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We've been down this road before. Can't compare Canada and US. Two entirely different cultures and conditions.
Well I could use Canada to discredit concealed carry. Concealed carry cannot stop plenty of homicides.
I understand carrying in the car but should point out that the couple in the crime you cite were actually abducted coming out of their apartment. If someone is going to carry for self defense only carrying sometimes is only helpful sometimes.
Sticking to the intent of this thread, parking lots pretty much top the list of places where I'm more vigilant than normal. I also tend to stay away from groups of people that seem to just be hanging out in a public place with no particular activity going on. I'll give individuals who are hanging out a look too but if one person is hanging out I also look for a group hanging out in the same area.
I probably would have declined to approach the car after I had called it in. No value in it. Other than that...pretty much textbook doin it right.In light of all the Trayvon Martin hullabaloo I'm thinking it might be a good idea to discuss the ins and outs of being armed and approaching various "weird" situations.
I'm pretty sure that we've discussed carrying in public before and pretty much everyone agreed that being armed generally made them more aware of what they were doing. After all, for most of us the LAST thing we want to do is pull the trigger so we tend to look for ways to do things which will lessen that possibility, right?
Now, sometimes you just happen to be somewhere that things aren't quite right. Maybe you've noticed someone acting weird or a vehicle that's just out of place or something along those lines. What do you do? I don't want to turn this into a Zimmerman thing but he says he saw something out of place and we all know what happened from there so based on that kind of "weird" thing occurring in your vicinity how do you usually handle it?
I'll give an example: I'm often at the office quite late and am usually one of the last ones to leave the complex. We've had a number of break ins over the years, a few other incidents including one gun incident (a guy on a bike pulled a gun on the wife of one of the other business owners). Anyway, one night I noticed an unfamiliar car parked in the lot and it looked like someone was just sitting there. I could hear the radio but it was dark enough that I couldn't really see whether there was someone in the car. I took note of the make of the car and the license plate then headed out. The next morning the car was gone and nobody had been broken into so I didn't sweat it.
That night I saw the car again and there was definitely someone there but, again, he wasn't doing anything. I figured that maybe some drunk from the bar down the street had decided to sleep it off in the parking lot but this time I ran an errand and came back about 15 min later to see if anything had changed. Both the car and the guy were still where I'd left them so I let it go. The next day the car was gone again but one of the other guys who works late asked if I'd seen the car so we compared notes. Sure enough that night he showed up again.
By this time I figured that we really needed to see what was going on so I walked up and took a good look inside. The guy was laying down in the front seat (the seat was reclined all the way) and appeared to be asleep so I knocked on the window but I got no response. I figured that it was a good time to call it in because for all I knew the guy was dead. I was back a good 10 yards from the car at the time and the dispatcher asked me if I could give him any more information on what the guy was doing so I moved back up to the car. When I got to the drivers window the guy must have noticed I was there and he sat up.
At this point I was only half listening to the dispatcher as I was FAR more focused on what the guy was doing. Apparently the dispatcher was just listening to me because I asked the guy if he was OK and he just kind of mumbled. I told the dispatcher that he was alive and seemed OK but that I couldn't really get any information out of him. That's about the time that the FD showed up and they handled things from there. The guy was apparently just really, really drunk and kind of lived in the car.
Anyway, the point of all this is that although it occurred to me that while I might be justified in going all tactical on the guy from the first I noticed him it wasn't really necessary. On the other hand I couldn't really just ignore the situation either because for all I knew the guy needed medical help or mental help. It also crossed my mind that if he was messed up in the head he might decide to change his car for one of the offices during the night.
I guess what I'm asking is, for those of you who carry, what criteria do you look at before you decide to get involved and then how involved do you get?
Yes. I would.Let me give everyone another scenario here:
You're having a late meal at some fast food place and notice a couple of guys get up and follow a woman out the door. It doesn't look like the woman knows the guys are behind her but it's obvious that they have an eye on her. This is in an urban area so it's not likely that she has a car parked right outside. It's night and there isn't a lot of traffic (either pedestrian or automobile).
Do you step outside for a look? If it looks like they are following her do you follow them?
I probably would have declined to approach the car after I had called it in. No value in it. Other than that...pretty much textbook doin it right.
I think unless someone is at imminent risk, as a concealed carry holder you can create a more dangerous situation if you get involved. Ive seen situations and had my phone in my hand with my finger on the send button in plain sight the few times I have approached people in a domestic situation in a non-work environment. Id call out from a healthy distance. Now...if a beat down was being administered...thats a different situation.Ive had angryguy call me names for getting involved and been threatened with an ass whoopin...but thats just threats and I dont respond to verbal threats.
All of the classes and training I have ever been to has pretty much said the same thing...handle YOUR business...you, your family. When it comes to others, call the cops and let them engage. Unless violence is current and ongoing at which time...assess and act accordingly.
Let me give everyone another scenario here:
You're having a late meal at some fast food place and notice a couple of guys get up and follow a woman out the door. It doesn't look like the woman knows the guys are behind her but it's obvious that they have an eye on her. This is in an urban area so it's not likely that she has a car parked right outside. It's night and there isn't a lot of traffic (either pedestrian or automobile).
Do you step outside for a look? If it looks like they are following her do you follow them?
If I am at a fast food place late at night, I probably have been drinking, so hell yeah, due to "liquid courage" I am fighting crime that night. ...Just playing around. But seriously, yes I would definitely check out what is going on and if it looked bad I would call the police. I would have to keep a safe distance. They may have guns, and there are two of them and one of me, and if I have my gun that doesn't make me bulletproof, and guns malfunction, so I would get involved but cautiously. If I follow them, I do it in a car at a safe distance.
Let me give everyone another scenario here:
You're having a late meal at some fast food place and notice a couple of guys get up and follow a woman out the door. It doesn't look like the woman knows the guys are behind her but it's obvious that they have an eye on her. This is in an urban area so it's not likely that she has a car parked right outside. It's night and there isn't a lot of traffic (either pedestrian or automobile).
Do you step outside for a look? If it looks like they are following her do you follow them?
Let me give everyone another scenario here:
You're having a late meal at some fast food place and notice a couple of guys get up and follow a woman out the door. It doesn't look like the woman knows the guys are behind her but it's obvious that they have an eye on her. This is in an urban area so it's not likely that she has a car parked right outside. It's night and there isn't a lot of traffic (either pedestrian or automobile).
Do you step outside for a look? If it looks like they are following her do you follow them?
No because it might be a governor and his assistant sexually harrassing a waitress.
Having interacted with 100's of CCWers, I'd have to say Auntie that that has NOT been my experience. Granted, you'll have a few --- mostly young or inexperienced males --- who have a bit of an ego issue with carrying, but most people who CCW already KNOW that they do NOT want to pull that trigger if they can avoid it. Personally I think CCW is as likely to make someone MORE cautious as it is to make them more reckless. Depends on the personality and character of the individual.
Sticking to the intent of this thread, parking lots pretty much top the list of places where I'm more vigilant than normal. I also tend to stay away from groups of people that seem to just be hanging out in a public place with no particular activity going on. I'll give individuals who are hanging out a look too but if one person is hanging out I also look for a group hanging out in the same area.
Let me give everyone another scenario here:
You're having a late meal at some fast food place and notice a couple of guys get up and follow a woman out the door. It doesn't look like the woman knows the guys are behind her but it's obvious that they have an eye on her. This is in an urban area so it's not likely that she has a car parked right outside. It's night and there isn't a lot of traffic (either pedestrian or automobile).
Do you step outside for a look? If it looks like they are following her do you follow them?
I agree. I also think CCW laws make criminals less likely to commit crimes against average citizens, since they typically want an easy mark and not take any risks. I also agee with your points about caution in your prior post. (Did you see my responses in post #22?)
It might be because of my military training, or the fact I grew up in some pretty tough neighborhoods (Harlem NY and Watts CA) but I am never afraid to walk around at night, nor am I particularly concerned about "groups" or "individuals" who may be hanging out or walking near me. I am in my late 50's, appear caucasian, and also work out to keep in good shape; but I've never been very worried about anyone bothering me.
Why would you be more concerned about parking lots or public places? Walking down a dark alley in an unfamilier neighborhood might be asking for trouble, or jogging in some city park at 3 AM...but otherwise?
I've still got brass balls. I'd probably go out and follow a bit to see if she was alright. Of course she might be scared having THREE people following her now, if she noticed at all.I feel fairly confident that even at my age I can still handle two young men.
But you all know by now, I don't carry a weapon. If I did, I probably would NOT follow her for fear of escalating a situation out of hand. In that case I would attempt to get her attention by calling her back to the diner indicating there might be a problem with her bill. When she came back I would point out my concerns and ask if she needed a cab or something.
P.S. you never responded to my comments in post #22W as I too harsh??? LOL
LOL..............That will never happen in a million years, but I like your train of thinking....................
We've been down this road before. Can't compare Canada and US. Two entirely different cultures and conditions.
thank you ... good to see you again (used to see you on politico.com in the old Mangas, VMBlanco, AlabamaPaul, JackHayes, Shalalee, Polgara, et al. days ...)
...On the second night I was pretty sure it was a drunk but I didn't want it to get to be a regular thing and I was also concerned that if it was that regular then he was a danger on the road both before he got there and if he left during the night. That third night I figured it was time to find out for sure. Among other things it's damned hot in Tucson and hanging out in the car is just not a great idea even if the window is down so when I said "ill" I was thinking more heat stroke or something along those lines. It's not that "ill" hadn't occurred to me before but by this point I had reason to believe that he was parking there for the whole night instead of just a couple of hours.
With regard to parking lots and the groups of people stuff - parking lots are simply great places to hook someone up if you're so inclined. It's where people most often have stuff stolen from their car and people in parking lots are probably shopping so it's more likely that they have extra money on them. As far as groups just hanging out, well, you mentioned Harlem but I was sitting in Bryant Park one day and watched a group of guys sitting there. A middle aged couple in "I ♥ NY" t-shirts was walking past them and one guy asked for a cigarette as two of the others walked behind them and relieved them of his wallet. I've seen the same thing used in muggings and I've seen the solo guy used as a spotter or a decoy. It's just one of those things where in a place where everybody is usually doing something the guy or group that's not doing anything just stands out.
Some are here...............
What affects you affects us. We want stricter gun control in the U.S. so it doesn't spill over our border. What stops someone form purchasing a gun privately in the U.S. and carrying it over the border (well if they don't get caught by border control or mafia)?
I guess what I'm asking is, for those of you who carry, what criteria do you look at before you decide to get involved and then how involved do you get?
It's always dependent upon the individual. I had a few idiots' kids playing on my property, they tear through the neighborhoods on a golf cart(illegally, not a street approved vehicle) and were tresspassing. There was a problem, one of the little brats had a BB gun, I had a .40, if I told them anything and they made a bad move they were shot, no questions asked. I let them tresspass specifically to diffuse the situation, but constantly have my eyes on them, had it been power for power, no weapons, those kids would have been run off, which is a difference maker, I'm only 5'10" but around 190/200lbs. mostly muscle, if I get physical I run the risk of really hurting someone, in my case, the gun could run someone off before they do something stupid.you handled this well ... I don't carry, and one of my problems with carrying is that the gun is there and someone, including yourself, could be shot unnecessarily ... also, having the gun, gives you more power and you may be bolder than you need to be or should be ... my guess is that Zimmerman would have behaved differently had he not had a gun ... he probably would've just called it in and not gotten out of his vehicle ... but, I know others would say, I'd rather have a gun just in case ...
anyway, good question, good issue ... hopefully other have or will respond thoughtfully ...
And therein lies the gray area. Sometimes trouble is something that starts small, gets your attention, and upon investigation escalates. I would rather chase down a far off "help me" than try to go to bed wondering if that person lost their lives because I refused to act.Don't go lookin' for trouble and trouble won't come to you...
That said, I believe it is a citizen's duty to help those in need to the best of one's ability and within reason.
At my last gun purchase I told the clerk verbatim, "This cailber was purchased for a solid defense but I hope that never happens.".Having interacted with 100's of CCWers, I'd have to say Auntie that that has NOT been my experience. Granted, you'll have a few --- mostly young or inexperienced males --- who have a bit of an ego issue with carrying, but most people who CCW already KNOW that they do NOT want to pull that trigger if they can avoid it. Personally I think CCW is as likely to make someone MORE cautious as it is to make them more reckless. Depends on the personality and character of the individual.
BINGO! I'm in Louisiana, lifelong resident and native. Hurricanes are a part of life, as are severe thunderstorms that can knock out power for hours or more. The best bet in life is to hope you don't need to prepare for the worst, but still actually be prepared, have food, water, shelter, alternative power methods for the short term, and worst case..........defense. The firearm, knife, blunt weapons, etc. are part of the total package of "what does one need to survive the worst case scenario, and is there enough for the long term".After years of being around armed individuals.. (my state is open carry).. and having seen studies on the issue. I think that you are inaccurately ascribing the gun as the reason for the confidence etc. Generally.. people that are more inclined to feel responsible for their own safety and the safety of others.. who are more aware of the dangers of the world... are the ones that seek being armed. They probably seem more secure to you, because they start with the mental understanding of the situation.. rather than a knee jerk panic.
A study done after Katrina found that gun owners and their families and close friends faired significantly better after Katrina,, than those that were unarmed. Was it because that somehow the guns helped them steal supplies or protect themselves? NO. It was because gun ownership was associated with folks that felt the need to be responsible for their own safety and their friends and family and because of that.. they took steps to prepare for potentially bad situations. They had water, food, etc etc. While the rest of the unarmed public tended toward panic and the belief that others would come to their aid.. and when they did not.. they knew not what to do...
Meanwhile.. armed individuals, had often prepared themselves and their family and did not panic.
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