Approaching situations while armed

[Surtr]

Not sure of your state, but the OH licensing was a painful process for me - they did not even score the targets.

The SP101 is an excellent choice - I assume that yours is .357, and you carry .38, yes?

I have shot some 125g JHP .357s in mine, and it is a painful handful, but devastating!

I live in Texas, and it felt like a sham to me. I already have combat training, but those people were getting robbed of useful knowledge and training they should have been given for the prices charged.

I love my Ruger. It's a 357, but I rarely shoot the full caliber. It's got a short barrel, so anything less than 38 is just wasting power. Plus the heavy frame damn near eliminates the felt recoil. Target acquisition is very fast with that set up.

 

[jaeger19]

I am calling you on this impossible feat of laser like speed.

The only way to out-draw an opponent who is ready to shoot is if they are 1) a corpse, or 2) asleep.

Feel free to post this alleged video of super human speed.

Yeah.. you are wrong on this one... sorry but what he is describing is not two quick draw guys going at it.. one drawn and waiting for the other to draw. Its much more a real life scenario in which the officer has to make a decision: that she is moving, moving in a threatening way, and what she is holding is a firearm, and not her cell phone, or ID or another such thing that one might pull out of their clothing, AND the officer has to maintain complete focus for 5 minutes.

Here is a video about action vs reaction. It takes about .2 seconds for the person to draw and fire as if they intend to shoot a cop.

Then they have the shooter react to a sound. He takes 4-2x as long to react.

Action vs Reaction - Proxy beats Skill - Live Fire Video Demo - YouTube

 

[SMTA]

Yeah.. you are wrong on this one... sorry but what he is describing is not two quick draw guys going at it.. one drawn and waiting for the other to draw. Its much more a real life scenario in which the officer has to make a decision: that she is moving, moving in a threatening way, and what she is holding is a firearm, and not her cell phone, or ID or another such thing that one might pull out of their clothing, AND the officer has to maintain complete focus for 5 minutes.

Here is a video about action vs reaction. It takes about .2 seconds for the person to draw and fire as if they intend to shoot a cop.

Then they have the shooter react to a sound. He takes 4-2x as long to react.

Action vs Reaction - Proxy beats Skill - Live Fire Video Demo - YouTube

I understood exactly. I meant what I said.

You do understand that in the video that the first kneeling shooter already had the fun, though hidden, at his side and already in his hand, right.

I shoot a 1911 most of the time.

If I have that weapon drawn and at the ready position (safety off, finger on trigger) nobody will be able to draw from concealed cover, raise, sight, and pull the trigger before I can. That is fact.

I suggest that you attend an IDPA match so you understand.

Ask Turtle, as he shoots more than I do.

So yes, my comments are exactly correct.

 

[joko104]

Lasers should be a secondary sighting system, not primary,

Simplicity and proper defensive training specifically involves using the iron sights and trigger pull.

Laser sights are prone to potential mechanical failure, and should never be the primary training tool.

Eye contact should never be removed from an assailant for any reason - this is taught by all training schools.

Body movement is identical no matter the sighting methodology that is used.

Many of your statements here are incorrect, and could be dangerous to folks who do not know any better.

Your observations here are rife with inaccuracies.

Your's is just old school thinking - like someone claiming they'll never keep computer records because computers fail, so they keep with a paper filing system. Most people couldn't reliably hit a cow at 30 feet using traditional sights on an instant impulse shot. Her Crimson Trace has never failed, nor has one ever failed for me. Nor are "iron sights" worth anything in a dark setting, where laser sighting is enhanced in a dark setting.

The police and military have reason to oppose lasers because they give away location in the dark in combat situations. That has little relevancy to self defense as there are situations where a person would be trying to hunt down the other person, nor does self defense have much to do with shooting 500 yards.

Your comment would be like to claiming all officers should never have tactical lights because flashlights fail so should only train in the dark without any flashlight or tactical light, nor should ever use night scopes because electronics fails, so should relay only on shooting only to sound and relying on flares. Nor have scopes because scopes can be muddied up and are more easily damaged. I did comment traditional sighting would be her backup as an obvious backup.

Nor is self defense preparedness the same set of issues as for police or military. On the other hand, police and military are notoriously behind the times, like how it took decades for some departments to accept semi-autos and a couple decades for the military to switch from bolt action rifles to semi-autos, having all sorts of wrong slogans while old technology was more reliable - which revolvers and bolt action rifles are.

The body movement distances are not the same at all. Not even close to the same.

 

[jaeger19]

I understood exactly. I meant what I said.

You do understand that in the video that the first kneeling shooter already had the fun, though hidden, at his side and already in his hand, right.

I shoot a 1911 most of the time.

If I have that weapon drawn and at the ready position (safety off, finger on trigger) nobody will be able to draw from concealed cover, raise, sight, and pull the trigger before I can. That is fact.

I suggest that you attend an IDPA match so you understand.

Ask Turtle, as he shoots more than I do.

So yes, my comments are exactly correct.

Again.. you are incorrect. Yes.. the kneeling shooter had the gun in his hand at side.

Also note that the reacting shooter reacted to a sound and did not have to make a shoot/don't shoot decision.

. I have shot IDPA, among a whole host of other pistol and rifle competitions.

IDPA is nothing.. repeat nothing like having to make a life or death decision as to whether you should take a persons life on a hunch of whether they are drawing a pistol, or a cell phone, or handing you a wallet with ID in it.

 

[joko104]

Yeah.. you are wrong on this one... sorry but what he is describing is not two quick draw guys going at it.. one drawn and waiting for the other to draw. Its much more a real life scenario in which the officer has to make a decision: that she is moving, moving in a threatening way, and what she is holding is a firearm, and not her cell phone, or ID or another such thing that one might pull out of their clothing, AND the officer has to maintain complete focus for 5 minutes.

Here is a video about action vs reaction. It takes about .2 seconds for the person to draw and fire as if they intend to shoot a cop.

Then they have the shooter react to a sound. He takes 4-2x as long to react.

Action vs Reaction - Proxy beats Skill - Live Fire Video Demo - YouTube

Yes, in the premise of dangers to officers. Yes, officers are always at great risk and more than most figure. No, there was nothing scientific about it - other than about himself.

No, you are mis-interpreting what he is demonstrating. He had already done the mental processing and he measured time AFTER this for the cop-killer. The time for the cop to react and act included the officer's mental processing, muscle command nerve travel and then muscles doing their thing. He also is measuring different arm movements. Finally, it more confirms my point as the officer is reacting to sound - which is little different and even less mentally complex than reacting sight. A person - if focused - can react a tiny bit slightly faster to sound than sight.

In the scenarios I told of, my wife is the cop killer. The delay of that officer in the "scientific" video is demonstrating what I posted about - the delay in mental processing and then muscle command nerve signals and finally the muscles reacting to it. That is the insurmountable delay and why she would always "win." She learned long ago in high speed mind/body precision in her athletics she is not mentally telling her body what to do now, but what to do in the immediate future. What that video shows Is the inherent delay reaction time. He actually isn't very fast. Certainly faster than me but I'm average if that nor practice being fast anyway. BUT by his video, the cop-killer has a good .2ish seconds before the cop can even begin to react - at best. My wife was in the cop-killer role. It is literally impossible, mentally and physiologically to act instantly.

My wife is not magic. It is not THAT rare that there are people who could draw and fire before the average shooter could react due to inherent reaction delays of the human mind and physiology. The lesson to cops? If the person is skilled and is going to shoot, by the time the officer sees the gun its too late. Even if not, and the officer does hit the person, it will be so close the person will have got his/her shot off at the officer too.

And, of course, unlike the situation with my wife, police really don't know what's going to happen. Plus the officer is having to mentally process a huge collection of information and what-ifs - where if someone is focused singularly on shooting the officer that person is far more specific-action focused.

Your video, if it proves anything, proves my point. The same principle of inherent physiological/mental delay applies in fighting. That's why fighters have to take a stance to protect against sucker punches by a blocking stance, as it is very unlikely they could reposition fast enough to avoid it. The overall reaction delays for mental processing and then actual muscle movement is quite slow.

The mistake you are making it thinking if the officer only was directly pointing at the person, finger on the trigger, than he can instantaneous fire. But it is impossible. The same mental processing, signals to muscles and muscle delay time applies. And there is no way around it either.

 

[SMTA]

Again.. you are incorrect. Yes.. the kneeling shooter had the gun in his hand at side.

Also note that the reacting shooter reacted to a sound and did not have to make a shoot/don't shoot decision.

. I have shot IDPA, among a whole host of other pistol and rifle competitions.

IDPA is nothing.. repeat nothing like having to make a life or death decision as to whether you should take a persons life on a hunch of whether they are drawing a pistol, or a cell phone, or handing you a wallet with ID in it.

Read my post again.

I said at high ready position.

No contest.

 

[SMTA]

You two video boys can continue to duke it out.

Feel free to draw on a drawn weapon - we will read about it in your obit.

This is completely ridiculous and childish, and wrong on many levels..

 

[joko104]

That is completely incorrect about 1911s.

Obviously you have no knowledge of how they operate mechanically.

What the hell are you talking about? A 1911 is single action for the first round.

It appears you quickly removed your message claiming shaving a hammer makes it too light to fire - in your incessant posting "not so!" to anything I post. S&W sells their Airweights with traditional thumb block, shaved thumb block and fully internal hammer. Regardless, a person can adjust/replace the spring anyway. Nearly all handguns require more trigger pull than necessary.

 

[SMTA]

What the hell are you talking about? A 1911 is single action for the first round.

It appears you quickly removed your message claiming shaving a hammer makes it too light to fire - in your incessant posting "not so!" to anything I post. S&W sells their Airweights with traditional thumb block, shaved thumb block and fully internal hammer. Regardless, a person can adjust/replace the spring anyway. Nearly all handguns require more trigger pull than necessary.

this quote from you:

That is primary complaint (only one really) against the 1911s (though too big for CCW) is the necessity to **** for the first round OR have the safety on.

It shows that you have no understanding of how the platform works.

 

[joko104]

I live in Texas, and it felt like a sham to me. I already have combat training, but those people were getting robbed of useful knowledge and training they should have been given for the prices charged.

I love my Ruger. It's a 357, but I rarely shoot the full caliber. It's got a short barrel, so anything less than 38 is just wasting power. Plus the heavy frame damn near eliminates the felt recoil. Target acquisition is very fast with that set up.

Ruger is always a good buy for the buck. Rossi made beautiful heavy frame steel stub .357s.

 

[joko104]

this quote from you:


It shows that you have no understanding of how the platform works.

Explain how you fire the first round a true 1911 without first drawing the hammer back. I'm listening. Well, unless you're an idiot who keeps it cocked and safety off. A 1911 is single action for the first round. Anyone who knows 1911s knows that fact.

 

[Lutherf]

Yeah.. you are wrong on this one... sorry but what he is describing is not two quick draw guys going at it.. one drawn and waiting for the other to draw. Its much more a real life scenario in which the officer has to make a decision: that she is moving, moving in a threatening way, and what she is holding is a firearm, and not her cell phone, or ID or another such thing that one might pull out of their clothing, AND the officer has to maintain complete focus for 5 minutes.

Here is a video about action vs reaction. It takes about .2 seconds for the person to draw and fire as if they intend to shoot a cop.

Then they have the shooter react to a sound. He takes 4-2x as long to react.

Action vs Reaction - Proxy beats Skill - Live Fire Video Demo - YouTube

The video is VERY misleading because it only covers a very narrow scenario.

As a cop, when I approach a driver I'm looking for his hands (as well as for anyone else in or around the vehicle). If I can't see his hands I'm not going to approach the window where he could pull a quickie but, rather, am going to ask the driver to show his hands BEFORE I get into a position where he could shoot through the window or door panel. If I can't see anybody in the vehicle then I'm going to approach in a manner that allows me to sneak a quick peak into the interior as I'm moving. My focus is always on making it as hard as possible for anyone inside to see or react to me before I can see or react to them. It's a matter of situational awareness MUCH more than it is a matter of draw speed.

 

[joko104]

The video is VERY misleading because it only covers a very narrow scenario.

As a cop, when I approach a driver I'm looking for his hands (as well as for anyone else in or around the vehicle). If I can't see his hands I'm not going to approach the window where he could pull a quickie but, rather, am going to ask the driver to show his hands BEFORE I get into a position where he could shoot through the window or door panel. If I can't see anybody in the vehicle then I'm going to approach in a manner that allows me to sneak a quick peak into the interior as I'm moving. My focus is always on making it as hard as possible for anyone inside to see or react to me before I can see or react to them. It's a matter of situational awareness MUCH more than it is a matter of draw speed.

Exactly.

 

[Lutherf]

Explain how you fire the first round a true 1911 without first drawing the hammer back. I'm listening. Well, unless you're an idiot who keeps it cocked and safety off. A 1911 is single action for the first round. Anyone who knows 1911s knows that fact.

If you're approaching a likely hostile situation with a 1911 the safety should be off. Most of us carry condition 1 and clicking the thumb safety from there is little more than a twitch of the thumb.

 

[joko104]

I live in Texas, and it felt like a sham to me. I already have combat training, but those people were getting robbed of useful knowledge and training they should have been given for the prices charged.

I love my Ruger. It's a 357, but I rarely shoot the full caliber. It's got a short barrel, so anything less than 38 is just wasting power. Plus the heavy frame damn near eliminates the felt recoil. Target acquisition is very fast with that set up.

Yes, and Texas it's 10 hours. In Florida? Only 2 hours.

 

[SMTA]

What the hell are you talking about? A 1911 is single action for the first round.

It appears you quickly removed your message claiming shaving a hammer makes it too light to fire - in your incessant posting "not so!" to anything I post. S&W sells their Airweights with traditional thumb block, shaved thumb block and fully internal hammer. Regardless, a person can adjust/replace the spring anyway. Nearly all handguns require more trigger pull than necessary.

Wrong again! Try post number 120.

You need to stop posting incorrect and dangerous information.

You do not understand that cutting the hammer yourself on a DA revolver reduces the weight of the hammer, and reduces the inertia that strikes the firing pin - this can cause mis-fires.

You also need to understand that any work performed on a handgun that is not done professionally can cause serious legal liability if there is a problem with the gun, or the shooter has to appear in court for any reason.

It will also void any factory warranty for that weapon.

You can be help personally liable if others perform these operations under your recommendation, and they have some problem.

I have no idea what a 'thumb block' even is - the hammer does have a spur for thumb cocking.

 

[SMTA]

Explain how you fire the first round a true 1911 without first drawing the hammer back. I'm listening. Well, unless you're an idiot who keeps it cocked and safety off. A 1911 is single action for the first round. Anyone who knows 1911s knows that fact.

It's called Condition One Carry - cocked and locked, exactly what the gun was designed for.

I suggest that you do a little research - there are 3 ways to carry a 1911, with #1 being the only acceptable one.

Any other questions?

 

[joko104]

If you're approaching a likely hostile situation with a 1911 the safety should be off. Most of us carry condition 1 and clicking the thumb safety from there is little more than a twitch of the thumb.

If anyone reads my posts as claiming expertise as a shooter that is quite wrong. I'm slow and inaccurate with a handgun. Nor do I face risk situations that cops typically do. If I feel I'm approaching danger, although I could afford - and probably have - anything I could want, I carry an ordinary side-by-side 12 gauge coach gun with exposed side hammers, 5 various shells in a stock shell holder, and a 1911 45acp with Crimson trace and a single spare magazine. I figure it would have been decided one way or another long before I ran out of ammo. Right or wrong, I carry the 45 uncocked safety off. That also is why I like the exposed old-school hammers on the coach gun.

Although rare and again what I do is quite different, there is a curious psychological effect on others about those old double barrel short coach guns and if you click those two loud old-school hammers it get the other people's attention. A way of indicating I disapprove of their behavior. :2razz: But that is VERY rare. In situations were there is a shooting danger, generally I'd have no chance as I'm greatly outnumbered by hunters. So the firearms are more for show, a rare just-in-case and mostly for a critter like a hog.

It is not my instinct to go for a safety, but to **** it. So I rarely will use a safety. It is not rare to - if not approaching people - not having chambered the 1911. Maybe all this is MUCH slower and just wrong overall, but again I'm not fast nor pretending otherwise. For myself, if a safety is on I'm fumbling with whatever firearm it is in a sense of where is that damn little tab, slide, lever or button?! I know where the hammer is.

 

[joko104]

It's called Condition One Carry - cocked and locked, exactly what the gun was designed for.

I suggest that you do a little research - there are 3 ways to carry a 1911, with #1 being the only acceptable one.

Any other questions?

In other words, I was correct. You cannot fire a 1911 for the first round without cocking it first - exactly as I stated. Your response of it can already be cocked with the safety on doesn't change it had to be cocked before the first round. Not so for double actions and most self defense double actions don't have a safety either - thus my comment of a drawback to the 1911 is either it has to be cocked first or safety on to be safely carried. Yeah, also it can be chambered, but still has to be cocked (by the slide) chambering the first round.

You're arguing against yourself and being ridiculous. You know that, don't you?

Actually, although my 1911s are nearly all Colt old school ranging from commemorative to old and used, I have a Remington 1911 style .45acp R1 with grey "combat" Crimson Trace laser grip on my lap as I write this. Never been fired. I do not like the upper grip back safety. A lot. Actually, it is almost bizarre how many firearms are just laying around here and there within 10 feet of where I'm sitting at the moment. Old school pump Winchester .22, Beautiful Browning .22 pump. An M1A that's never been fired. S&W Defender 38sp with integrated laser (I do not like that design), a coach 12 gauge . -by-side, a 36 "sheriff's style" shorter barrel black powder single action, and old twin barrel .36 black powder, and old Remington semi-auto 30-06. Probably some others in some of these drawers. Have a couple of those little all but worthless tiny .22 Charter Arms somewhere in here. Just a few of what I have laying around. Most I've never fired. Some I have never have been fired by anyone. The good stuff and most of everything is very locked up.

But having a lot of firearms doesn't make me skilled or expert about them. Most I inherited. Lots. And I've bought quite a few since then. Why not? If used, they don't lose value if bought right.

 

[Lutherf]

If anyone reads my posts as claiming expertise as a shooter that is quite wrong. I'm slow and inaccurate with a handgun. Nor do I face risk situations that cops typically do. If I feel I'm approaching danger, although I could afford - and probably have - anything I could want, I carry an ordinary side-by-side 12 gauge coach gun with exposed side hammers, 5 various shells in a stock shell holder, and a 1911 45acp with Crimson trace and a single spare magazine. I figure it would have been decided one way or another long before I ran out of ammo. Right or wrong, I carry the 45 uncocked safety off. That also is why I like the exposed old-school hammers on the coach gun.

Although rare and again what I do is quite different, there is a curious psychological effect on others about those old double barrel short coach guns and if you click those two loud old-school hammers it get the other people's attention. A way of indicating I disapprove of their behavior. :2razz: But that is VERY rare. In situations were there is a shooting danger, generally I'd have no chance as I'm greatly outnumbered by hunters. So the firearms are more for show, a rare just-in-case and mostly for a critter like a hog.

It is not my instinct to go for a safety, but to **** it. So I rarely will use a safety. It is not rare to - if not approaching people - not having chambered the 1911. Maybe all this is MUCH slower and just wrong overall, but again I'm not fast nor pretending otherwise. For myself, if a safety is on I'm fumbling with whatever firearm it is in a sense of where is that damn little tab, slide, lever or button?! I know where the hammer is.

A proper grip on a 1911 will put your thumb (if you're right handed) right along the safety. Releasing the safety is, literally, a twitch of the thumb. If you've just cocked the firearm (going from condition 3 to condition 1) you would actually have to engage the safety, not disengage it.

 

[SMTA]

In other words, I was correct. You cannot fire a 1911 for the first round without cocking it first - exactly as I stated. Your response of it can already be cocked with the safety on doesn't change it had to be cocked before the first round. Not so for double actions and most self defense double actions don't have a safety either - thus my comment of a drawback to the 1911 is either it has to be cocked first or safety on to be safely carried. Yeah, also it can be chambered, but still has to be cocked (by the slide) chambering the first round.

You're arguing against yourself and being ridiculous. You know that, don't you?

No, you are incorrect.

The 1911 carried in Condition one already has a round chambered, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is already on.

When drawing to fire, the safety is dropped during the draw, and the gun is ready to fire.

It is unnecessary to chamber a round to fire, as it is already chambered.

It is also unnecessary to **** the weapon, as it is already cocked and carried that way.

If you truly understand the platform, you should already understand this.

You might be explaining yourself incorrectly due to ignorance of the nomenclature of the weapon.

I am not being rude, but being factual about how the weapon is carried.

 

[SMTA]

A proper grip on a 1911 will put your thumb (if you're right handed) right along the safety. Releasing the safety is, literally, a twitch of the thumb. If you've just cocked the firearm (going from condition 3 to condition 1) you would actually have to engage the safety, not disengage it.

Thank you - you understand.

 

[Lutherf]

Thank you - you understand.

Well, my daily carry is a Colt XSE.

 

[Surtr]

Ruger is always a good buy for the buck. Rossi made beautiful heavy frame steel stub .357s.

I looked at a Rossi because it had a longer barrel, but it just didn't feel right. I personally like a heavy revolver, it feels right, reduces felt recoil, and if all else fails I can strike someone with the gun if they get too close.