you are wasting 100 billion a year in Iraq, we "adopt" all of eastern Europe and spend less than that on making it stable and market oriented free economies.
We spend less than 100 billion on maintaining the largest peacekeeping force in the world. UN peackeeping is in reality EU+ peacekeeping.

If you don't want to get your hands dirty but want us to still respect your right contribute? Pay us. I'm not kidding... that's just about the only way. Make a wire transfer of a few hundred billion dollars when a war happens and you'll find us more agreeable.

Why? You spend 500 billion on the military every year now, including Iraq war spending. I think we should contribute more in "hot wars" instead.

Hot wars is most needed in Africa not the middle east, they are needed in Africa so Europe can build their infrastructure and stable democratic governments. But America would need to handle most of the "hot wars".

But all you're going to do cast votes in the UN and never get into the blood work... well... I'm just going to hit the mute button.

We contribute more militarily, but run the show of rebuilding things and maintaining peace.

You're no better at diplomacy then the US is no matter what you think... and I would argue that you're worse at it. Because at the end of the day you have to be able to say "or else"... or your whole bargaining position is useless.

No? Really? I know that its reasonable to have diplomatic efforts with Iran, or at least try before attacking them. The US shoudl get involved in those efforts or give the EU mandate to say, "we want to help you, but if you dont accept the US army is ready to attack you".

You have a larger yet much less productive economy. Despite having a population that is roughly 4/3rd's our size your total GDP isn't that much bigger then our own. What's more a VASTLY larger percentage of your tax dollars is spend on various domestic social welfare programs which leaves your governments very little discretionary income.

We have a larger economy yes, we have slightly larger government spendings yes, and we have a lower production yes. But per hour worked our production equals that of the US. We just have more vacation and shorter days than you guys, thats no shame in my opinion. Its not the ultimate goal to have the highest GDP. In that case Luxembour, Norway and Ireland have higher GDPs PC than the US, but in my opinion I would rather not live in those countries.
Norway have a heavy social system, yet their GDP PC is higher than that of the US.

Your militarizes are not comparable to the US. You know this... we all saw this in the Gulf war and in Bosnia. Your people have neglected that for a long time and that has had consequences.

Of course it is not, its 27 militaries, not one single one. If it was a single one I am sure we could have a military almost equal of that of the US at far lesser a cost.

As to aid to other countries we actually give more then europe does.

Sorry to catch you in a lie when I just started liking you. Dont dissapoint me now and go through that same road of mixing donations, and comparing something with something else.
US government donation per capita is far lower than any European nation, the total contrubution is dwarfed by the EU total.

First our military aid cannot be ignored. That has a dollar value and it saves lives.

Thats not aid, no one is getting food for soldiers. If it saves or kills is a question. I dont include European peacekeeping costs around the world as foreign aid. Nor is the US invasion of Iraq.

Second, we give more food then you do. When you see starving africans eating UN food read the label...

Yes, as subsidy of US agriculture. You produce food and give it away, it creates US jobs.

It says "USA" right on the side in RED WHITE and BLUE. You'll also remember things like that carrier group we deployed after the tsunami that produced millions of gallons of fresh drinking water. Put a price on that.

Thats decent and very nice but its not foreign AID, that carrier shouldnt have been there in the first place.

Third, we are a less socialized society and as such the majority of our cash donations come from INDIVIDUALS and charity organizations. Look at organizations like the international red cross... lots and lots of US dollars fuel those organizations. And most of it comes from people like me... private American citizens.

And most of those cash are used INSIDE the US.
And you forget that Europeans do exactly the same thing, we also have charity, dont forget that.

This doesn't even cover spending on science and research. The US all by itself spends more money on research then Europe and Japan COMBINED. The vast majority of the world's new medicine comes from the US... a great deal of the new technology and software... bio tech... genetically engineered food... etc... Nearly all of it comes from the US.

Lies, except GM food, because Euroe is against that.
US R&D is bigger than Europe, but ours is increasing faster than the US.

A majority of new medicine comes not from the US, it comes from Europe and the US. Its about equal, European pharma and medical indsutry is bigger than that of the US if you count Switzerland.

New technology, thats a lie, its ONLY in software technology the US leads. Also, Linux, the future of software is Finnish. Most new technology come from all around the world.
Bio tech, yes, you have a lead.. Europe shys GM.

Telecom is owned by Europe. Chemicals is owned by Europe, Mechanics is owned by Europe, engineering is owned by Europe, automotive industries owned by Europe. Countless other things. Europe and the US are both great in their things.

Microtechnology and software is the US expertise. Entertainment also is owned by the US.

Now, most of that is because of capitalism. I know... we're feuding on this issue and I don't blame you for thinking that statement is self serving. But the point is that capitalism while you might think it's bad for the working class or whatever does generate more money over all... and because it encourages investment you see a lot more money thrown at research and development. Especially since the US protects and RESPECTS patient holders.

Patents are well and good in almost all ways, except software and nanopatents which are ridiculous and destroys the industries.

This is something that russia and China have a really big problem with... and europe has some of this too. China won't be inventing anything until they respect inventors... the same is true of the russians. Things like piracy and telling drug companies what they can and cannot charge for new drugs... it ruins your RnD.

How come open source software is the most innovative then? I promise you that the countries who dont give a **** about patents and such petty issues are the ones who will lead the world in technology in the future.
They can copy anything, they can reinvent and freely develop, technologies of theirs can be improved by others instead of standing still as monopolies.

Honestly, brother... things have to change soon... The US is already moving it's strategic alliance west. Currently europe has just been unreliable in our estimation as an ally. We're not confident that you'll come to our aid if we need you. Where as with the threat of China we can find allies in asia that can be made in time into much stronger allies.

Whatever you think, you are not moving west, the US is completely dependant on the EU. I can say the same way that the EU is moving east, but its not, the EU is completely dependant on the US. This will be so for hundreds of years.
Of course we will come to your aid if you need US, just ask our permission first and get it, then we will help. If you go against our will we will not help you obviously. You could have done much greater in Iraq with massive European help. France alone would have helped you carry Iraq to victory, not just because they have a decent military but also because they are well respected in the middle east and across the globe.

Ultimately that might be for the best anyway... as you don't like to get your hands dirty... and Asia might be willing to do that.

Asia will do nothing for you, except exploit you and then kick you in your balls when they dont need you anymore.
Its more likely that Asia will have conflicts with the US than help them. Where are all the Asian nations in Iraq? Japan, yes, but the rest?

This isn't a threat... it's a chess move. No one wants to feel vulnerable... and this conflict we've had with europe has made us feel unsafe... we need allies we can rely upon. If you can't be those allies... then we have to find others... it's nothing personal. England and prehaps denmark seem to be the only real friends we have in europe right now... France... france has burned it's bridges.

As long as we can trust you, you can trust us.
France didnt burn any bridges, the US did that.

You won't see any american politicians saying this as it would serve no purpose... but France crossed the line... we're done with them.

Crossed the line with what? Not going to your silly Iraq war.. Guess who was right? Look at Iraq now and tell me France was wrong... Your war, your mess.

And that alone might ruin any chances of the trans atlantic alliance being saved... sorry to share the grim news... but we NEED allies that can be counted on.

The EU already allies with Russia in some way, and we have a healthy relationship with China, more trade with China than the US have with China for example.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Stop right there... america LOVES ireland for a lot of reasons. One a lot of americans are irish americans... and the Irish carried a lot of their culture into american's soul. The french and germans didn't really make any waves. The english are of course our foundation... but the Irish... we love ireland.

I live in Ireland right now, I like the Irish, but I am moving back to the mainland, Ireland is too Isolated.. We made them rich, thats about it, now they are ours.

And we also know that ireland has made itself attractive to US business... that's just a match made in heaven... you have no idea.

Ireland, made by the EU..
Every piece of infrastructure in Ireland is paid by the EU, we made Ireland, without Europe Ireland would not be much and US companies would not be here.

Same can be said in the US. California has high taxes... Nevada has no taxes. NONE... Actually... in Alaska you get PAID every year to live there! :rofl

Lol, Alaska. Yeah, I can imagine.

Of course, I'm just talking about state taxes. The federal tax applies everywhere. But some states have absolutely CRIPPLING taxes... New York for example has such high taxes that no one outside of New York city can easily pay them. Northern New York is dying from over taxation.... where as else where... as I said... no taxes at all.

I didnt know there was such huge differences. Whats the highest tax burdon in the US if you include federal and state taxes.

Nevada pays for the state budget by taxing gambling institutions. They don't have a sales tax or an income tax.

Sweet...

same in the states... go to the south and you'll see very low wages... go to new york or california and you'll see very high wages.

Yes, but European incomes in some countries are the highest in the world, yet in the same "country(Europe)" you can hire high skilled workers at 150€ a month.

The US economy is generally better so I don't know if we can claim the same disparity... but I guess detriot is pretty awful. That was mistake the unions made.

The differences in Europe is huge, that makes it very attractive when its "one country". You can go anywhere and do anything and exploit whatever you want. Its beautiful for small businesses.

The Unions basically bankrupted the american Auto Industry. They thought they could keep demanding higher wages while cheaper competition kept pushing prices lower and quality up.

its a shame. Now toyota is taking first place ahead of GM. American carmakers are shadows of their former selves.

So, the auto industry decovered a solution... they closed their factories in those areas. America still makes a LOT of cars... just not many in detriot. They did it to themselves.

American auto industry is in crisis, its falling apart quicker than it was created.

A big difference between Europe and the US is our relationship with the Unions. Don't get me wrong, they used to have their place back in the bad old days. But today they mostly cause problems... and most businesses have decided to lay a very clear ultimatum on the table... and that is "burn me and I'll break you"... unions that have tested that recently have been crushed. Where as in europe I've seen that if you go against the unions not only do your workers strike but the government passes a law telling the company to do what the Union says.

Unions are most active in France and Germany.. I guess as time goes it will become more new unions to replace them, Pan European unions.

I don't know... there's 4 percent unemployment where I live... where in europe do you see 4 percent unemployment?

The Netherlands, 3.5%, thats 16 million people living there. Denmark 3.4%. Certain areas of other countries have low unemployment as well, like Bavaria in Germany. I dont know much about the region unempoloyment, but its very low in some areas, and incredibly high in others.

Ireland and Austria is 4.5% nationwide.

So does the US... my point is that just because you've seen all of europe doesn't mean you've seen more of "the world" then someone that's just seen the US... the US a big place.

Did I ever say that?

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Hey, have I done that? You understand that saying that right after my post makes it sound like I'm an ******* right?



I don't demonize people. If you note the gist of my posts all I'm asking for is for people to be fair and considerate of the standards you're setting here.


Maybe you're just kidding around and maybe some americans around here do that... but in the interest of civility I'd ask you show some of that european sophistication and restraint by being diplomatic... Eh?


How does it look for you when the american is being more diplomatic then the europeans?

Something to think about.

That wasnt about you, it was about certtain people on this forum, vad*cough*er*.

 

[Karmashock]

You dont have to be our monkey, just our violent right hand. Tss, if you hate it so much, how come your military budget is 400 billion+ while your education budget is 100 billion.

First, again we're not going to be your anything but your ally. It's very arrogant for you to presume that we put you in a leadership role and then you won't do anything to back us up when the **** hits the fan. Screw that, jack. You either pull your weight or you get cut out of the picture. I'm serious. If you expect to be respected then you need contribute your BLOOD, BONE, and GOLD. We've put our blood, bone, and gold on the table... you're offering words? I think not. there is no way that will ever happen... ever. We're not your slaves. And yes, if we give you complete control and do all the hard work we would be slaves. Screw that.

As to our education system we have more private education then you do. As oru economy is better and our taxes are lower that works out well. Furthermore most of our education is funded at the STATE level and not the federal level. So your estimation of our funding would be wrong on several levels.

You are wrong.. Most peacekeeping forces in the world is European. Most foreign aid is European. the EU in itself is a peacekeeping project, it breeds democratic governments and market oriented free economies not only in the EU but also the neighrbouhood around.

Blue hats? Sure... respected the world over for their ability to keep the peace... not.

as to aid, that isn't true. Again, look at the food starving Africans are eating...

Thats our role, we be the brain, America the muscle. Then lets move it into becoming whatever from there, a merged brain and merged muscle. European ideals and ideas is functioning so muhc better than American ones right now.

The unbelievable arrogance of that statement is astounding. We put men on the moon. We're leading the computer revolution. We're producing most of the new medicines... what makes you think you're smarter then us?


Unbelievable. No, you want in, you pull your weight or no deal. What you're saying is that the US should push the car and you get to drive?


fine... I'll do that if every other mile we switch and you push the car and we get to drive... otherwise, get out of the car and we'll push AND drive.

While you are wasting 100 billion a year in Iraq, we "adopt" all of eastern Europe and spend less than that on making it stable and market oriented free economies.
We spend less than 100 billion on maintaining the largest peacekeeping force in the world. UN peackeeping is in reality EU+ peacekeeping.

And where do you keep the peace? See any combat? Take any causalities? How many of your peacekeepers even fire their guns?


As to adopting all of eastern europe congrats but both of us know that Iraq is harder then what you're doing. Do you honestly think you could fight this war better then we are? And no, giving up and walking away is not "winning".

Why? You spend 500 billion on the military every year now, including Iraq war spending. I think we should contribute more in "hot wars" instead.

Hot wars is most needed in Africa not the middle east, they are needed in Africa so Europe can build their infrastructure and stable democratic governments. But America would need to handle most of the "hot wars".

So? Pay us so our tax payers don't have to cover the whole bill. That or why should anyone listen to you? What are you contributing?

If you're not going to help then get out of the way.

We contribute more militarily, but run the show of rebuilding things and maintaining peace.

Iraq needs rebuilding... rebuild it.

No? Really? I know that its reasonable to have diplomatic efforts with Iran, or at least try before attacking them. The US shoudl get involved in those efforts or give the EU mandate to say, "we want to help you, but if you dont accept the US army is ready to attack you".

First, you haven't earned the right to that mandate. So don't ask for it.
Second, we've put two rounds of sanctions on Iran... that is diplomacy.


Iran is bat$hit insane.

We have a larger economy yes, we have slightly larger government spendings yes, and we have a lower production yes. But per hour worked our production equals that of the US. We just have more vacation and shorter days than you guys, thats no shame in my opinion. Its not the ultimate goal to have the highest GDP. In that case Luxembour, Norway and Ireland have higher GDPs PC than the US, but in my opinion I would rather not live in those countries.
Norway have a heavy social system, yet their GDP PC is higher than that of the US.

Shame doesn't come into it. It's just a fact of life.


As to luxemborg their economy is only big because they're europe's tax shelter... and as I said before Norway's economy is largely boosted by it's oil wealth. Not it's production. If the US had as much oil percapita then our per captia gdp would be higher then theirs.

Of course it is not, its 27 militaries, not one single one. If it was a single one I am sure we could have a military almost equal of that of the US at far lesser a cost.

I doubt it... but since we have no way of knowing for sure I don't see the point of arguing it.

Sorry to catch you in a lie when I just started liking you. Dont dissapoint me now and go through that same road of mixing donations, and comparing something with something else.
US government donation per capita is far lower than any European nation, the total contrubution is dwarfed by the EU total.

That's because you're socialists. We give differently. You have to look at total contributions by the country as a whole. Not just the government.

that is neither a lie nor a distortion. that is just pointing out that you're not being fair. Don't like it? Pick a different topic.

Thats not aid, no one is getting food for soldiers. If it saves or kills is a question. I dont include European peacekeeping costs around the world as foreign aid. Nor is the US invasion of Iraq.

It saves lives and we do it to help people. Call that what you like, I'll call it foreign aid.

Yes, as subsidy of US agriculture. You produce food and give it away, it creates US jobs.

So what? it's still aid. it still saves lives.

Don't dismiss our aid because you find it inconvenient to your unjustified sense of moral superiority.

Thats decent and very nice but its not foreign AID, that carrier shouldnt have been there in the first place.

No, that is aid... that's fresh drinking water. That carrier was in Japan I think as part of the pacific defense fleet.

WHICH SHOULD be there... the japanese and SK would be very unhappy if it weren't.

And we deployed it to save lives after the disaster.


Don't like it? Close your eyes and chant. I'm getting really rather upset by your arrogance and consistent dismissal of anything we do as "unworthy".


It's not right.

And most of those cash are used INSIDE the US.
And you forget that Europeans do exactly the same thing, we also have charity, dont forget that.

Not the cash that goes to international organizations and those donations are HUGE.
.

 

[Karmashock]

Lies, except GM food, because Euroe is against that.
US R&D is bigger than Europe, but ours is increasing faster than the US.

No, that's a fact. Europe spends very little on RnD and so does japan. I can look it up for you if you like.


I suggest you do as well. As to euro spending increasing faster then US spending... so what? Mexico's economy is growing faster then the US's is... who has a better economy? It's easy for your percentage to increase when your base figures are low.

A majority of new medicine comes not from the US, it comes from Europe and the US. Its about equal, European pharma and medical indsutry is bigger than that of the US if you count Switzerland.

No it not, most of the big european drug makers relocated to the US as you socialized medicine.

New technology, thats a lie, its ONLY in software technology the US leads. Also, Linux, the future of software is Finnish. Most new technology come from all around the world.
Bio tech, yes, you have a lead.. Europe shys GM.

No we have it in hardware as well... and as to linux while it was invented in europe it's not being developed and enhanced there. Look up the main makers of linux distros. Most of them are american.

Telecom is owned by Europe. Chemicals is owned by Europe, Mechanics is owned by Europe, engineering is owned by Europe, automotive industries owned by Europe. Countless other things. Europe and the US are both great in their things.

I know you have good companies in all of those fields... but I wouldn't say you own them. Cite an example.

Patents are well and good in almost all ways, except software and nanopatents which are ridiculous and destroys the industries.

convenient that you would be against patients in an area your economies are weak.... little too convenient.

How come open source software is the most innovative then? I promise you that the countries who dont give a **** about patents and such petty issues are the ones who will lead the world in technology in the future.
They can copy anything, they can reinvent and freely develop, technologies of theirs can be improved by others instead of standing still as monopolies.

You'll never get ahead by ripping off inventors.


Again, look at russia and china... what are they inventing? And why is it that your software is lagging behind? respect the creators or they won't create.

Whatever you think, you are not moving west, the US is completely dependant on the EU. I can say the same way that the EU is moving east, but its not, the EU is completely dependant on the US. This will be so for hundreds of years.

I disagree. We are moving west. Our confidence has been shaken and steps have to be taken to fix that.

Of course we will come to your aid if you need US, just ask our permission first and get it, then we will help. If you go against our will we will not help you obviously. You could have done much greater in Iraq with massive European help. France alone would have helped you carry Iraq to victory, not just because they have a decent military but also because they are well respected in the middle east and across the globe.

No, it's more then that... too much as been said... and you've spent too little on your militarys to be of any use anyway. This isn't just my opinion. This is the opinion of the Pentagon.

Asia will do nothing for you, except exploit you and then kick you in your balls when they dont need you anymore.
Its more likely that Asia will have conflicts with the US than help them. Where are all the Asian nations in Iraq? Japan, yes, but the rest?

we're getting much the same treatement from much of europe currently... so I don't see how you're more attractive. We're looking for people who aren't afraid to fight. We have to make plans elsewhere.

As long as we can trust you, you can trust us.
France didnt burn any bridges, the US did that.

predictably we disagree. France said that if we went to the UN they would support us. The french told Colin Powell that they just wanted to try diplomacy first. Then they turned around and said that under NO circumstances would they support war.


Bridges burned.

Crossed the line with what? Not going to your silly Iraq war.. Guess who was right? Look at Iraq now and tell me France was wrong... Your war, your mess.

what? because it's hard you were right about not going? this is what I'm tlaking about. if it isn't all cake and wine you bail on us. we don't want fair weather friends. People that will support us so long as the sun is out and birds are singing.


We want friends that we can count on when the sun goes down and the wolves are scratching at the door. Those are REAL friends.

The EU already allies with Russia in some way, and we have a healthy relationship with China, more trade with China than the US have with China for example.

yeah, the russians will be fun what with their restarting the cold war...
ve voted for the first option.

I live in Ireland right now, I like the Irish, but I am moving back to the mainland, Ireland is too Isolated.. We made them rich, thats about it, now they are ours.

German tax dollars at work. But other countries have gotten that treatment and not done so well. You have to admit the Irish made the best of it.

I didnt know there was such huge differences. Whats the highest tax burdon in the US if you include federal and state taxes.

Hmmm... between 60 and 70 percent. That's including federal, state, county, and city tax.

That would probably only be in New York City though... and only the highest bracket.

Yes, but European incomes in some countries are the highest in the world, yet in the same "country(Europe)" you can hire high skilled workers at 150€ a month.

Wait, just because you have the highest minimum wage doesn't mean you have the highest wages.


US minimum is something like 7.50 an hour... but I don't know anyone that's ever made that little. Illegal immigrants in LA often do better then that and they don't even speak english.

its a shame. Now toyota is taking first place ahead of GM. American carmakers are shadows of their former selves.

The unions did it... and GM did it to itself by not having the will to survive. I don't respect that. You have to claw and scratch your way through life some times... if you can't do that then just die already.

I don't believe in bailing out big companies... they need to stand on their own two feet and do what they need to survive or die.

American auto industry is in crisis, its falling apart quicker than it was created.

It's not all that bad... but it can't take many more years of this. I think what GM is waiting for is for it's old employees to finally die. They all have these sweetheart union pensions... it makes up something like 30 or 40 percent of annual spending at GM... that would kill any company. You see a similiar thing at United Airlines... the company "was" owned by the employees... they voted to give themselves raises... result? Bankruptsy... so the company is now owned by creditors. Respect the dollar.

The Netherlands, 3.5%, thats 16 million people living there. Denmark 3.4%. Certain areas of other countries have low unemployment as well, like Bavaria in Germany. I dont know much about the region unempoloyment, but its very low in some areas, and incredibly high in others.

How is unemployment defined in those countries? Because I know you have a lot of people on welfare in many european countries.

Did I ever say that?

In the poll did you vote for the first the second or the third option? Because if that's not what you said then you shouldn't have voted for the first option

==================================================

I'd just like to add, I question your open mindedness when I see things like this:

I am American, I am stupid, but my ways of manipulating in a debate to make America look good is stunningly clever. I dont really know a whole lot, but I always win the debates because I end up calling names or debating something that is completely irrelevant.
Hail Bush, you are my leader and I will follow you in anything.

Not very diplomatic of you is it? Doesn't really convey the wisdom of an ancient and more 'learned' society removed from all the petty name calling and taunting... Does it?


I'd ask you think about that... and as usual... remind you that your $hit stinks just like the rest of us.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

I think it's getting alot of pride into this issue and I think what is needed is some trustworthy statistics that would be easy to find if people was not as lazy as I am right know.

But still I will like to claim that European in general knows more about USA and the rest of the world the Americans knows about EU and the rest of the worlds.

Let's start with American movies and tv programs of course they don't give the full pictures like they miss important details and also scew things like for example that Americans are more religius then you can belive from only watching American movies and tv programs. But still:

First the truly show that Americans are not stereotypes in a very concrete and strong they. That Americans consist of extreme variaty of diffrent kinds of people with diffrent beliefs, interest and lifes. Compared to watch the general american (or swedish or any other countrys) movies about the french, the japanese the iranies they you much more get a stereotyped picture.

It is also in a concrete way show the large diffrence and likenes between USA and european countries. That their are cultural diffrences, diffrent values, belifes and lifes. But also cultural similarities and that we share the same basic human emotions.

It also educates about American. As I already said not the entire pictures and it's important to have a critical wiev but still alot of information. About politics, daily life work and past time activies, beliefs etc.

Also I think European travel much more the American. Both as tourist but also for longer period. Of course their are diffrence between european countries. But like for example as a Swed you almost certainly been visiting different european countries. It is also very common that you been outside europe maybee only to Tunisia but in many case farther away like USA, Asian countries or Australia. Also it's very common to have study abroad or being an au pair. This first hand experience both create an understanding of other countries and the cultural diffrences but also an interst to learn more about other countries.

Also I think it's much more common for European media to have news about USA and the rest of the world and also that it's not that focused on the national intrest (even if it in some degree is that). Ecpecially if you are from a smal country like Sweden. We would almost certianly get bored if we only filled the media with national news also I belive that you are from a smal country it's a bigger intreset and percieved need to learn about the rest of the world.

 

[ARealConservative]

New technology, thats a lie, its ONLY in software technology the US leads. Also, Linux, the future of software is Finnish.

The delusion is hysterical.

Yes - Linxu came from elsewhere. But who exactly is leading the way in porting linux to the business community? Open source developers in America primarily (including myself).

And just to let you know - Linux isn't revolutionary in the least. It was derived from Unix - which was created by some people working for Bell Labs (from America of course). Copying existing technology and porting it to a dferent platform isn't high tech.

But Hey - I think it's great that you have pride in your region. We do to.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

No, that's a fact. Europe spends very little on RnD and so does japan. I can look it up for you if you like.

Europe dont spend very little on R&D, we spend about 1/4th less than the US at the moment, and our spending is increasing faster.

No it not, most of the big european drug makers relocated to the US as you socialized medicine.

Well many American companies reside in Europe as well, that doesnt mean they are not American. If you count switzerland, European medical and pharma industry is larger than the US, and MOST new stuff comes from Europe.

No we have it in hardware as well... and as to linux while it was invented in europe it's not being developed and enhanced there. Look up the main makers of linux distros. Most of them are american.

Most big ones yes, Red hat is American.. SuSE for example is Germany, but sold to Novell, an American company. Linux is very international, but originates in Finland. Personally I use KDE dektop which is German made, I use Slackware, which is German-American, and the Kernel is finish based but incredibly international. Open source is no doubt the future., and not just in software.

Hardware, uhm, kind of no.. Computer hardware, yes, perhaps. Its all made in taiwan and China.. The only real thing you can brag about in that context is Intel and AMD, ati and NVidia who are large chipmakers. Europe also have 3 large chipmakers, but its for mobile equipment, not dektops and laptops. No matter if its European or American, its all made in Asia.

I know you have good companies in all of those fields... but I wouldn't say you own them. Cite an example.

We have all the most prestigious car makers for example in all genres, especially Luxury cars and sport cars. We dominate motor sports. Personally I watch formula 1 as being the ultimate of machines, and the ones who dominate formula 1 is the best engineers. Thats currently Ferrari and Renault. I would like to see Porsche in F1.

convenient that you would be against patients in an area your economies are weak.... little too convenient.

It is damaging, they are patenting everything in the computer industry, in the end it will lead to no one being able to develop anything new without paying lisences.

How ridiculous is it to patent nano-carbon tubes? That shouldnt be legal, its absurd. Thats like patenting the letter K.

You'll never get ahead by ripping off inventors.

Nor will you get anhywhere in an industry of patents. Linux is an example of this. innovation in Linux is far greater than in Microsoft or Mac. Its open and its free, thats why. Society need to learn from open source. Benefit for humanity not just profits. Development will accelerate without patents.
we're getting much the same treatement from much of europe currently... so I don't see how you're more attractive. We're looking for people who aren't afraid to fight. We have to make plans elsewhere.

predictably we disagree. France said that if we went to the UN they would support us. The french told Colin Powell that they just wanted to try diplomacy first. Then they turned around and said that under NO circumstances would they support war

What do you expect? us to follow you into things we dont agree with, and that we know and now have proven is failed.

what? because it's hard you were right about not going? this is what I'm tlaking about. if it isn't all cake and wine you bail on us. we don't want fair weather friends. People that will support us so long as the sun is out and birds are singing.

We support you as long as the cause is worthy.

We want friends that we can count on when the sun goes down and the wolves are scratching at the door. Those are REAL friends.

Then you have no friends, no one wil follow you blindly.
I am sure Europe would help out in Iraq if the US admitted the mistake of going there, take a less agressive stand, and closer cooperating with Europe in issues that matters. If you then asked i am sure Europe would help the US in restoring order in Iraq for the withdrawal of western interferance.

German tax dollars at work. But other countries have gotten that treatment and not done so well. You have to admit the Irish made the best of it.

Thats going on in all of eastern Europe now.

Hmmm... between 60 and 70 percent. That's including federal, state, county, and city tax.

Wow.. Whats the highest average tax burdon? In Europe its Sweden and Belgium at around 50%.

Wait, just because you have the highest minimum wage doesn't mean you have the highest wages.

Thats not what I said. But pay in large European cities can be the highest in the world in most sectors.

US minimum is something like 7.50 an hour... but I don't know anyone that's ever made that little. Illegal immigrants in LA often do better then that and they don't even speak english.

Florida minimum is 5.6$ an hour. In Germany and France for example the minimum is over 10€ an hour or 12.5$, i can imagine its the same in the UK at least among others.

It's not all that bad... but it can't take many more years of this. I think what GM is waiting for is for it's old employees to finally die. They all have these sweetheart union pensions... it makes up something like 30 or 40 percent of annual spending at GM... that would kill any company. You see a similiar thing at United Airlines... the company "was" owned by the employees... they voted to give themselves raises... result? Bankruptsy... so the company is now owned by creditors. Respect the dollar.

I know, its madness. And you say European labor protectionist policies are strict. That stuff you mention is like France.

How is unemployment defined in those countries? Because I know you have a lot of people on welfare in many european countries.

People on benefits are counted as unemployment, unless its cripple benefit or something like that. The standard is now the same in all of Europe, i dont know how exactly it goes.

I'd just like to add, I question your open mindedness when I see things like this:

Not very diplomatic of you is it? Doesn't really convey the wisdom of an ancient and more 'learned' society removed from all the petty name calling and taunting... Does it?

I'd ask you think about that... and as usual... remind you that your $hit stinks just like the rest of us.

I am aware of this, fully aware. Its just a response to some Americans on this forum who use those methods to debate. Its getting on my nerves and making me angry. I shouldnt be affected and get angry but I am. I was really wanting to leave this forum for awhile, but i didnt, so i have to pay the price of taking these peoples idiocy.

 

[Karmashock]

I think it's getting alot of pride into this issue and I think what is needed is some trustworthy statistics that would be easy to find if people was not as lazy as I am right know.

But still I will like to claim that European in general knows more about USA and the rest of the world the Americans knows about EU and the rest of the worlds.

Let's start with American movies and tv programs of course they don't give the full pictures like they miss important details and also scew things like for example that Americans are more religius then you can belive from only watching American movies and tv programs. But still:

Not still, you cannot base your belief that you know more about americans because you watch our tv. I am not a damn television program.

I don't have super powers, cannot cast magical spells, don't shoot people on a regular basis, and have never once traveled at warp speed.


Just no.

First the truly show that Americans are not stereotypes in a very concrete and strong they. That Americans consist of extreme variaty of diffrent kinds of people with diffrent beliefs, interest and lifes. Compared to watch the general american (or swedish or any other countrys) movies about the french, the japanese the iranies they you much more get a stereotyped picture.

That just shows our tv is more professional. Ultimately every person in a tv show is a CHARACTER created by a WRITER in a SCRIPT for a SHOW to get RATINGS to sell AD TIME.

That will not generate an accurate image of America. Don't you understand, tv is used to ESCAPE from reality. So it's not going to have much to DO with reality.

Also I think European travel much more the American. Both as tourist but also for longer period. Of course their are diffrence between european countries. But like for example as a Swed you almost certainly been visiting different european countries. It is also very common that you been outside europe maybee only to Tunisia but in many case farther away like USA, Asian countries or Australia. Also it's very common to have study abroad or being an au pair. This first hand experience both create an understanding of other countries and the cultural diffrences but also an interst to learn more about other countries.

Americans can make the same claim. Again, I think traveling to a nearby european country is no more enlightening then traveling to a different part of the US. There is just as much diversity in the US as their is in all of Europe.

As to traveling outside of europe... most americans visit mexico in their life... that's about the same distinction again... and as to studying abroad... we do that often as well... typically in Europe in fact.


Don't claim superiority. you haven't got it. You're no more informed or wise then we are... you've just got different blind spots.

Also I think it's much more common for European media to have news about USA and the rest of the world and also that it's not that focused on the national intrest (even if it in some degree is that). Ecpecially if you are from a smal country like Sweden. We would almost certianly get bored if we only filled the media with national news also I belive that you are from a smal country it's a bigger intreset and percieved need to learn about the rest of the world.

We watch other countries when do interesting things.

The people of the world are not a monolithic group. They are a great collection of individual countries... and generally they don't know any more about each other then we do about them. That's the world.


You want to believe in the myth of a stupid america? Fine... convince yourself of that while we continue to push the bounds of science, generate more per captia then anyone on earth that doesn't own a huge amounts of oil... and entertains the world... even though we're ridiculed all the way.


I'm tired of my country being a scape goat... we're not perfect... we make mistakes... but we don't deserve this crap.
==============================================

Well many American companies reside in Europe as well, that doesnt mean they are not American. If you count switzerland, European medical and pharma industry is larger than the US, and MOST new stuff comes from Europe.

if you relocate all your RnD to another country then who's inventing it?


and multinationals aren't really the members of any country... most are happy to relocate at the drop of a hat over anything from tax practices or accounting regulation.

Most big ones yes, Red hat is American.. SuSE for example is Germany, but sold to Novell, an American company. Linux is very international, but originates in Finland. Personally I use KDE dektop which is German made, I use Slackware, which is German-American, and the Kernel is finish based but incredibly international. Open source is no doubt the future., and not just in software.

For somethings perhaps... but it will never beat pay software. You don't get the same kind of quality especially in high end business aps... And I'd not that SuSE isn't free.

Hardware, uhm, kind of no.. Computer hardware, yes, perhaps. Its all made in taiwan and China.. The only real thing you can brag about in that context is Intel and AMD, ati and NVidia who are large chipmakers. Europe also have 3 large chipmakers, but its for mobile equipment, not dektops and laptops. No matter if its European or American, its all made in Asia.

Everything is made in china because it's CHEAP. We made the damn plans first.


They make BMW's in China too... who invented BMW? Don't be ridiculous.

We have all the most prestigious car makers for example in all genres, especially Luxury cars and sport cars. We dominate motor sports. Personally I watch formula 1 as being the ultimate of machines, and the ones who dominate formula 1 is the best engineers. Thats currently Ferrari and Renault. I would like to see Porsche in F1.

That's more a question of economics then it is engineering. Ford beat Farrari back in the old days with no petegrie in sports cars... really only because Farrari pissed Ford off... I think Ford won F1 four or five years in a row over that.


After making their point however they didn't make much effort. What you're saying is a little like saying you have better athletes because you have a better soccer team... ignoring the fact that US doesn't care about soccer.

It is damaging, they are patenting everything in the computer industry, in the end it will lead to no one being able to develop anything new without paying lisences.

Everything isn't being patented...

How ridiculous is it to patent nano-carbon tubes? That shouldnt be legal, its absurd. Thats like patenting the letter K.

I don't think anyone patiented them... I think they patiented a process for making them. What's more worst case they have patient for 14 years.

Nor will you get anhywhere in an industry of patents. Linux is an example of this. innovation in Linux is far greater than in Microsoft or Mac. Its open and its free, thats why. Society need to learn from open source. Benefit for humanity not just profits. Development will accelerate without patents.
we're getting much the same treatement from much of europe currently... so I don't see how you're more attractive. We're looking for people who aren't afraid to fight. We have to make plans elsewhere.

You ride that... see what not paying people for their work gets you.

What do you expect? us to follow you into things we dont agree with, and that we know and now have proven is failed.


We support you as long as the cause is worthy.

no, just don't lie to us and say that you'll consider supporting the a war if we go the diplomatic road and then turn around once we've committed to it and back stab us... it's something we'll remember... for a long time... a long long long time.

Then you have no friends, no one wil follow you blindly.
I am sure Europe would help out in Iraq if the US admitted the mistake of going there, take a less agressive stand, and closer cooperating with Europe in issues that matters. If you then asked i am sure Europe would help the US in restoring order in Iraq for the withdrawal of western interferance.

Better no friends at all then bad friends.


and America won't put on a coller and be europe's bitch as you seem to think we should be... I still can't believe the astounding arrogance of saying we should be your brawn and you our brain.

HOW DARE YOU!

Wow.. Whats the highest average tax burdon? In Europe its Sweden and Belgium at around 50%.

I'm including all the taxes including sales tax etc in that... Euro taxes at the top can get as high as 80 percent effective.

Thats not what I said. But pay in large European cities can be the highest in the world in most sectors.

Not under PPP.

Florida minimum is 5.6$ an hour. In Germany and France for example the minimum is over 10€ an hour or 12.5$, i can imagine its the same in the UK at least among others.

When were you last in florida?

I know, its madness. And you say European labor protectionist policies are strict. That stuff you mention is like France.

Nah... nothing like paris... I've seen the union riots in the paper and I've seen hte politicians bend to that mob. Our politicians are more insulated from that.

People on benefits are counted as unemployment, unless its cripple benefit or something like that. The standard is now the same in all of Europe, i dont know how exactly it goes.

I just looked up a few european countries... France has an unemployment rate of 9 percent and germany has one of 7 percent... I don't know where you're getting your other figures... but they're not checking with any of my sources.

I am aware of this, fully aware. Its just a response to some Americans on this forum who use those methods to debate. Its getting on my nerves and making me angry. I shouldnt be affected and get angry but I am. I was really wanting to leave this forum for awhile, but i didnt, so i have to pay the price of taking these peoples idiocy.

You can't blame that sort of thing on other people. YOU did that. YOU have to own it. They could after all just say that they were only mean to you because of something YOU said. Would that be fair? Of course not. You're responsible for yourself.

 

[Karmashock]

Oh and just to prove that Europeans bash and name call just like the americans:

'Liar','disgraceful': French campaign turns nasty


I see this sort of thing all the time... This is a new article today that came off the AP. I expect that's a valid news source...

 

[Gardener]

I ........have never once traveled at warp speed.


.

Ah -- an old-fashioned fellow who still prefers travelling at impulse.

 

[Karmashock]

Ah -- an old-fashioned fellow who still prefers travelling at impulse.

I wish, like most of humanity I've never broken the damn sound barrier...:doh

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

uh oh Red Dave... Now you are in trouble. You will be braded anti American because you said the governor of NY is insignificant. (in your position)
The Americans here will prove to you how she is significant and how good the US is and how bad England is.

Beware..

Max, please reread RedDave's post and notice something. His post gives a great example of how to say something, that could be construed as negative towards America (though I wouldn't) and yet doesn't bash America or Americans. Try to learn from it.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Max, please reread RedDave's post and notice something. His post gives a great example of how to say something, that could be construed as negative towards America (though I wouldn't) and yet doesn't bash America or Americans. Try to learn from it.

I dont give a **** man.. I dont care about you Americans oversensitivity about the US, that just doesnt change the fact that Bush is a retard, your current government a bunch of loosers and your foreign policies a complete ****ing failure.

If you think thats anti-America, then I just done give a ****, because its all true.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

For somethings perhaps... but it will never beat pay software. You don't get the same kind of quality especially in high end business aps... And I'd not that SuSE isn't free.

For something? Base system, system integrity, system security, system methods, librariers, diversity, stability, configurability.. I dont know one thing thats better about Microsoft OS than Linux OS, except that they have more manufacture made drivers and programs that only works on Windows XX, but thats changing. The only advantage Microsoft and their miserable OS had an advantage in is quickly dissappearing.

SuSE as many commercial Linux distribution versions exist both as a free OS and a pay version(with some extra stuff in it).
Free software beats pay software by far, the only reason you think otherwise is because you only tried pay software.

Not only that but when I install Linux I have by default a desktop and a server machine. Now how practical is that?

Everything is made in china because it's CHEAP. We made the damn plans first.

Thats what I say.. If you believe patents will stop China from figuring out what the secrets of Intel are, then you are completely wrong. And in 20 years intel will just be a tiny chipmaker ina market dominated by the Chinese who have rapid development due to no patants, and Intel just cannot follow.

They make BMW's in China too... who invented BMW? Don't be ridiculous.

BMW is assembled and made in Germany, Munich and about 20 other German cities, 2 English cities and now looking to start one factory in China. Hardly made in China that.

That's more a question of economics then it is engineering. Ford beat Farrari back in the old days with no petegrie in sports cars... really only because Farrari pissed Ford off... I think Ford won F1 four or five years in a row over that.

Ford is now known as a crap car in most of Europe, people who are not poor, shy buying Fords.

After making their point however they didn't make much effort. What you're saying is a little like saying you have better athletes because you have a better soccer team... ignoring the fact that US doesn't care about soccer.

Well, European car makers dominate every motor sport except Nascar.. Now, I dont want to be rude to Nascar, but what a ridiculous car sport, round and round and round 1000 laps. How exciting.. Awful motorsport that.

Everything isn't being patented...

Yes it is.. Did you know Microsoft is patenting RSS? Its a widely used technology on the net, and Microsoft had nothing to do with inventing it.

I don't think anyone patiented them... I think they patiented a process for making them. What's more worst case they have patient for 14 years.

14 years in the nanoworld is enough to effectivly stop any rapid development. What if everything that is discovered is patented, and each company around the world sit with one or two patents of nanotech, and the progress completely stops because of it.?
Nanotech needs to be based on the open source principle.

You ride that... see what not paying people for their work gets you.

It gets you a 100 companies who make their living off an OS that is far superior to the overcharged 500 bucks Microsoft OS that is just updated every 5 or so years..
Now, whats the change between Windows 98 and Windows Vista?

The theme and colours....
They drastically started upgrading the themes after Windows2000, you see huge changes in themes form 2000-XP-Vista.

no, just don't lie to us and say that you'll consider supporting the a war if we go the diplomatic road and then turn around once we've committed to it and back stab us... it's something we'll remember... for a long time... a long long long time.

If you beg France to come and help you our of your mess in Iraq, I am sure they will..

and America won't put on a coller and be europe's bitch as you seem to think we should be... I still can't believe the astounding arrogance of saying we should be your brawn and you our brain.

HOW DARE YOU!

Judging by world events the last 10-15 years, thats how it will have to be..
Judging by the leader you have choosen, that feeling is enhanced.
Judging by your current course in foreign affairs, its just the way it must be.

I'm including all the taxes including sales tax etc in that... Euro taxes at the top can get as high as 80 percent effective.

Yes, it depends on income.. But the average tax burdon... The average tax burdon is highest in Belgium and Sweden at just over 50% each.

You can't blame that sort of thing on other people. YOU did that. YOU have to own it. They could after all just say that they were only mean to you because of something YOU said. Would that be fair? Of course not. You're responsible for yourself.

Ohh yes, but you see, I have French blood in my veins also, so I can be quite a snobbish and arrogant bastard at times, especially if provoked, almost like Parisians, eyh?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I dont give a **** man.. I dont care about you Americans oversensitivity about the US, that just doesnt change the fact that Bush is a retard, your current government a bunch of loosers and your foreign policies a complete ****ing failure.

If you think thats anti-America, then I just done give a ****, because its all true.

Temper, temper. You really need to look at the responsibility of your words. I don't necessarily consider your words, above anti-American; there is a difference between criticism and bashing. Criticism would be, 'Bush is a retard'. Now it would be nice if you posted some reasons why you believe this as it would help you with credibility, but, nonetheless, it's only criticism. Bashing would be, 'Americans are retarded because the follow along with that retard, Bush'. This is an overgeneralizing, insulting statement to all Americans. When you make comments like this: 'Thats our role, we be the brain, America the muscle', you are condescending and bashing towards the US.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

For something? Base system, system integrity, system security, system methods, librariers, diversity, stability, configurability.. I dont know one thing thats better about Microsoft OS than Linux OS, except that they have more manufacture made drivers and programs that only works on Windows XX, but thats changing. The only advantage Microsoft and their miserable OS had an advantage in is quickly dissappearing.

SuSE as many commercial Linux distribution versions exist both as a free OS and a pay version(with some extra stuff in it).
Free software beats pay software by far, the only reason you think otherwise is because you only tried pay software.

Not only that but when I install Linux I have by default a desktop and a server machine. Now how practical is that?

A couple of things about this. I use both Windows and Linux. All you say is interesting, true, and irrelevant. It is the ease of use of Windows that, currently creates an environment where Linux cannot overtake it. linux requires too much user intervention. Also because such a large percentage of computers are Windows-based and documents are not interchangable with Linux systems, switching would not be cost effective.

Ford is now known as a crap car in most of Europe, people who are not poor, shy buying Fords.

Perhaps in Europe. Speaking for myself, I've had a Volvo, Nissan, Subaru, and a Ford. The Ford was BY FAR the best of the four.

Well, European car makers dominate every motor sport except Nascar.. Now, I dont want to be rude to Nascar, but what a ridiculous car sport, round and round and round 1000 laps. How exciting.. Awful motorsport that.

To each his own. BTW, do you see the contradiction in your statement? Watch this:

Now, I dont want to be rude to Nascar, but what a ridiculous car sport

Don't want to be rude...:roll:

Judging by world events the last 10-15 years, thats how it will have to be..
Judging by the leader you have choosen, that feeling is enhanced.
Judging by your current course in foreign affairs, its just the way it must be.

Nope. Karmashock was right. As was I. It was a condescending bash. You assume that the US does not engage in diplomacy nor is intelligent enough to do so. Totally false statements.

Ohh yes, but you see, I have French blood in my veins also, so I can be quite a snobbish and arrogant bastard at times, especially if provoked, almost like Parisians, eyh?

Then remember the old proverb (which I think I'm paraphrasing): You will reap what you sow. Signatures like that only enhance the perception that others see in you. If, as you claim, you do not dislike American or Americans, remove it. Not a mod suggestion...a fellow poster suggestion to keep in line with what you profess.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Bashing would be, 'Americans are retarded because the follow along with that retard, Bush'. This is an overgeneralizing, insulting statement to all Americans. When you make comments like this: 'Thats our role, we be the brain, America the muscle', you are condescending and bashing towards the US.

I never said that, I did however say that I dont like the people who voted for Bush and that something MUST be wrong with them for reelecting him.

About "we be the brain and you the muscle" was just a description of how an optimal relationship between the US and Europe needs to be in foreign policy. Its relation is based and judged on the current situation. Nothing condescending about it.. I am not saying Americans are bad at foreign policy, I am saying your government sucks at it.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I never said that, I did however say that I dont like the people who voted for Bush and that something MUST be wrong with them for reelecting him.

I know you never said that. It was more of an example of the difference between criticism and bashing.

About "we be the brain and you the muscle" was just a description of how an optimal relationship between the US and Europe needs to be in foreign policy. Its relation is based and judged on the current situation. Nothing condescending about it.. I am not saying Americans are bad at foreign policy, I am saying your government sucks at it.

Well, I don't agree about the comment. It was arrogant and condescending. When someone says, 'I'm the brain, you're the brawn', the insinuation that 'I'm smart, you're not' is pretty clear. Perhaps this was not your intention, but it is how it came across.

I said this once before, on a thread we went round and round on, though less contentiously. I'm wondering if there is a language barrier here that we are not noticing. If your intention is not to bash America, yet so many perceive your posts as such, maybe language is the issue. Is English your first language?