Approaching situations while armed (1 Viewer)

[Lutherf]

In light of all the Trayvon Martin hullabaloo I'm thinking it might be a good idea to discuss the ins and outs of being armed and approaching various "weird" situations.

I'm pretty sure that we've discussed carrying in public before and pretty much everyone agreed that being armed generally made them more aware of what they were doing. After all, for most of us the LAST thing we want to do is pull the trigger so we tend to look for ways to do things which will lessen that possibility, right?

Now, sometimes you just happen to be somewhere that things aren't quite right. Maybe you've noticed someone acting weird or a vehicle that's just out of place or something along those lines. What do you do? I don't want to turn this into a Zimmerman thing but he says he saw something out of place and we all know what happened from there so based on that kind of "weird" thing occurring in your vicinity how do you usually handle it?

I'll give an example: I'm often at the office quite late and am usually one of the last ones to leave the complex. We've had a number of break ins over the years, a few other incidents including one gun incident (a guy on a bike pulled a gun on the wife of one of the other business owners). Anyway, one night I noticed an unfamiliar car parked in the lot and it looked like someone was just sitting there. I could hear the radio but it was dark enough that I couldn't really see whether there was someone in the car. I took note of the make of the car and the license plate then headed out. The next morning the car was gone and nobody had been broken into so I didn't sweat it.

That night I saw the car again and there was definitely someone there but, again, he wasn't doing anything. I figured that maybe some drunk from the bar down the street had decided to sleep it off in the parking lot but this time I ran an errand and came back about 15 min later to see if anything had changed. Both the car and the guy were still where I'd left them so I let it go. The next day the car was gone again but one of the other guys who works late asked if I'd seen the car so we compared notes. Sure enough that night he showed up again.

By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.

At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in the car.

Anyway, the point of all this is that although it occurred to me that while I might be justified in going all tactical on the guy from the first I noticed him it wasn't really necessary. On the other hand I couldn't really just ignore the situation either because for all I knew the guy needed medical help or mental help. It also crossed my mind that if he was messed up in the head he might decide to change his car for one of the offices during the night.

I guess what I'm asking is, for those of you who carry, what criteria do you look at before you decide to get involved and then how involved do you get?

 

[tech30528]

Great thread. I think this will shed a lot of light on how CCW types think to those who don't understand it. The way I see it you had the right balance of discretion and awareness. I can't say from my experience if the people I know who carry are more alert and aware because they are carrying or the other way around. I occasionally carry myself. There were no less than 5 firearms in my shop today that I know of. Only one was mine, two were in for repair, and two were in customer's cars. It's just that kind of place and environment. We're totally comfortable with it.

 

[MaggieD]

In light of all the Trayvon Martin hullabaloo I'm thinking it might be a good idea to discuss the ins and outs of being armed and approaching various "weird" situations.

I'm pretty sure that we've discussed carrying in public before and pretty much everyone agreed that being armed generally made them more aware of what they were doing. After all, for most of us the LAST thing we want to do is pull the trigger so we tend to look for ways to do things which will lessen that possibility, right?

Now, sometimes you just happen to be somewhere that things aren't quite right. Maybe you've noticed someone acting weird or a vehicle that's just out of place or something along those lines. What do you do? I don't want to turn this into a Zimmerman thing but he says he saw something out of place and we all know what happened from there so based on that kind of "weird" thing occurring in your vicinity how do you usually handle it?

I'll give an example: I'm often at the office quite late and am usually one of the last ones to leave the complex. We've had a number of break ins over the years, a few other incidents including one gun incident (a guy on a bike pulled a gun on the wife of one of the other business owners). Anyway, one night I noticed an unfamiliar car parked in the lot and it looked like someone was just sitting there. I could hear the radio but it was dark enough that I couldn't really see whether there was someone in the car. I took note of the make of the car and the license plate then headed out. The next morning the car was gone and nobody had been broken into so I didn't sweat it.

That night I saw the car again and there was definitely someone there but, again, he wasn't doing anything. I figured that maybe some drunk from the bar down the street had decided to sleep it off in the parking lot but this time I ran an errand and came back about 15 min later to see if anything had changed. Both the car and the guy were still where I'd left them so I let it go. The next day the car was gone again but one of the other guys who works late asked if I'd seen the car so we compared notes. Sure enough that night he showed up again.

By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.

At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in the car.

Anyway, the point of all this is that although it occurred to me that while I might be justified in going all tactical on the guy from the first I noticed him it wasn't really necessary. On the other hand I couldn't really just ignore the situation either because for all I knew the guy needed medical help or mental help. It also crossed my mind that if he was messed up in the head he might decide to change his car for one of the offices during the night.

I guess what I'm asking is, for those of you who carry, what criteria do you look at before you decide to get involved and then how involved do you get?

This was stupid:

By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.

At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in his car.

Sorry, but that's what 911's for. You were reckless to approach his car.

 

[Lutherf]

This was stupid:



Sorry, but that's what 911's for. You were reckless to approach his car.

:lamo

I appreciate the criticism but I have had a decent amount of opportunity to do that kind of thing when I was a cop in the service. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that just anybody do it but I was careful to approach from a point where he couldn't easily see me and I could see him. If he'd done anything I could have been well out of the way before anything funky happened.

 

[BretJ]

In light of all the Trayvon Martin hullabaloo I'm thinking it might be a good idea to discuss the ins and outs of being armed and approaching various "weird" situations.

I'm pretty sure that we've discussed carrying in public before and pretty much everyone agreed that being armed generally made them more aware of what they were doing. After all, for most of us the LAST thing we want to do is pull the trigger so we tend to look for ways to do things which will lessen that possibility, right?

Now, sometimes you just happen to be somewhere that things aren't quite right. Maybe you've noticed someone acting weird or a vehicle that's just out of place or something along those lines. What do you do? I don't want to turn this into a Zimmerman thing but he says he saw something out of place and we all know what happened from there so based on that kind of "weird" thing occurring in your vicinity how do you usually handle it?

I'll give an example: I'm often at the office quite late and am usually one of the last ones to leave the complex. We've had a number of break ins over the years, a few other incidents including one gun incident (a guy on a bike pulled a gun on the wife of one of the other business owners). Anyway, one night I noticed an unfamiliar car parked in the lot and it looked like someone was just sitting there. I could hear the radio but it was dark enough that I couldn't really see whether there was someone in the car. I took note of the make of the car and the license plate then headed out. The next morning the car was gone and nobody had been broken into so I didn't sweat it.

That night I saw the car again and there was definitely someone there but, again, he wasn't doing anything. I figured that maybe some drunk from the bar down the street had decided to sleep it off in the parking lot but this time I ran an errand and came back about 15 min later to see if anything had changed. Both the car and the guy were still where I'd left them so I let it go. The next day the car was gone again but one of the other guys who works late asked if I'd seen the car so we compared notes. Sure enough that night he showed up again.

By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.

At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in the car.

Anyway, the point of all this is that although it occurred to me that while I might be justified in going all tactical on the guy from the first I noticed him it wasn't really necessary. On the other hand I couldn't really just ignore the situation either because for all I knew the guy needed medical help or mental help. It also crossed my mind that if he was messed up in the head he might decide to change his car for one of the offices during the night.

I guess what I'm asking is, for those of you who carry, what criteria do you look at before you decide to get involved and then how involved do you get?

So many possibilities. I guess in a nutshell, if someone needs aid or medical help, contact 911 and do what you can. In your case, again this is purely situational, if I were armed, I would be far more likely to be willing to go to someone's aid after calling police than not. The guy could have been having a seizure/heart attack/insulin shock. Being armed, I would be willing to get closer to figure out the situation was. I refuse to allow myself to second guess going to someone's aid while I am armed simply because of what happened in the Martin/Zimmerman case. That was a completely different scenario. Why let some biggots rioting in the street over that case affect my decision to help someone?

 

[BretJ]

This was stupid:



Sorry, but that's what 911's for. You were reckless to approach his car.

Purely situational and based on someones comfort level. It may be stupid for some others to do what he did, but in his case, it was the dispatcher that asked him to get a better look. Personally, I would have looked too on the assumption someone needed help. I can't stomach the idea of letting someone die because I am afraid of the possibility it may turn into a bad situation. Seems I have seen a rash of people letting other people die because they were afraid to get involved and would rather wait for emergency services but it seems that is slowly being ingrained into our society.

 

[MaggieD]

Purely situational and based on someones comfort level. It may be stupid for some others to do what he did, but in his case, it was the dispatcher that asked him to get a better look. Personally, I would have looked too on the assumption someone needed help. I can't stomach the idea of letting someone die because I am afraid of the possibility it may turn into a bad situation. Seems I have seen a rash of people letting other people die because they were afraid to get involved and would rather wait for emergency services but it seems that is slowly being ingrained into our society.

For all intents and purposes, it was an empty car...a suspicious empty car. If, for instance, it was a blazing hot day and I saw someone sitting in the car, I might have walked over, too -- for just the reason you mention. Someone might need help.

But, well, I guess I'm more cautious than others. I look at it this way: I have absolutely nothing to gain by walking over to a presumably empty car and peering inside. And, most assuredly, much I could possibly lose. *shrug*

That's why I pay my taxes -- so I can call the coppers and they can do their job.

Illinois has just gotten the okay to issue CCW's. I think I've decided to apply -- but I won't be carrying a weapon every day -- I'll take it when traveling. It's an awesome responsibility to carry a weapon. Just ask you-know-who.

 

[Fisher]

:lamo

I appreciate the criticism but I have had a decent amount of opportunity to do that kind of thing when I was a cop in the service. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that just anybody do it but I was careful to approach from a point where he couldn't easily see me and I could see him. If he'd done anything I could have been well out of the way before anything funky happened.

Your story kind of reminded me of an incident where one day I drug out the electric hedge trimmers to do a serious cutback to some bushes at a building I own and I fired them up with that loud chopping sound and jammed them into the bushes and a locally known wino came flying up out of that hedgerow. He was between the wall and the hedge. He and I both jumped a good 3 feet in the air and he went scurrying off like lightening without either of us saying a word to each other. I am pretty sure my heart skipped more than one beat.

I don't concealed carry. I will sometimes open carry if I am going deer hunting and won't be stopping anywhere but country stores/check-in joints where guns are almost a requirement but that is it. I used to keep a pistol in my ride until the kids came along. I prefer good situational awareness and doing things like not carrying much cash and if I am doing a business drop with lots of money having a diversion bag with nothing but paper in it and the deposit in an inside pocket or up under my arm. Not that many stick-ups in my town and almost all of the shooting are either domestic or drug/gang related on each other. **knocks on wood**

 

[Kal'Stang]

Interesting thread. Think i'll keep an eye on it see how it turns out.

 

[molten_dragon]

I try to listen to my gut instinct as much as I can when deciding whether something is wrong or not.

A few weeks ago, my wife was looking for a desk on craigslist. She found one that she liked, and we went to go take a look at it. When we got to the address the guy gave us, it was a boarded up building in a bad neighborhood. He had told us it was at a business he was in the process of moving out of, but something about it didn't feel right. The place looked like it had been closed up for years, not just a few days. We turned around and left immediately. Like Maggie said, what we stood to gain wasn't worth what we stood to lose if there was something wrong.

 

[blaxshep]

IMO CCW reduces violence dramatically. Unarmed I can fly off the handle and get in a fight, but armed, knowing the potential and serious outcome I will walk away even if provoked.

 

[American]

In light of all the Trayvon Martin hullabaloo I'm thinking it might be a good idea to discuss the ins and outs of being armed and approaching various "weird" situations.

I'm pretty sure that we've discussed carrying in public before and pretty much everyone agreed that being armed generally made them more aware of what they were doing. After all, for most of us the LAST thing we want to do is pull the trigger so we tend to look for ways to do things which will lessen that possibility, right?

Now, sometimes you just happen to be somewhere that things aren't quite right. Maybe you've noticed someone acting weird or a vehicle that's just out of place or something along those lines. What do you do? I don't want to turn this into a Zimmerman thing but he says he saw something out of place and we all know what happened from there so based on that kind of "weird" thing occurring in your vicinity how do you usually handle it?

I'll give an example: I'm often at the office quite late and am usually one of the last ones to leave the complex. We've had a number of break ins over the years, a few other incidents including one gun incident (a guy on a bike pulled a gun on the wife of one of the other business owners). Anyway, one night I noticed an unfamiliar car parked in the lot and it looked like someone was just sitting there. I could hear the radio but it was dark enough that I couldn't really see whether there was someone in the car. I took note of the make of the car and the license plate then headed out. The next morning the car was gone and nobody had been broken into so I didn't sweat it.

That night I saw the car again and there was definitely someone there but, again, he wasn't doing anything. I figured that maybe some drunk from the bar down the street had decided to sleep it off in the parking lot but this time I ran an errand and came back about 15 min later to see if anything had changed. Both the car and the guy were still where I'd left them so I let it go. The next day the car was gone again but one of the other guys who works late asked if I'd seen the car so we compared notes. Sure enough that night he showed up again.

By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.

At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in the car.

Anyway, the point of all this is that although it occurred to me that while I might be justified in going all tactical on the guy from the first I noticed him it wasn't really necessary. On the other hand I couldn't really just ignore the situation either because for all I knew the guy needed medical help or mental help. It also crossed my mind that if he was messed up in the head he might decide to change his car for one of the offices during the night.

I guess what I'm asking is, for those of you who carry, what criteria do you look at before you decide to get involved and then how involved do you get?

Well were you armed?

 

[Lutherf]

Well were you armed?

Yes. I'm pretty much always armed while at the office.

 

[StubbornMoose]

When I lived in Philadelphia I was the victim of 3 vehicle break-ins. One night I was outside smoking a cigarette (I have since quit) when I saw 3 or 4 less than reputable looking fellows (it was dark so I couldn't tell their race) walking back and forth across the street for about 5 min. It appeared to me that they were looking for valuables in cars. I called the police and kept a eye on them until they arrived. If one of them had decided to confront me I may have found myself in the same situation as Zimmerman. So yes I "profiled", yes I was armed, no one was hurt, and yes I would have defended myself if one of them had jumped me. Did the fact that I was armed make me act any differently? No.

 

[Jerry]

In light of all the Trayvon Martin hullabaloo I'm thinking it might be a good idea to discuss the ins and outs of being armed and approaching various "weird" situations.

I'm pretty sure that we've discussed carrying in public before and pretty much everyone agreed that being armed generally made them more aware of what they were doing. After all, for most of us the LAST thing we want to do is pull the trigger so we tend to look for ways to do things which will lessen that possibility, right?

Now, sometimes you just happen to be somewhere that things aren't quite right. Maybe you've noticed someone acting weird or a vehicle that's just out of place or something along those lines. What do you do? I don't want to turn this into a Zimmerman thing but he says he saw something out of place and we all know what happened from there so based on that kind of "weird" thing occurring in your vicinity how do you usually handle it?

I'll give an example: I'm often at the office quite late and am usually one of the last ones to leave the complex. We've had a number of break ins over the years, a few other incidents including one gun incident (a guy on a bike pulled a gun on the wife of one of the other business owners). Anyway, one night I noticed an unfamiliar car parked in the lot and it looked like someone was just sitting there. I could hear the radio but it was dark enough that I couldn't really see whether there was someone in the car. I took note of the make of the car and the license plate then headed out. The next morning the car was gone and nobody had been broken into so I didn't sweat it.

That night I saw the car again and there was definitely someone there but, again, he wasn't doing anything. I figured that maybe some drunk from the bar down the street had decided to sleep it off in the parking lot but this time I ran an errand and came back about 15 min later to see if anything had changed. Both the car and the guy were still where I'd left them so I let it go. The next day the car was gone again but one of the other guys who works late asked if I'd seen the car so we compared notes. Sure enough that night he showed up again.

By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.

At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in the car.

Anyway, the point of all this is that although it occurred to me that while I might be justified in going all tactical on the guy from the first I noticed him it wasn't really necessary. On the other hand I couldn't really just ignore the situation either because for all I knew the guy needed medical help or mental help. It also crossed my mind that if he was messed up in the head he might decide to change his car for one of the offices during the night.

I guess what I'm asking is, for those of you who carry, what criteria do you look at before you decide to get involved and then how involved do you get?

I don't get involved at all unless I think someone is about to die. I'll call the cops and report what I see, and I guess if I was some kind of neighborhood watch I probably might get out and walk down the side walk or something, but I'm not physically involving myself absent an immediate threat.

If I were Z that night, having already taken initiative to keep an eye on the neighborhood, I would have gotten out of my car and walked up the sidewalk a bit too. But I'm not Z, I have different life experiences Z does not have, like military training and a deployment that put me in some stressful situations. While I would likely have gotten out of my car also, it would only be with a working flashlight; I may have faced my car towards where I was headed if it was dark to put the headlights in that direction; and I know for certain that I would have started my voice recorder application on my droid before leaving my car.

 

[Jerry]

...Illinois has just gotten the okay to issue CCW's.....

I'm pretty sure the reason IL hasn't been issuing CCWs is something other than they were awaiting permission. I think the opposite is true, that they've always had the obligation to make permits available and have been braking the law by refusing to issue permits. IL has always had the go-ahead, they just didn't want to. It's not that IL has finaly gotten the green light, it's that the state of IL is having CCW forced down it's throat against against it's will, while the state maintains strong objections.

It looks like IL is going to offer a non-resident permit: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/illinois.pdf

 

[MaggieD]

I'm pretty sure the reason IL hasn't been issuing CCWs is something other than they were awaiting permission. I think the opposite is true, that they've always had the obligation to make permits available and have been braking the law by refusing to issue permits. IL has always had the go-ahead, they just didn't want to. It's not that IL has finaly gotten the green light, it's that the state of IL is having CCW forced down it's throat against against it's will, while the state maintains strong objections.

Oh, I agree. The state only acted when SCOTUS forced its hand. As it is, we'll have to wait 6 months before applying while the state gets all the forms and procedures in place. What.A.Joke.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

It's my theory - formed after years of reading similar stories to the OP online about guns and situations - that people who are armed have a sense of security in which they imagine they can handle whatever tense situation might pop up - and it's even their duty - to investigate matters. (Perhaps they naturally have this sense and thus they're more likely to own firearms, though)

Without being armed - individuals are much less likely to do so out of fear for their safety.

Unarmed individuals are much more sensible in that they will not poke a hornets nest, so to speak.

If someone's going to carry a firearm they should still realize that they're not suddenly *the* law or *the* only one capable of handling situations that come up. They shouldn't let it go to their head and become cocky and full of nothing but testosterone and ego. . . because that seems to be what happens = guns tend to give people a sense of empowerment, and only the good ones don't abuse it.

Yes. I'm pretty much always armed while at the office.

Imagine if the homeless guy living in his car drinking off some beer was high on crank, instead, and squirrelly - pulled a gun because you were snooping around his car. That could have easily gone from 'no big deal' to 'trouble'

 

[Jerry]

Oh, I agree. The state only acted when SCOTUS forced its hand. As it is, we'll have to wait 6 months before applying while the state gets all the forms and procedures in place. What.A.Joke.

Easy solution: Don't require permits, and eliminate 99% of all gun-free zones. Anything less than Constitutional Carry where the only piece of paperwork you ever need is some proof of citizenship is an intolerable infringement.

 

[Lutherf]

It's my theory - formed after years of reading similar stories to the OP online about guns and situations - that people who are armed have a sense of security in which they imagine they can handle whatever tense situation might pop up - and it's even their duty - to investigate matters. (Perhaps they naturally have this sense and thus they're more likely to own firearms, though)

Without being armed - individuals are much less likely to do so out of fear for their safety.

Unarmed individuals are much more sensible in that they will not poke a hornets nest, so to speak.

If someone's going to carry a firearm they should still realize that they're not suddenly *the* law or *the* only one capable of handling situations that come up. They shouldn't let it go to their head and become cocky and full of nothing but testosterone and ego. . . because that seems to be what happens = guns tend to give people a sense of empowerment, and only the good ones don't abuse it.



Imagine if the homeless guy living in his car drinking off some beer was high on crank, instead, and squirrelly - pulled a gun because you were snooping around his car. That could have easily gone from 'no big deal' to 'trouble'

As I said, I had considered that possibility and had taken reasonable precautions to prepare should anything like that occur but there was also a distinct possibility that the guy needed medical attention. Beyond that, if the guy was drunk and took off he would have been a serious danger to anyone else on the street. I'd already given that possibility a pass twice and would have felt absolutely awful if I'd done it a third time and this time something bad happened.

Truth be told I'd have done the same thing even if I wasn't armed because it was the right thing to do.

 

[MaggieD]

Easy solution: Don't require permits, and eliminate 99% of all gun-free zones. Anything less than Constitutional Carry where the only piece of paperwork you ever need is some proof of citizenship is an intolerable infringement.

I completely disagree with you. But I live in the big city, and you live in South Dakota. Your state had 15 homicides last year. Just the City of Chicago had 500.

 

[Captain Adverse]

It appears that we four share a common history of military service. It colors how we'd handle a situation somewhat differently than someone who has never been trained to deal with the possibility of combat. I've been trained to run to the sound of combat, not away from it.

...Now, sometimes you just happen to be somewhere that things aren't quite right. Maybe you've noticed someone acting weird or a vehicle that's just out of place or something along those lines. What do you do? ....based on that kind of "weird" thing occurring in your vicinity how do you usually handle it?

I'll give an example: I'm often at the office quite late and am usually one of the last ones to leave the complex. We've had a number of break ins over the years, a few other incidents including one gun incident (a guy on a bike pulled a gun on the wife of one of the other business owners). Anyway, one night I noticed an unfamiliar car parked in the lot and it looked like someone was just sitting there. I could hear the radio but it was dark enough that I couldn't really see whether there was someone in the car. I took note of the make of the car and the license plate then headed out. The next morning the car was gone and nobody had been broken into so I didn't sweat it.

That night I saw the car again and there was definitely someone there but, again, he wasn't doing anything. I figured that maybe some drunk from the bar down the street had decided to sleep it off in the parking lot but this time I ran an errand and came back about 15 min later to see if anything had changed. Both the car and the guy were still where I'd left them so I let it go. The next day the car was gone again but one of the other guys who works late asked if I'd seen the car so we compared notes. Sure enough that night he showed up again.

By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.

At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in the car.

Anyway, the point of all this is that although it occurred to me that while I might be justified in going all tactical on the guy from the first I noticed him it wasn't really necessary. On the other hand I couldn't really just ignore the situation either because for all I knew the guy needed medical help or mental help. It also crossed my mind that if he was messed up in the head he might decide to change his car for one of the offices during the night.

I appreciate the criticism but I have had a decent amount of opportunity to do that kind of thing when I was a cop in the service. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that just anybody do it but I was careful to approach from a point where he couldn't easily see me and I could see him.

The problem I have with your scenario is your presumption that something needed your personal investigation. The car had been present twice before you'd opted to investigate with no ill effects on you or your business. You did the right thing in the first instance by getting all the basic information needed to report to the police. In the second instance you developed your own theory of why he might have been there (which turned out to be closer to the truth than any fear of possible malfeasance). Your justfications for satisfying your curiousity the third night are weak. Why would you even think a car that has been there three nights in a row would have an ill person in it? If you were that concerned, then a call to the police that third night and have THEM investigate would have been your best option. After all, there was no clear threat, just your personal suspicions.

I guess in a nutshell, if someone needs aid or medical help, contact 911 and do what you can. In your case, again this is purely situational, if I were armed, I would be far more likely to be willing to go to someone's aid after calling police than not. The guy could have been having a seizure/heart attack/insulin shock. Being armed, I would be willing to get closer to figure out the situation was. I refuse to allow myself to second guess going to someone's aid while I am armed simply because of what happened in the Martin/Zimmerman case. That was a completely different scenario. Why let some biggots rioting in the street over that case affect my decision to help someone?

The bolded section is exactly my position. I have some small experience with medical aid and if I see an accident that might involve an injury I immediately call 911 and approach to see if I can render first aid. If I am the "first responder" but the injury is outside my capability I will stay on 911 while comforting the victim until professional help arrives to take over. Then, if I am not needed as a witness I'll depart, job done. I don't own a gun, and have yet to feel the need of one so far. Up to this point I've been fully capable of dealing with any violent (civilian) situation I've encountered using hand-to-hand combat.

I don't get involved at all unless I think someone is about to die. I'll call the cops and report what I see, and I guess if I was some kind of neighborhood watch I probably might get out and walk down the side walk or something, but I'm not physically involving myself absent an immediate threat.

If I were Z that night, having already taken initiative to keep an eye on the neighborhood, I would have gotten out of my car and walked up the sidewalk a bit too. But I'm not Z, I have different life experiences Z does not have, like military training and a deployment that put me in some stressful situations. While I would likely have gotten out of my car also, it would only be with a working flashlight; I may have faced my car towards where I was headed if it was dark to put the headlights in that direction; and I know for certain that I would have started my voice recorder application on my droid before leaving my car.

I'm almost with you, except I don't need to think someone is in danger of losing their life before I am willing to intervene, just that they face physical harm. I have prevented several crimes including attempts to batter females, muggings, and assaults, all simply by approaching and letting people know I was there and that police were on the way. Just recall that cell phones weren't in popular use prior to the 90's, and sometimes something needed to be done immediately to disrupt such activity. The major difference with cell phones is that now my FIRST STEP is to dial 911 and then let people know the police are on the way. But unless I actually SEE a crime in progress and I think I can prevent actual harm to someone I've never intervened beyond calling the police.

In the Z/M case? Neighborhood watch or not, I'd simply call 911 and "watch." I'd only suspect the possibility of a crime, no one was in actual danger, and there was time for the cops to respond.

Getting physically involved is not something I'd advise everyone to do, but I certainly don't think being armed should provide any additional motiviation for doing so. If you don't think you can handle such a situation without a firearm, then a firearm is only going to get you into trouble.

I'm still a firm supporter of the 2nd Amendment, and think CCW is helpful as a measure causing violent criminals to think twice before accosting citizens.

 

[Jerry]

I completely disagree with you. But I live in the big city, and you live in South Dakota. Your state had 15 homicides last year. Just the City of Chicago had 500.

If Chicago alone had 500 homicides while my whole state just had 15 homicides, then I don't see why you disagree with me.

Also, it's important to note the difference between homicide and murder, because the whole point of carrying a gun is so that you can commit homicide when you are justified. We want a certain level of "gun violence" because we want rapists shot and killed. We want a certain level of "gun violence" because we want home intruders shot and killed. We want "weapons of war" to be "on the street" so that a normal person can arm themselves how they see fit wherever they go.

 

[Carjosse]

If Chicago alone had 500 homicides while my whole state just had 15 homicides, then I don't see why you disagree with me.

Also, it's important to note the difference between homicide and murder, because the whole point of carrying a gun is so that you can commit homicide when you are justified. We want a certain level of "gun violence" because we want rapists shot and killed. We want a certain level of "gun violence" because we want home intruders shot and killed.

She is pointing out the discrepancies in size and density of population between South Dakota and Chicago.

 

[Jerry]

She is pointing out the discrepancies in size and density of population between South Dakota and Chicago.

Now that you're caught up with us, maybe you would like to contribute to the conversation.