Are Americans really that ignorant to the world?

[jfuh]

Are we American's really that ignorant about the rest of the world? Are we really that isolated in our bubble of oceans east and west and weak friendly nations north and south?
I want to put this to a question. And want to raise this additional concern. Is the rest of the world really that much more knowing of American or is your knowledge just as superficial and of the same stereotypes.
Our European counterparts on this forum seem to make certain baseless assumptions about our country where as their nations are the bases of many of our crack jokes.

As for the far east, or by American standards the far west, there are only but a handful of members here that seem to have any expressed interest.

So I call for a battle of wits. W/o googling a challenge between the old world and new world to see who's the more ignorant or resonating of more stereotypes than factual instances.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Re: Are American's really that ignorant to the world?

Are we American's really that ignorant about the rest of the world? Are we really that isolated in our bubble of oceans east and west and weak friendly nations north and south?
I

Clearly, judging by world opinions you are, and you live in some kind of bubble. The real question is if America is in some kind of massive conspiracy, it can seem to outsiders that many Americans are brainwashed in some degree. Its always a big relief to see Americans who question their governments action instead of blindly following it, its a relief to see Americans who are critical thinkers and can think for themself instead of taking everything they are fed as "facts" or "the right opinion".

Something massive is going on in the US, and its not that good, especially from an outside perspective, unfortunately. It might be due to the shock of 911, that most of the US population is in shock. most of the world was in shock when the US population voted Bush for a second term.

 

[jfuh]

Re: Are American's really that ignorant to the world?

Clearly, judging by world opinions you are, and you live in some kind of bubble. The real question is if America is in some kind of massive conspiracy, it can seem to outsiders that many Americans are brainwashed in some degree. Its always a big relief to see Americans who question their governments action instead of blindly following it, its a relief to see Americans who are critical thinkers and can think for themself instead of taking everything they are fed as "facts" or "the right opinion".

Something massive is going on in the US, and its not that good, especially from an outside perspective, unfortunately. It might be due to the shock of 911, that most of the US population is in shock. most of the world was in shock when the US population voted Bush for a second term.

You really need to seperate out your own bias from objective analysis. World opinion is not a proof of anything. World opinion also states that French are snobbish really has no merit without proof.The basis of this thread is to find objective reasoning and basis for "ignorance".

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Re: Are American's really that ignorant to the world?

Clearly, judging by world opinions you are, and you live in some kind of bubble. The real question is if America is in some kind of massive conspiracy, it can seem to outsiders that many Americans are brainwashed in some degree. Its always a big relief to see Americans who question their governments action instead of blindly following it, its a relief to see Americans who are critical thinkers and can think for themself instead of taking everything they are fed as "facts" or "the right opinion".

Something massive is going on in the US, and its not that good, especially from an outside perspective, unfortunately. It might be due to the shock of 911, that most of the US population is in shock. most of the world was in shock when the US population voted Bush for a second term.

Actually if you read the book, "The Right Nation" you will realise just how ignorant of the rest of the World is of US culture.

Consider this. Most moderate Democrats or blue collar Democrat would be Centre-Right, or the equivalant of the Liberal Party of Australia, or the British Conservative Party (Except on the issue of the Iraq war). America has a stronger emphisis on individual rights and private enterprise. If you look at the British Conservative Party or the CDU those parties would seem like the Democrats to most American voters.

Secondly if you asked many people outside of the U.S what is the electoral collage, very view people would be able to tell you. Yet the electoral collage is fundemental in understanding why U.S presidents Democrat or Republican get into power.

America as a nation is fundementally more supportive of the capitalist model, and individual liberties than any European nation. Sure you have Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians etc. But the culture of the U.S is fundementally different to that of Europe. That is why Europe will never understand America. The closest America has to cultural relatives would have to be Canada, and Australia. Britain even though it more supportive of capitalism (relative to Europe) still has many different cultural differences to the U.S. Considering that Canada and Australia are still very different to America in so many ways. I think that the only conclusion that I can come to is the U.S is a very unique country, in its outlook, culture and history.

 

[PeteEU]

Are we American's really that ignorant about the rest of the world?

They are. Hell quite a few Americans are ignorant of their own country.. depends on education, social standing and where that person is from in the US. Saying that, some Europeans are not much better, but it as always depends on who and where said person comes from.

Are we really that isolated in our bubble of oceans east and west and weak friendly nations north and south?

You are. 9/11 showed this. Even to this day, the US view on the Palestine-Isreal situation shows its isolation, politically, mediawise and socially. The US claims to be multi cultural melting pot, but its policies and attitudes to a large part of the planets population does not reflect this.

Is the rest of the world really that much more knowing of American or is your knowledge just as superficial and of the same stereotypes.

It is in part. The view of America is often based on movies, tv and the news. As the news is mostly "negative", as in it shows more about the post man going nuts, than the charity work or what not, then the view will automatically be more negative. On top of that comes the violence in US movies and TV, and the sterotypes in said tv and movies.

Now this view will always be superficial. However on top of that, there are some differences in opinions between the US and many other nations. This ranges form the role of goverment, over to personal liberity, to politicial definitions and so on. These differences often cause quite a bit of problems when debating, and are often the whole debate in itself.

On top of that there the superiority complex many Americans have towards other nations and peoples... they know best, are the best bla bla bla.. that is extremly disrespectfull and arrogant. Debates on WW2 for example.

Saying that, Americans view of Europe is often totaly warped and out of touch with reality, and often based on some deep seeded hatred towards certain countries. This is clear, especially on these boards.

Our European counterparts on this forum seem to make certain baseless assumptions about our country where as their nations are the bases of many of our crack jokes.

What baseless assumptions?

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

You are(in a bubble). 9/11 showed this. Even to this day, the US view on the Palestine-Isreal situation shows its isolation, politically, mediawise and socially. The US claims to be multi cultural melting pot, but its policies and attitudes to a large part of the planets population does not reflect this.

911 didnt SHOW that, it either STARTED or ENHANCED that.

It is in part. The view of America is often based on movies, tv and the news. As the news is mostly "negative", as in it shows more about the post man going nuts, than the charity work or what not, then the view will automatically be more negative. On top of that comes the violence in US movies and TV, and the sterotypes in said tv and movies.

Thats a very stereotypical view of how people see America. Most people however are realistic and dont draw uncessesary conclutions from fiction movies. Movies are how America wants to be seen, not how people see it.

Personally I base my views on a massive amounts of things, where the most important things are news, tv(the rest), reading about the US, magazines, books, STATISTICS and FACTS, talking to US people, visit in the US, other peoples opinion about the US, in addition to experiencing things you can compare it with(like doing the exact same things in Europe++)

 

[GarzaUK]

Re: Are American's really that ignorant to the world?

Actually if you read the book, "The Right Nation" you will realise just how ignorant of the rest of the World is of US culture.

I've read that book. Good read. The US is a conservative nation.

Consider this. Most moderate Democrats or blue collar Democrat would be Centre-Right, or the equivalant of the Liberal Party of Australia, or the British Conservative Party (Except on the issue of the Iraq war). America has a stronger emphisis on individual rights and private enterprise. If you look at the British Conservative Party or the CDU those parties would seem like the Democrats to most American voters.

Secondly if you asked many people outside of the U.S what is the electoral collage, very view people would be able to tell you. Yet the electoral collage is fundemental in understanding why U.S presidents Democrat or Republican get into power.

America as a nation is fundementally more supportive of the capitalist model, and individual liberties than any European nation. Sure you have Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians etc. But the culture of the U.S is fundementally different to that of Europe. That is why Europe will never understand America. The closest America has to cultural relatives would have to be Canada, and Australia. Britain even though it more supportive of capitalism (relative to Europe) still has many different cultural differences to the U.S. Considering that Canada and Australia are still very different to America in so many ways. I think that the only conclusion that I can come to is the U.S is a very unique country, in its outlook, culture and history.

Europe and Canada will never understand America and vice versa you are probably right.

America is exceptional as in does not view the world like the rest of the world does. Sometimes this is a good thing, but sometimes lack of understanding of culture or enemy can lead to bad things.

The problem is that Americans think that the rest of the world should think like them, have their values and live like them. And hence the problems start.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Re: Are American's really that ignorant to the world?

I've read that book. Good read. The US is a conservative nation.




Europe and Canada will never understand America and vice versa you are probably right.

America is exceptional as in does not view the world like the rest of the world does. Sometimes this is a good thing, but sometimes lack of understanding of culture or enemy can lead to bad things.

The problem is that Americans think that the rest of the world should think like them, have their values and live like them. And hence the problems start.

Every country has a unique look at the world, in Europe this can be summed up in a gernal way for all countries as they are pretty similar compared to other countries, the only continent close to having as many similar countries as Europe is South America, they might even be more similar. I dont think Europe and China for example have that much in common in how they view the world like you seem to imply. Nor do I think Europe and Africa, or China or Africa or any other countries have that much in common. Its certain that Russia and India have less in common than America and Europe. Its also certain that European and American views on the world are fairly similiar compared to variances between other continents.

The only difference is that America is very right-wing in general and that most countries, except those in Europe tend to be left of center. But the main difference is that America is conservative and Europe is now liberal, this is why Europe and America is so similar, yet so completely different.

 

[Synch]

You are. 9/11 showed this. Even to this day, the US view on the Palestine-Isreal situation shows its isolation, politically, mediawise and socially. The US claims to be multi cultural melting pot, but its policies and attitudes to a large part of the planets population does not reflect this.

The policies of our governments is meant to serve our people, not conform to the mob opinion of the world. If anything, the European view on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict shows how little they know about the nature of the conflict. Remember that poll in 03?

 

[Vader]

Re: Are American's really that ignorant to the world?

Clearly, judging by world opinions you are, and you live in some kind of bubble. The real question is if America is in some kind of massive conspiracy, it can seem to outsiders that many Americans are brainwashed in some degree. Its always a big relief to see Americans who question their governments action instead of blindly following it, its a relief to see Americans who are critical thinkers and can think for themself instead of taking everything they are fed as "facts" or "the right opinion".

Something massive is going on in the US, and its not that good, especially from an outside perspective, unfortunately. It might be due to the shock of 911, that most of the US population is in shock. most of the world was in shock when the US population voted Bush for a second term.

Clearly, you are cluless eurotrash who known nothing about what Americans know and/or how we live. As such, I would kindly ask you to SOD OFF.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Re: Are American's really that ignorant to the world?

Clearly, you are cluless eurotrash who known nothing about what Americans know and/or how we live. As such, I would kindly ask you to SOD OFF.

Yeah, of course I am, because you are God almighty, and everything you say is correct, even your judgment of other people. If you have nothing intelligent to say, and have to criticize other people for things you dont understand, then why dont you shut the **** up or get the **** out of here and become a kindergarten teacher or something.

You are the most ignorant piece of **** there is on the forum, so please, refrain from commenting any of my posts if you have nothing intelligent to input.

 

[Karmashock]

Americans don't know that much about the outside world but that's not anything special. The rest of the world doesn't know that much about itself either. Most people the world over only know their own country.


However, many foreigners think they understand the US because they've seen hollywood movies or american tv.


Movies and tv shows is not america. You might be able to learn english by watching those movies but you won't learn what it is to be an american anymore then I'll learn what it is to be an indian by watching bollywood films.



I've been to most of the US, canada, mexico, the caribbean, and about five countries in europe for varying amounts of time. I don't claim to know those countries but I did pick up some observations.

Those observations were things that I wouldn't not have picked up through the media and to this day have never seen even a hint of beyond my own experiences.



Americans are not ignorant... they've just got more responsibility as a nation then anyone else. So the world perhaps expects more of us. We are the world's only super power... and the sometimes defender of the free world... the champion of capitalism... the nation that put men on the moon.. etc.


and so people expect us to be nine foot tall golden gods... if we make a mistake it's more important for the world then if someone else makes a mistake.

So we're not allowed to make mistakes.



that's only a part of it... there is also the ever present envy issue which causes many people around the world to try and take america down a peg so they can look us in the eye.


this is partially healthy after all you don't want these people to have an inferiority complex... furthermore, we do need to get taken down a peg at times... Even I have ripped a massive fart and convinced myself it smelled like roses... when that happens it's a good to have people around you that will tell you that your **** does in fact stink.



What is however unfair is that many nations don't understand that the US is not running an empire. that is to say we only benifit indirectly from the global prosperity. Where we running things like an empire all nations would have to pay more to trade with each other but the US wouldn't have to pay anything to trade with them... that's an example of one form of trade empire. Which isn't what we're doing.


Something which is often underrated and misunderstood around the world is that the US is an extremely charitable nation... and much the things we do while helping us out are largely justified because they help others. The massive american war machine was largely maintained at this height to preserve world peace. That doesn't stop little wars from breaking out here and there but it does keep peace over all. The US in this sense serves as scarecrow for most of the small predators the world over. Our current problem is that we have a hard time dealing with predators consisting of one or even a dozen men... ie terrorists. But we're adapting... we're getting better... it just takes time.



anyway, I hope that answered some of the questions this thread was asking.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I just have to add that I think I know America based on many things, and I am sure this is valid for other people as well.

1. Having talked face to face with many Americans.
2. Having lived in the US(or alternatively been there awhile)
3. Having talked to people from the US in chats, forums online debates etc.
4. TV, movies etc.
5. News and actuality magazines
6. Reading and learning about the US in school and then later aquiring more information on all kind of sources.
7. Following US politics
8. Following US foreign policy
9. Following US domestic policy
10.Talking and debating the US in different ways with many different nationalities, especially in the different countries I have lived in.

I would humbly say that I know more about the US than many Amerians.

 

[WI Crippler]

I would humbly say that I know more about the US than many Amerians.

I don't know why, but this line makes me laugh :rofl

Not the fact you think you know more about America than Americans, but that you so humbly stated so.

Thanks for the little bit of humor Maximus :2wave:

 

[Red_Dave]

Are we American's really that ignorant about the rest of the world? Are we really that isolated in our bubble of oceans east and west and weak friendly nations north and south?
I want to put this to a question. And want to raise this additional concern. Is the rest of the world really that much more knowing of American or is your knowledge just as superficial and of the same stereotypes.
Our European counterparts on this forum seem to make certain baseless assumptions about our country where as their nations are the bases of many of our crack jokes.

As for the far east, or by American standards the far west, there are only but a handful of members here that seem to have any expressed interest.

So I call for a battle of wits. W/o googling a challenge between the old world and new world to see who's the more ignorant or resonating of more stereotypes than factual instances.

I voted for the first option on your poll. A fairly large section of the european population would understand the U.S politcal system, who the main political partys are, what they stand for whos in power. Whereas if you ask the average american who was in power in the UK, france or germany most wouldnt know.

Thats not to say Americans are ignorant per say just that they have less reason to educate themselves on european politics then visa versa. This is for the same reasons that i dont pay any attention to the politics of Iceland. However given the level of influence American politics has the rest of the world is inclined to look on in terror.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I voted for the first option on your poll. A fairly large section of the european population would understand the U.S politcal system, who the main political partys are, what they stand for whos in power. Whereas if you ask the average american who was in power in the UK, france or germany most wouldnt know.

Thats not to say Americans are ignorant per say just that they have less reason to educate themselves on european politics then visa versa. This is for the same reasons that i dont pay any attention to the politics of Iceland. However given the level of influence American politics has the rest of the world is inclined to look on in terror.

American politics isnt that difficult, there are two parties, basically its a two party state, just a bit more difficult to orient than one party China.

 

[Karmashock]

I just have to add that I think I know America based on many things, and I am sure this is valid for other people as well.

1. Having talked face to face with many Americans.
2. Having lived in the US(or alternatively been there awhile)
3. Having talked to people from the US in chats, forums online debates etc.
4. TV, movies etc.
5. News and actuality magazines
6. Reading and learning about the US in school and then later aquiring more information on all kind of sources.
7. Following US politics
8. Following US foreign policy
9. Following US domestic policy
10.Talking and debating the US in different ways with many different nationalities, especially in the different countries I have lived in.

I would humbly say that I know more about the US than many Amerians.

Individually, that might well be true. However, you can't claim your knowledge enhances the understanding of your host nation significantly.


So in the end while you might perhaps know something, your countrymen aren't any more likely to be aware of other countries.


I'd like to say also that many europeans think they're more aware of the world because they've visited other european countries. After all, in europe you can very quickly visit four countries in a single vaction. It's easy they're close to you and travel is very easy between them. Most european countries are about the size of US states. My state of california has 30 million people in it... and the state is roughly the size of the UK. Traveling to another relatively small country next door to you just makes you aware of europe... not the wider world. Much as traveling to new mexico just makes me more aware of the US. There is major differences between the states. I would in fact argue that there are greater differences between many of hte states then there are between many european countries. True, we all speak english... but there's more to differences between people then language. After all, English people and Australians also speak english.


While you spent time in the US... I would ask how much of the US did you actually visit? The US is a big country... Look at europe... can you find any two countries in europe that have as big a difference between them as say New York and Alaska in the US? Or what about California and texas? I believe there is probably more diversity in the US then there is in all of europe combined (minus the language issue... which I don't think has anything to do with who people really are...).

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

While you spent time in the US... I would ask how much of the US did you actually visit? The US is a big country... Look at europe... can you find any two countries in europe that have as big a difference between them as say New York and Alaska in the US? Or what about California and texas? I believe there is probably more diversity in the US then there is in all of europe combined (minus the language issue... which I don't think has anything to do with who people really are...).

Well, in the wider picture I didnt visit so much, I was in most of Florida, all major cities, I was in Georgia, I was in Louisiana and drove through a few other southeastern states.

I would have liked to visit the northeast, but I didnt have the chance, I would have liked to visit the west, but I didnt have a chance.


New York and Alaska? What about, Finland and Greece?
California and Texas? What about Poland and Spain?

There are great differences in both Europe and the US, its impossible to tell which are more diverse really, not only because they are very diverse but in completely different ways.

 

[Karmashock]

I voted for the first option on your poll. A fairly large section of the european population would understand the U.S politcal system, who the main political partys are, what they stand for whos in power. Whereas if you ask the average american who was in power in the UK, france or germany most wouldnt know.

Thats not to say Americans are ignorant per say just that they have less reason to educate themselves on european politics then visa versa. This is for the same reasons that i dont pay any attention to the politics of Iceland. However given the level of influence American politics has the rest of the world is inclined to look on in terror.

This isn't fair, your population only needs to know one country. And what's more it's a big powerful country with only two political parties. To be fair you'd have to quiz your people on US STATE policy.


Who's the governor of New York? What issues were recently debated in the california senate?


Don't dismiss what I'm saying... these are BIG places... there are thirty million people in California. That's larger then many european countries.


And for that matter who is the president of Japan? What issues were recently debated in the South Korean legislature?


I doubt europeans would do any better then americans. Europeans know europe. Americans know america. Neither one is very competent in other areas generally. I've tested your people... you're only going to come out on top in a rigged test. Just remember that we're all human and doing our best. If you try to de-legitimize our people... say we're ignorant and thus have no right to a respectable opinion it will only end in tears. A little mutual respect and humility would go a long way. I'm not saying we're perfect there... but you're no better. So it's forgive, forget, and move forward time. I know that's hard things being as keyed up as they are... but nothing good will come of pursuing this... our mutual interests lie in knocking the chips off our shoulders and shaking hands.
=============================================

New York and Alaska? What about, Finland and Greece?
California and Texas? What about Poland and Spain?

I'm sure those places are very different. What I'm telling you that there's probably a bigger difference in culture between new york and alaska.


One is urban, one is incredibly rural.
One is extremely ultra liberal, the other is very very conservative.
One has significantly more women in it, the other has a significantly male population.

I can go on and on. All I'm saying is that don't assume you know the world because you know europe. Europe might technically be a bunch of countries but most of them are more similiar then you know when compared to the rest of the world. And the world is full of diversity.


So that's what I mean when I say the world doesn't know itself. So don't kid yourself into thinking you know the world or hypocritically rag on americans for not knowing it either.

Americans generally like euros and euros generally like americans... we're friend... be friendly.


The only real edge on us that I can see you have is that we talk a lot... we make big popular movies... and those give you something of a window into our culture... but they're still just movies. A day doesn't go by when I don't read some fool thinking america is a basically violent and corrupt place because our movies all show violent and corrupt people. That isn't us as I'm sure you are aware but when people judge you through summer block busters and bay watch they're not going to know you. And if you've only been to the american south you don't know america. Hell, I haven't been to every damn state myself and I'm an american. But I'll tell you this, what we do in the world isn't easy. The role we have... whether you think we should have it or not... we have it. And it's not easy. You could say that no one should be in our position and I would agree with you except for someone has to be. That's an oxymoron but that's life... messy.

There are great differences in both Europe and the US, its impossible to tell which are more diverse really, not only because they are very diverse but in completely different ways.

I've heard very little diversity out of europe lately... perhaps some are being so much louder then others that they're drowning out the rest... but I haven't heard it... and I've been listening.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I just have to add that I think I know America based on many things, and I am sure this is valid for other people as well.

1. Having talked face to face with many Americans.
2. Having lived in the US(or alternatively been there awhile)
3. Having talked to people from the US in chats, forums online debates etc.
4. TV, movies etc.
5. News and actuality magazines
6. Reading and learning about the US in school and then later aquiring more information on all kind of sources.
7. Following US politics
8. Following US foreign policy
9. Following US domestic policy
10.Talking and debating the US in different ways with many different nationalities, especially in the different countries I have lived in.

I would humbly say that I know more about the US than many Amerians.

Knowing is one thing. Understanding is another. It is difficult to truly understand another country, due to ones own biases and perceptions on how that country affects one's own.

I also agree with RedDave. Because American politics and policies dominate and affect world affairs so much, more is known about America by other countries then the other way around.

 

[Karmashock]

Knowing is one thing. Understanding is another. It is difficult to truly understand another country, due to ones own biases and perceptions on how that country affects one's own.

I also agree with RedDave. Because American politics and policies dominate and affect world affairs so much, more is known about America by other countries then the other way around.

I think they know a lot of the surface issues... slogans... talking points... various mission statements. But they're so focused on the foreign policy that I don't think they understand who and what each party is... what they're made of down to their bones... and why they do what they do. You won't understand for example the various motivations of the foreign policy without knowing that kind of stuff... and motive is a very critical part of understanding the 'soul' if you will of any of these movements.


It's extremely complicated. And I wouldn't expect anyone that isn't an american to understand it... and I've never found anyone that wasn't an american who did... I talk to a lot of immigrants... it seems to take about 10 years. That's a LOT of time to get it.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I'm sure those places are very different. What I'm telling you that there's probably a bigger difference in culture between new york and alaska.

One is urban, one is incredibly rural.
One is extremely ultra liberal, the other is very very conservative.
One has significantly more women in it, the other has a significantly male population.

I can go on and on. All I'm saying is that don't assume you know the world because you know europe. Europe might technically be a bunch of countries but most of them are more similiar then you know when compared to the rest of the world. And the world is full of diversity.

Yea, I know all this, I know most Europeans have the sae value and that the biggest split is between west and east, this is the reason we are uniting, because in the bigger world, we are almost the same in Europe beside from the language and different wealth(which is equalizing). Everything is becoming more and more similar, and if you travel to another European country before you meet any people it will feel like your home country in most cases.
Language is a major difference, but there are also cultural differences, how big they are varies alot, but I can surely say that English culture is different(almost incompatible) from mainland culture.

Most of Europe is very tightly packed with people and urbanized to a level unknown in the US, so in that way Europe is similar all over.

But I would say the differences are that big in the US either. I would say there is 4 major lines of differences, which could be Northeast/south/west/inland states. In Europe there is also 4 such big lines, south/northwest/east/and UK Isles.
Now, there are also artificial lines, such as Euroland, Schengen-area, language borders(latin/germanic/slavic mainly). But generally the culture for example in souther Europe is mostly the same, its very urbanized and very similar, but very different from that in northern Europe. East and west is also very different in value and culture, but similar in most other ways. England is just a very strange ****ing island, but similar to northern Europe in most ways.

So that's what I mean when I say the world doesn't know itself. So don't kid yourself into thinking you know the world or hypocritically rag on americans for not knowing it either.

I never pretended to know more than I know. I never pretended to know the whole world, but I have a pretty decent picture of things, especially compared to many other people.

Americans generally like euros and euros generally like americans... we're friend... be friendly.

This is true, but usually Americans confuse critisizm of their current path or government with hostility, I assure you its not. Critisizm is usually a positive thing. If you believe I dont critisize my own government more than I do the US issues, then you are completely wrong.

The only real edge on us that I can see you have is that we talk a lot... we make big popular movies... and those give you something of a window into our culture... but they're still just movies. A day doesn't go by when I don't read some fool thinking america is a basically violent and corrupt place because our movies all show violent and corrupt people. That isn't us as I'm sure you are aware but when people judge you through summer block busters and bay watch they're not going to know you.

I assure you my opinions and knowledge on America is not based on movies. Besides in this certain case, America is more violent than other industrialized and lawful societies. This is proven in stats, and its also a fact that most Americans own or carry guns while a minority in Europe own guns and no one carries them except in extreme cases unless they work for law enforcement.

And if you've only been to the american south you don't know america. Hell, I haven't been to every damn state myself and I'm an american. But I'll tell you this, what we do in the world isn't easy. The role we have... whether you think we should have it or not... we have it. And it's not easy. You could say that no one should be in our position and I would agree with you except for someone has to be. That's an oxymoron but that's life... messy.

The role you have would work much better if you cooperated with Europe in doing so, let Europe do the prework and especially the diplomacy, if that fails Europe will let you do the "hot war", then Europe takes over more and more to do the peacekeeping and stablizing. This is the way it needs to work. Together the US and the EU can change the world for the better, we can irradicate povery, we can kill AIDS, we can cure curable illnesses across the world, we can secure every person water, we can educate every human being that dont have the possibility. We can basically do anything we want, but only together with adding each others ideals into a wider idea of how to change the world.
(annually)Our joined GDP is 25 trillion, our joint government spendings 6 trillion, our military budget 700 billion, our armed forces 3 million people, our joint military far more powerful than our lonely ones, our foreign aid is hundreds of billions and our influence together is just astonishing.

Alone the US is 12 trillion, spending 2.7 trillion, military budget 400-500 billion, armed forces 1.5 million, decent military, but far from powerful enough, foreign aid very low and influence diminishing, disliked by many countries and even more by the world populace.

The EU is 13 trillion, spending 3 trillion, military budget 200 billion, armed forces 2 million, alright militaries, together decent, rather weak currently, foreign aid is high but could be much higher, influence is growing, repsected across the world, mostly liked by people, even in the middle east.

Together my friend, together we could make the world like it should be.

I've heard very little diversity out of europe lately... perhaps some are being so much louder then others that they're drowning out the rest... but I haven't heard it... and I've been listening.

There is major diversity, culturally, economically, climate, about anything you can think about, but its very European all of it.

Think of it, if you want to start a business, one of the worst places in the world to do so is in Belgium, while one of the best is Ireland/Denmark.
If you have a high paid work, there are lots of places with terrible taxes in Europe, but we also have a variety of countries with very low taxes.
Many countries in Europe have the highest minimum wages in the world while, and very high average incomes, whole others have the lowest ones in the western world.
If you are a workers, you can find the country with the highest job security in the world in Europe while other countries in Europe have no job security at all.
In one country you find a standard 35 hour week, while in others the standard is 48 hours.
This whole area works as one country, even if its not, can you imagine the possibilities?

The economic diversity is enourmous, and the possibilities the best in the world in my opinion. Very favorable indeed.

Thats just one part of European diversity, so I wouldnt say its not diverse. All other apescts also varies alot.

 

[Red_Dave]

Who's the governor of New York? What issues were recently debated in the california senate?


Don't dismiss what I'm saying... these are BIG places... there are thirty million people in California. That's larger then many european countries.

I wouldnt know who the governer of new york is because from my perspective the governor of new york is insignificant. Just as european politics are insignificant to americans.Population isnt the issue its influence.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I wouldnt know who the governer of new york is because from my perspective the governor of new york is insignificant. Just as european politics are insignificant to americans.Population isnt the issue its influence.

uh oh Red Dave... Now you are in trouble. You will be braded anti American because you said the governor of NY is insignificant. (in your position)
The Americans here will prove to you how she is significant and how good the US is and how bad England is.

Beware..

 

[Karmashock]

Yea, I know all this, I know most Europeans have the sae value and that the biggest split is between west and east, this is the reason we are uniting, because in the bigger world, we are almost the same in Europe beside from the language and different wealth(which is equalizing). Everything is becoming more and more similar, and if you travel to another European country before you meet any people it will feel like your home country in most cases.
Language is a major difference, but there are also cultural differences, how big they are varies alot, but I can surely say that English culture is different(almost incompatible) from mainland culture.

Most of Europe is very tightly packed with people and urbanized to a level unknown in the US, so in that way Europe is similar all over.

But I would say the differences are that big in the US either. I would say there is 4 major lines of differences, which could be Northeast/south/west/inland states. In Europe there is also 4 such big lines, south/northwest/east/and UK Isles.
Now, there are also artificial lines, such as Euroland, Schengen-area, language borders(latin/germanic/slavic mainly). But generally the culture for example in souther Europe is mostly the same, its very urbanized and very similar, but very different from that in northern Europe. East and west is also very different in value and culture, but similar in most other ways. England is just a very strange ****ing island, but similar to northern Europe in most ways.

Good... then you know some of what I'm talking about. The US all by itself minus the language issue is really as diverse if not more diverse then all of europe.


Even the legal systems change from one part of the country to another. Most europeans don't know that... See, most of europe has a unitary government. that is there is one government with absolute authority. In the US we have a federal system which states that EACH state gets to make up most of the rules so long as they don't do anything that screws up the harmony of the union. We pay taxes to our state governments as well as the big federal government... we also pay city and county taxes. We vote for city representatives, for county representatives, for state representatives, and for federal representatives.


Each state is a lot like it's own little country with limited sovereignty. They have their own presidents, their own legislatures, their own budgets drawn from taxes that they personally were able to set without any say by the federal government, they have their own educational policies, their own idea of what is legal or illegal, and they even have their own detachment of the military which will do what the THAT state tells them to do.


You can't tell me that most europeans know that. Because I've talked to know enough europeans to know otherwise.


I'm not arguing for more then that we're really just about equally ignorant of each other here. I'm not saying we're better then you, I'm just saying you're not better then we are...


Be fair.

I never pretended to know more than I know. I never pretended to know the whole world, but I have a pretty decent picture of things, especially compared to many other people.

Sure, but compared to your own countrymen as well. Brother, I have a better idea... or so I like to think as to what is going on then most people... perhaps that's my hubris but that doesn't mean Americans are as aware as I am... it means THIS american is aware.


Your own personal place in the world is just that... you sound like a smart guy that's informed himself... good... just remember that fate isn't so kind to everyone everywhere... lots of people wouldn't know it was raining if you had them stand under a under a roof drain... that's humanity for you. But no one has a monopoly on idiots.

We've got em', you've got em'... don't tell me your brand is milder and easier on the eyes... they're just as stupid and fugly as our bunch.

This is true, but usually Americans confuse critisizm of their current path or government with hostility, I assure you its not. Critisizm is usually a positive thing. If you believe I dont critisize my own government more than I do the US issues, then you are completely wrong.

You can't pretend that opposition to the US has been an entirely rational affair. You have people comparing bush to hitler, americans to facists, setting american flags on fire... etc. Hey look, we have people in the US doing that too... So I don't hold it against you. But don't pretend that you were sitting over there being reasonable in your opposition either. The quality of political discourse in the western world has gone to hell. I think we can both admit that. And just as our people said hurtful and unhelpful things to europe, europe did the same thing to the US. It's nothing personal but western media has really become useless lately. And furthermore I don't think people are educated properly as to how things are to be discussed. Both sides of the pond... Whenever I see people talking about politics on TV it's always pointless petty bickering between parties trying to score some sad point.


that's stupid. that isn't discourse.


My personal thoughts on why this is that philosophy in the west has died from what I can see. Who takes it? This is the MOST fundemental study in western civilization. And until people are educated in philosophy again I really think it's just going to keep getting worse and worse. It's a bit like the curse of Babel... god damned them by having them all speak different languages so they couldn't understand each other. Likewise people are so charged with passion and emotion... and so impatient that they aren't able to communicate anymore.


It's like we say things and we hear the words and understand the words... but it doesn't come together... we can't understand what the other person is talking about. And like some stupid tourist thinks all he has to do to be understood is talk louder people start screaming at each other...


Like shouting is going to make the other side agree with you...

I assure you my opinions and knowledge on America is not based on movies. Besides in this certain case, America is more violent than other industrialized and lawful societies. This is proven in stats, and its also a fact that most Americans own or carry guns while a minority in Europe own guns and no one carries them except in extreme cases unless they work for law enforcement.

The difference isn't that extreme even in the most ambitious statistics. Furthermore, while we have more homicides then you do... you have more beatings, rapes, and thefts.

As to our guns... europeans rarely understand that. That is philosophy. You have to understand that we as americans OWN the state. We are the state. At least philosophically... As such we not only have a right to be "dangerous" but we have a responsibility to be dangerous. Not just for self defense but as a final guard against tyranny. Europeans have a very different culture then most on that note.


I think the Swiss would be the only people that would understand what I'm talking about as I believe they are required to have guns. Their reasons for this are similar... in the event of invasion the armed citizens can instantly become an army.