"Anti-Israel isn't anti-Semitism" or is it?

[Fishking]

Anti-Semitism is irrational prejudicial and bigoted behaviour and ideas directed at Jews because of who they are and what they choose to believe in. Criticism of the State of Israel is based on the rational, reasoned and dispassionate analysis and follow-on disapproval of some of the State of Israel's policies.

Is it rational? Why is there so much coverage on it as compared to other countries that are worse? Why are there so many U.N. resolutions against Israel? Why does Israel responding to being rocketed all the time get so much angst? What country in the entire world would put up with what Israel has without going well beyond Israel's response? Why does conflicts with Israel end up with Jews being attacked in the U.S.?

Was hunting down the Amberg brothers, Meyer Lansky or Dutch Shultz anti-Semitism? Of course not. It was based on their illegal behaviours as gangsters and assassins. They were attacked for what they did, not for who they worshipped or who their mothers were.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying the Jews being attacked are mobsters? If so, why are you OK with random vigilantes going after them instead of the police?

When the State of Israel is brutal, flaunts international law, expands its borders by force or attacks neighbouring countries, then it gets criticised, no different from Syria, Russia, America, France, China, Saudi Arabia or any other misbehaving state.

They "flaunt" it? How to they flaunt it? Also, are you saying that Israel should just take rocket attacks and do nothing?

This thread is a load of crap intent on trying to stifle legitimate criticism of the State of Israel for some of its most problematic policies. Individuals, groups, nations and states must be held accountable for their actions, regardless of their history or the harms done to their ancestors or oldest members. Actions, not identity, determines the validity of legitimate criticism.

Not pointing out other regimes' atrocities constantly while critising a certain regime is not the issue either. Some regimes are dead-ender regimes which are beyond the hope of redemption by criticism alone, so there is little point in criticising such regimes. However some regimes have the potential to correct their own abuses and thus focusing on them is the pragmatic and utilitarian focusing of criticism where it has a chance of working and doing some good. North Korea is a dead-ender state but the State of Israel still has hope.

Be well.
Evilroddy.

I think your post did an excellent job at proving my point.

 

[Apocalypse]

@Fishking

There are more Jews living in America than in the State of Israel. So is criticism of America more anti-Semitic than criticism of the State of Israel? In answering this question I hope you see how silly your OP is.

Many American Jews are critical of some of the policies of the State of Israel. Are these American Jews antisemites? Or are the pro-Israeli spokespersons and pundits who call such American-Jewish critics of Israeli policy "self-loathing Jews" or "self-hating Jews" the real antisemites?

Be well.
Evilroddy.

Israel is the one and only Jewish state in the world.
This means that the people who look to express their hatred of Jews would often do so disguised as anti-Israeli hatred.
It becomes simpler for them too when anti-Israeli hatred is seen as acceptable by many parts of modern societies (and it should not) compared to antisemitism recognized as a form of racism.

It doesn't mean every single criticism of an Israeli government's decision is antisemitism, that would make Israel's citizens all antisemites.
But it's naive to ignore the reality that there are plenty who claim to be merely "criticizing" Israel and are antisemites.
When asked what specific policy they would be against they'd list every single Israeli policy that ever existed including the decision to establish Israel itself.
And it's the obsession and level of hate promoted that is the main giveaway.

 

[Fishking]

Technically it is. You may not consider it an answer to your questions or germane to the conversation. But it is a response.

+legitimate

 

[Fishking]

Even you know your own words in this are dumb.

Thank you for admitting you were wrong.

 

[Fishking]

So what you're saying is that you can't have problems with how a government is behaving without insulting the majority religion of the people governed?

Depends. Is it disproportionate? Is it unreasonable? Note that my OP didn't say all. You have to admit that Israel gets disproportionate criticism well beyond what is rational.

 

[craig]

Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

View attachment 67334076

Aren't the Palestinians also Semites?

 

[Fishking]

@Fishking

There are more Jews living in America than in the State of Israel. So is criticism of America more anti-Semitic than criticism of the State of Israel? In answering this question I hope you see how silly your OP is.

Many American Jews are critical of some of the policies of the State of Israel. Are these American Jews antisemites? Or are the pro-Israeli spokespersons and pundits who call such American-Jewish critics of Israeli policy "self-loathing Jews" or "self-hating Jews" the real antisemites?

Be well.
Evilroddy.

Proportionately?

 

[Fishking]

Aren't the Palestinians also Semites?

I think so, but the term anti-Semitism is only for anti-Jew. It doesn't make sense but language is weird like that.

 

[Fishking]

I don't buy it. Not if anti-Israel means criticising Israeli actions against Palestinians. If a Goy is anti-Israel to the point of believing Israel shouldn't exist, that would probably be anti-Semitic but many Orthodox Jews are anti-Zionist because they believe the state of Israel should be established by the Messiah, not ordinary men. After he rebuilds the Temple.

How many rockets attacks should Israel have to be subjected to before responding is allowed? How many wars of attempted genocide have to happen before they are allowed to enact serious security measures?

 

[Fishking]

Israel is the one and only Jewish state in the world.
This means that the people who look to express their hatred of Jews would often do so disguised as anti-Israeli hatred.
It becomes simpler for them too when anti-Israeli hatred is seen as acceptable by many parts of modern societies (and it should not) compared to antisemitism recognized as a form of racism.

It doesn't mean every single criticism of an Israeli government's decision is antisemitism, that would make Israel's citizens all antisemites.
But it's naive to ignore the reality that there are plenty who claim to be merely "criticizing" Israel and are antisemites.
When asked what specific policy they would be against they'd list every single Israeli policy that ever existed including the decision to establish Israel itself.
And it's the obsession and level of hate promoted that is the main giveaway.

Precisely the point.

 

[Apocalypse]

Aren't the Palestinians also Semites?

Yes (Arabs are) but the term antisemitism was coined in reference to Jews alone.

The root word Semite gives the false impression that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, e.g., including Arabs, Assyrians and Arameans. The compound word Antisemitismus ('antisemitism') was first used in print in Germany in 1879[6] as a scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ('Jew-hatred'),[7][8][9][10][11][12] and this has been its common use since then.[13][7][14]

Antisemitism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[craig]

I think so, but the term anti-Semitism is only for anti-Jew. It doesn't make sense but language is weird like that.

Thanks. I should have googled it.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

Thank you for admitting you were wrong.

More made up bullshit from the house of made up bullshit.

 

[Irredentist]

How many rockets attacks should Israel have to be subjected to before responding is allowed? How many wars of attempted genocide have to happen before they are allowed to enact serious security measures?

You act like the Arabs just woke up one day and decided to hate Israel. That's not the case. The creation and expansion of the Israeli state has come at the direct expense of the previous inhabitants of that region. The fighting is, first and foremost, a struggle over territory. Not a battle over ideological or religious differences.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

Even if we take what you say at face value that there are folks who are anti-Semites who dislike Israel,
You have not made the case that disliking Israel and/or it's actions is the same thing as being an anti-Semite.

 

[Irredentist]

Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

View attachment 67334076

If anything, American media downplays the actions of Israel. There was hardly any coverage at all of the current violence for the first several days.

 

[Apocalypse]

Even if we take what you say at face value that there are folks who are anti-Semites who dislike Israel,
You have not made the case that disliking Israel and/or it's actions is the same thing as being an anti-Semite.

You're not helping your case with this video.
Those are Neturei Karta.
They are the most radical branch of Judaism there is, and they oppose Israel's existence, deny the Holocaust, show support for Iran, etc.

 

[Grand Mal]

How many rockets attacks should Israel have to be subjected to before responding is allowed? How many wars of attempted genocide have to happen before they are allowed to enact serious security measures?

I don't know. Tell you the truth, I was overloaded on the subject years ago. I just wish they all could find a resolution. It seems to be going on forever.
I just wanted to chime in on the subject of anti-Semitism and criticising Israel. They're not one and the same in my book.
I would like to note though that there have been Palestinian refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan since the mandate was partitioned. The only reason those host countries haven't assimilated those people is because the camps are great recruiting sources. One good first step would be accepting those people into the host nations.
Might be too late in the case of Syria though. It seems like half of the Syrians have themselves become refugees in other countries.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

You're not helping your case with this video.
Those are Neturei Karta.
They are the most radical branch of Judaism there is, and they oppose Israel's existence, deny the Holocaust, show support for Iran, etc.

My case was that it's possible to have objections to Israel etc. w/o being an anti-Semite.

Are these people anti-Semites?

If not, then these are folks who oppose Israel etc. but are not anti-Semites.

 

[Apocalypse]

My case was that it's possible to have objections to Israel etc. w/o being an anti-Semite.

Are these people anti-Semites?

If not, then these are folks who oppose Israel etc. but are not anti-Semites.

We all agree on that first sentence.
Neturei Karta are Holocaust deniers and supporters of Iran's attempts to destroy Israel so I wouldn't make them an example, is what I'm saying.

 

[What if...?]

Yeah...it was only the Holocaust during WW2. Or...in literally the 1st 24 hrs of Israel's existence all the neighboring countries tried to genocide them out of existence. Then they tried again, and again, and again, and then constant terror attacks and electing terrorist organizations dedicated to Israel's destruction. You know...all those other things that you're ignoring proving my point.

Do you disproportionately criticize Israel over neighboring countries that are much worse? How many rockets should Israel have to endure before they strike back and defend themselves? Do you know of a technology/capability that can only killed Hamas terrorists that operate among civilian populations? Hmmm...your irrational and ignorant criticism reeks of some other motivation. I wonder what that is?

OK. Two simple points. Israels conflict wasn't with the Palestinians. It was with the neighboring Arab countries. Israel won. And kept the land that was being fought over. So they fought over the Palestinians wife and the victor got their wife

Second, where does hamas "properly" fight from? A place of Israel's choosing?

Israel has never been an honest actor in all of this. They just haven't.

 

[craig]

Of often see people, mostly from the left, going on and on about Israel, while ignoring worse atrocities in neighboring countries, but will claim it's not anti-Semitism. The claimed distinction never seems to hold up. Here we have multiple attacks on Jews in the U.S. (i.e. not Israel) because there is totally not a connection between the two, right? The reality is, there is a significant overlap on the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel.

View attachment 67334076

Ethnic nationalism is the most dangerous form of nationalism and should be strongly discouraged wherever it occurs. It enabled many horrific atrocities and ethnic cleansings in the 20th century.

 

[Roadvirus]

Attacks on American Jews have spiked in the last week and a half. I blame AOC and "The Squad"'s rhetoric.

 

[Fishking]

OK. Two simple points. Israels conflict wasn't with the Palestinians. It was with the neighboring Arab countries. Israel won. And kept the land that was being fought over. So they fought over the Palestinians wife and the victor got their wife

Palestinians were involved as well. And they have carried out terrorist attacks incessantly.

Second, where does hamas "properly" fight from? A place of Israel's choosing?

Israel has never been an honest actor in all of this. They just haven't.

They should set aside themselves a their activity outside of civilian zones. Make bases or something.

 

[Fishking]

I don't know. Tell you the truth, I was overloaded on the subject years ago. I just wish they all could find a resolution. It seems to be going on forever.
I just wanted to chime in on the subject of anti-Semitism and criticising Israel. They're not one and the same in my book.
I would like to note though that there have been Palestinian refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan since the mandate was partitioned. The only reason those host countries haven't assimilated those people is because the camps are great recruiting sources. One good first step would be accepting those people into the host nations.
Might be too late in the case of Syria though. It seems like half of the Syrians have themselves become refugees in other countries.

Something like 60% of Jordan is Palestinian and they own many of the richest parts of Amman. The hotel area I stayed in for a month in Amman is owned by Palestinians. It was the nicest hotel I've ever stayed in. There is assimilation happening but maybe not as much as needed. When I was there the push was Syrian refuge camps.

Also of note is that there are Palestinian Israelies that even survive in the IDF or sit office in the Knesset.