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"Anti-Israel isn't anti-Semitism" or is it?

Fishking

Fishking

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Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

Anti-Israel Venn.png
 
Fishking said:
Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

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Any criticism of Jews is anti-semitism by definition it seems.
 
AmNat said:
Any criticism of Jews is anti-semitism by definition it seems.
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Hunting Jews down is for sure anti-Semitism. And not "any criticism of Israel" is = anti-Semitism but the disproportionate attention and criticism of Israel highly likely to be based in it.
 
Fishking said:
And not "any criticism of Israel" is = anti-Semitism but the disproportionate attention and criticism of Israel highly likely to be based in it.
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Let's say it is (I see no utility in a label that encompasses mere criticism as well as murder). Why should Americans care if someone has a particular problem with Israel (or Palestine, or Chad, or France, or China, or the UAE, etc.)?
 
Fishking said:
Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

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There are a couple errors in your logic here. Using myself as an example, in my view, Israel has a right to exist, has a right to defend itself. I have been there and it is an incredible place with remarkable people. With that said, I also think that Israel has a bad habit of going to far in its defense, to the point where it goes far beyond being "defense". This is not anti-semitism, though I have been called an anti-semite for just those views. I also think the US makes some mistakes, and I do not consider it anti-American to point out when someone is critical of actions America takes.

What happens with the label "anti-semitism" is much like what happens with the the label "racist"(or "socialist", or "fascist" or any other label really): it is used instead of making an argument. If you can label an argument anti-semitic, you no longer feel the need to explain why the argument is wrong. It is lazy debate, apply a negative label and be done. And much like the other labels I mentioned, it is badly misused to my mind. My arguments about Israel have exactly zero to do with the Jewish people nor the Jewish religion.
 
Redress said:
There are a couple errors in your logic here. Using myself as an example, in my view, Israel has a right to exist, has a right to defend itself. I have been there and it is an incredible place with remarkable people. With that said, I also think that Israel has a bad habit of going to far in its defense, to the point where it goes far beyond being "defense". This is not anti-semitism, though I have been called an anti-semite for just those views. I also think the US makes some mistakes, and I do not consider it anti-American to point out when someone is critical of actions America takes.

What happens with the label "anti-semitism" is much like what happens with the the label "racist"(or "socialist", or "fascist" or any other label really): it is used instead of making an argument. If you can label an argument anti-semitic, you no longer feel the need to explain why the argument is wrong. It is lazy debate, apply a negative label and be done. And much like the other labels I mentioned, it is badly misused to my mind. My arguments about Israel have exactly zero to do with the Jewish people nor the Jewish religion.
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Do you go out of your way in giving disproportional attention to Israel while ignoring worse issues in countries in the region? Do you think it's really hard to draw a line in what is "too far" for Israel defending itself and it's had to fight multiple wars attempting total extermination and it's neighbors have literal terrorist groups that have the destruction of Israel in their charter as their government? Do you admit that the terrorist using civilian regions as shield for launching their rockets and planning their operations makes it really hard for Israel to fight back without collateral damage?

If your answers are "no, yes, yes" and follow along similarly with other questions then my post wouldn't apply to you. I did put some of these stipulations in my OP and I didn't say "all", but that there was significant overlap.

It seems you may have misunderstood my OP a little and, if so, then have your noted errors in logic been remedied?
 
AmNat said:
Let's say it is (I see no utility in a label that encompasses mere criticism as well as murder). Why should Americans care if someone has a particular problem with Israel (or Palestine, or Chad, or France, or China, or the UAE, etc.)?
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These attacks happened in the U.S.
 
Fishking said:
Do you go out of your way in giving disproportional attention to Israel while ignoring worse issues in countries in the region? Do you think it's really hard to draw a line in what is "too far" for Israel defending itself and it's had to fight multiple wars attempting total extermination and it's neighbors have literal terrorist groups that have the destruction of Israel in their charter as their government? Do you admit that the terrorist using civilian regions as shield for launching their rockets and planning their operations makes it really hard for Israel to fight back without collateral damage?

If your answers are "no, yes, yes" and follow along similarly with other questions then my post wouldn't apply to you. I did put some of these stipulations in my OP and I didn't say "all", but that there was significant overlap.

It seems you may have misunderstood my OP a little and, if so, then have your noted errors in logic been remedied?
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Maybe you are unaware of this, but Israel is in the news. We tend to discuss what is in the news.
 
Redress said:
Maybe you are unaware of this, but Israel is in the news. We tend to discuss what is in the news.
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That isn't a response.
 
Fishking said:
Hunting Jews down is for sure anti-Semitism. And not "any criticism of Israel" is = anti-Semitism but the disproportionate attention and criticism of Israel highly likely to be based in it.
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AmNat is NOT from the left, so you struck out with that ridiculous and dishonest label you attached to the left.

Apparently, complaining about Netanyahu slaughtering women and children is anti-Semitic.

Continue to ignore the indicted Bibi and failing to get Jewish-Americans to vote for the fascist Trump party.
 
Linc said:
AmNat is NOT from the left, so you struck out with that ridiculous and dishonest label you attached to the left.
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When did I say AmNat was on the left?
Linc said:
Apparently, complaining about Netanyahu slaughtering women and children is anti-Semitic.

Continue to ignore the indicted Bibi and failing to get Jewish-Americans to vote for the fascist Trump party.
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Ah...so I can assume that you spend just as much time, or more, condemning Saudi Arabia?
 
Fishking said:
These attacks happened in the U.S.
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If someone from e.g. Poland were the victim of a crime, would that make anyone who "excessively" criticized Poland suspect?
 
AmNat said:
If someone from e.g. Poland were the victim of a crime, would that make anyone who "excessively" criticized Poland suspect?
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Does Poland routinely receive disproportionate criticism while neighboring countries with worse track records are ignored and then those particular Polish people were attacked because they were Polish?
 
Fishking said:
Does Poland routinely receive disproportionate criticism while neighboring countries with worse track records are ignored and then those particular Polish people were attacked because they were Polish?
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I am sure there have been Polish people attacked for being Polish. The American media is at least as critical of Poland as they are of Israel.
 
AmNat said:
I am sure there have been Polish people attacked for being Polish. The American media is at least as critical of Poland as they are of Israel.
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Your entire statement is just false, 100%. Your statement in bold is downright ridiculous.
 
Fishking said:
Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

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Liberals aren't minimizing the ills of autocratic and harsh Islamic nations because their evils are pretty self-evident. They're brutal to lgbq's, dissidents and women in ways that I don't think anybody can really deny or refute. Honestly, I think our alliance with Saudi Arabia is much less defensible than our alliance with Israel.

If Israel seems to you to be getting disproportionate criticism, I think it stems from the fact that they are objectively our closest allies in the region, they're the most Western culturally speaking, and they're currently acting in abominable ways.

Anyway, if you do find liberals who minimize the behavior of totalitarian Islamic regimes, suffice it to say they don't represents my views at all.
 
Cardinal said:
Liberals aren't minimizing the ills of autocratic and harsh Islamic nations because their evils are pretty self-evident. They're brutal to lgbq's, dissidents and women in ways that I don't think anybody can really deny or refute. Honestly, I think our alliance with Saudi Arabia is much less defensible than our alliance with Israel.

If Israel seems to you to be getting disproportionate criticism, I think it stems from the fact that they are objectively our closest allies in the region, they're the most Western culturally speaking, and they're currently acting in abominable ways.

Anyway, if you do find liberals who minimize the behavior of totalitarian Islamic regimes, suffice it to say they don't represents my views at all.
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Yet we see constant disproportionate attention given to Israel. They seem to be put in a lose/lose situation where they are constantly under attack but if they respond then they get shit on for that too.

If say...Mexico was launching hundreds of rockets into the U.S. there wouldn't be an autonomous Mexico. We'd have gone in and crushed their government and locked everything down under military mandate basically indefinitely.
 
Fishking said:
Yet we see constant disproportionate attention given to Israel. They seem to be put in a lose/lose situation where they are constantly under attack but if they respond then they get shit on for that too.

If say...Mexico was launching hundreds of rockets into the U.S. there wouldn't be an autonomous Mexico. We'd have gone in and crushed their government and locked everything down under military mandate basically indefinitely.
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Israel is in a highly unusual and unique position when it comes to how groups inside the US view that nation. Yes, the position of liberals is frequently at odds with the existence of an Israeli state. I don't dispute that and I think they're wrong, but refuting them is complicated when the state is behaving objectively badly. It was much easier defending Israel when they were making good faith efforts toward peace. But in the most simplistic terms I see five main groups in the US:

1) Liberals whose position is at odds with the existence of an Israeli state. Criticizing Israel can easily make me appear to be in this group, but I'm absolutely not.
2) Actual protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion anti-semites. If there are attacks on Synagogues, these are the guys doing it.
3) Republican evangelicals. Jews understand that conservative support for Israel stems mostly from biblical prophecy rather than any love for Jews. If Republicans are confused why more Jews aren't in the GOP, it's because we're perfectly equipped to grasp this distinction.
4) Orthodox Jews. These guys are nuts. They believe God gave Israel to Jews so there really isn't any debating them. They're perfectly happy to take Republicans' full-throated support, but they too know conservatives' motives. They just don't care.
5) Secular Jews. This is me. We believe in a Jewish state and its right to defend itself. We're perfectly cognizant of the historical context that led to its creation, and know that if we're to avoid an endless parade of pogroms then a viable Jewish state is necessary. BUT....we also know that while there are certain ambiguities and gray zones that Israel must necessarily exist in in order to survive, Israel can't just be monsters about it. And right now, under Netanyahu's leadership, they're being monsters. "Israel has a right to defend itself" isn't an argument in defense of taking Palestinian land, kicking them out of their homes and invading their holy sites.

So is the criticism of Israel disproportionate? I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it just seems that way to you. I don't know. But I can say this: Israel's behavior is absolutely fueling the left wing anti-Israeli narrative.
 
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Fishking said:
Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

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I vote mostly Democrat and I'm a huge supporter of both Israel's right to exist and to a two-state solution.

Are you claiming, Fish that the attacks on synagogues here in the US are perpetrated by Democrats, due to their support of the Palestinian people?

LOL - I sure hope not!

Not sure what your point is, if you're not claiming that!
 
Cardinal said:
Israel is in a highly unusual and unique position when it comes to how groups inside the US view that nation. Yes, the position of liberals is frequently at odds with the existence of an Israeli state. I don't dispute that and I think they're wrong, but refuting them is complicated when the state is behaving objectively badly. It was much easier defending Israel when they were making good faith efforts toward peace. But in the most simplistic terms I see five main groups in the US:

1) Liberals whose position is at odds with the existence of an Israeli state. Criticizing Israel can easily make me appear to be in this group, but I'm absolutely not.
2) Actual protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion anti-semites. It's much easier to avoid being lumped in with this group but criticizing Israel does play into their narratives to some extent.
3) Republican evangelicals. Jews understand that conservative support for Israel stems mostly from biblical prophecy rather than any love for Jews. If Republicans are confused why more Jews aren't in the GOP, it's because we're perfectly equipped to grasp this distinction.
4) Orthodox Jews. These guys are nuts. They believe God gave Israel to Jews so there really isn't any debating them. They're perfectly happy to take Republicans' full-throated support, but they too know conservatives' motives. They just don't care.
5) Secular Jews. This is me. We believe in a Jewish state and its right to defend itself. We're perfectly cognizant of the historical context that led to its creation, and know that if we're to avoid an endless parade of pogroms then a viable Jewish state is necessary. BUT....we also know that while there are certain ambiguities and gray zones that Israel must necessarily exist in in order to survive, Israel can't just be monsters about it. And right now, under Netanyahu's leadership, they're being monsters. "Israel has a right to defend itself" isn't an argument in defense of taking Palestinian land, kicking them out of their homes and invading their holy sites.

So is the criticism of Israel disproportionate? I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it just seems that way to you. I don't know. But I can say this: Israel's behavior is absolutely fueling the left wing anti-Israeli narrative.
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I lived in Israel for 2 years. I happen to be Jewish as well, proud of my people's heritage but not religious. Israel is a beautiful place - and it's beautiful because the Israelis made it that way. There are too many factions both within and outside Israel, both Israeli and Arab, who want simply the annihilation of their enemy - a two-state solution won't be possible until we're able to corral these people.
 
Fishking said:
Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

View attachment 67334076
Click to expand...

I don't hate Israeli's, I hate their govt.
 
lurchadams said:
I lived in Israel for 2 years. I happen to be Jewish as well, proud of my people's heritage but not religious. Israel is a beautiful place - and it's beautiful because the Israelis made it that way. There are too many factions both within and outside Israel, both Israeli and Arab, who want simply the annihilation of their enemy - a two-state solution won't be possible until we're able to corral these people.
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It takes two to tango, and right now nobody's tangoing. It's difficult to be in a position where you absolutely support an Israeli state and its right to defend itself, but know that its behavior is utterly indefensible.

Only extremists are in charge. On both sides. Until their influence is removed then nothing will improve.
 
AmNat said:
Any criticism of Jews is anti-semitism by definition it seems.
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Is criticizing the Biden administration anti-Christian?

America is a majority-Christian nation, after all.
 
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