Another Win For Socialism

[Spartacus FPV]

I am not talking about just the last recession. I am talking about recessions in general. Are you saying that anyone who hits hard times, like economic recessions in general, does so because they are stupid and lazy

Not at all, I've been hit by hard times and I do not consider myself to be stupid or lazy.

and it's their own fault

A recession is a macroeconomic event, one individual cannot be responsible for one. How one responds to one is up to them.

If you did not prepare for hard times, a failure to plan financially would be ones own fault. Having no savings is ones own fault, wasting money on vice when living check to check is the same.
If you treated those who could have been your social safety net poorly, having no one to lean on would be ones own fault.
Having unwanted children is also ones own damn fault.

It really depends on the circumstances. Having gone through rough times before, now I'm a prepper and am engaging in aggressive repayment of my debt (student loans for the most part) so I am better situated should 2008 occur again. We're overdue for another recession as is and anyone spending beyond their means or buying property they can't afford... well it'll be their own damn fault.

The days of zero interest are OVER, behave accordingly.

and they should be left to die until they learn their lesson?

Dead men know no lessons...

I don't believe anyone should be left to die, I don't know of any ER that wouldn't admit a dying man. I do not believe even in the absence of benefits any homeless person in America knows true starvation. In fact there are quite many resources available to poor people based solely on charity and local donations, my hospital gives out pamphlets informing even the working poor of for example the local Mexican place that places free burritos outside for anyone who needs them, or the local coffee place that has "Suspended Coffees."

I don't see anyone being left to die or anyone advocating for that, so why ask it?

Or would it be a gentler, more humane society if there were some safety nets so people do not have to face dire situations no human being should have to face until they can get back on their feet?

Sure, I'm fine with some. Just depends on what kind and whether or not they can discern the deserving poor from the undeserving poor, who try very well to mimic the deserving poor.

For example, I'm a big fan of Unemployment Insurance, because you pay into that and your benefits and based on your base year contributions. Well, that was only true before Obama's unsustainable extended unemployment program, now you can get back more than you put in and the disincentive to find a new job is prolonged.

 

[ataraxia]

Re: social safety nets:

Sure, I'm fine with some. Just depends on what kind and whether or not they can discern the deserving poor from the undeserving poor, who try very well to mimic the deserving poor.

For example, I'm a big fan of Unemployment Insurance, because you pay into that and your benefits and based on your base year contributions. Well, that was only true before Obama's unsustainable extended unemployment program, now you can get back more than you put in and the disincentive to find a new job is prolonged.

Did you know that before the ACA, 45,000 Americans died every single year from medical conditions which were either easily treatable or preventable if they had been caught earlier (cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc...).

Study from 2009:
New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage | Harvard Gazette

That's seems pretty barbaric to me for any modern civilized society. You?

 

[ataraxia]

A recession is a macroeconomic event, one individual cannot be responsible for one. How one responds to one is up to them.

And a hurricane is a natural event, and how one responds to one is up to them. But of course, it seems to me not so unreasonable to think that a decent competent system of government could help mitigate some of the most painful impacts of one. Or is that big government overreach too now?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Re: social safety nets:


Did you know that before the ACA, 45,000 Americans died every single year from medical conditions which were either easily treatable or preventable if they had been caught earlier (cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc...).

Study from 2009:
New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage | Harvard Gazette

That's seems pretty barbaric to me for any modern civilized society. You?

I wouldn't call that barbaric, I consider the consequences of socialized medicine worse. For example, how many people have health insurance but can't afford to use it now thanks to the ACA?

I regard the initiation of force required for an affordable care act to exist to be barbaric. That said, how is this a reply to what you've quoted? Not having healthcare is not the same as "being left to die." What about the rest of my post?

And a hurricane is a natural event, and how one responds to one is up to them. But of course, it seems to me not so unreasonable to think that a decent competent system of government could help mitigate some of the most painful impacts of one. Or is that big government overreach too now?

How is this a response to my answer to your question at all? Mitigating harm is fine, disaster relief is fine.

 

[ataraxia]

I wouldn't call that barbaric, I consider the consequences of socialized medicine worse. For example, how many people have health insurance but can't afford to use it now thanks to the ACA?

That's because the ACA was a very faulty program which was set up to try to appease the Republicans as best they could. Remember, the original goal was a single payer system, like they have in every other civilized and developed nation on the planet, from Japan and Thailand to England and Sweden. The results in improving public health in those countries, as well as eliminating the extremes of poverty in those nations, have been dramatic.

We spend more but have worse public health measures than Thailand. Heck, I believe we compete with Bangladesh on some of those measures like neonatal mortality. And we spend more on healthcare per capita than all of them. Why? Because if you have money in this country, you can have the best nose and boob jobs on the planet. But born to a poor family? You're outta luck, buddy. Get off your lazy bottom and get yourself some healthcare, right? Barbaric!

I regard the initiation of force required for an affordable care act to exist to be barbaric. That said, how is this a reply to what you've quoted? Not having healthcare is not the same as "being left to die." What about the rest of my post?

Oh please. Cut the drama. It IS the same thing as being left to die. 45000 Americans were doing it every year. What hurricane ever did that? Do you regard the initiation of force required for providing hurricane relief to be barbaric?

How is this a response to my answer to your question at all? Mitigating harm is fine, disaster relief is fine.

When dad loses his job and health coverage and then is diagnosed with cancer, that's a disaster for that whole family which is every bit as devastating as a category V hurricane. I don't even care if dad was lazy when he lost his job. You don't let that whole family get crushed in the name of your freedom. That's barbaric. And don't tell me that doesn't happen:
Saving my life - Thankful for Obamacare - 5 people share their stories - CNNMoney

 

[ataraxia]

Did you know that when Thailand adapted a system of universal healthcare, it eliminated its lowest quartile of extreme poverty? How? It turns out, many families were going broke trying to finance healthcare for a family member with illness. This pattern has actually shown to repeat in almost every nation which has adapted a safety net of healthcare for its citizens. Interestingly, similarly in the US as well, the #1 cause of declarations of personal bankruptcy is getting sick while uninsured.

"Poor health and health shocks are leading causes of chronic poverty and impoverishment. Universal Health Coverage, defined as ensuring that all people have access to the quality health services they need and are safeguarded from public health risks, without suffering financial hardship for paying for them, offers a health sector approach for ending extreme poverty (WHO 2010)...

At the same time, the 2010 World Health Report on Health Systems Financing and the unanimous endorsement of Universal Health Coverage (UHC) by the United Nations in 2012 have paved the way for rich and poor countries alike to take a closer, more critical look at how to raise resources and improve access to health services, particularly for the poor. We know now that partnering with countries to invest in UHC will boost the critical economic growth and social safety nets needed to eliminate extreme poverty. Asian countries have demonstrated regional leadership through platforms such as the ASEAN Plus Three UHC Network to support progress toward sustainable and well-functioning Universal Health Coverage systems. In doing so, we realize that relying on economic growth alone will not lead to the elimination of extreme poverty. Instead, investments in key social sectors such as health, particularly through Universal Health Coverage reforms that empower the poor, are critical for this vision. Investing in health yields high investment returns and contributes to economic growth."
https://www.usaid.gov/sites/default/files/documents/1864/UHC-and-extreme-Poverty-Asia.pdf

 

[JumpinJack]

Want to lose some unwanted pounds? Just turn to socialism.

I bet the socialist elite are fat and sassy though. In a socialist system, the elite are the only ones that benefit while the people suffer. The main goal of the leftists here in the US, make the people suffer. By Joe we'll have top notch healthcare though and free Obamaphones. LOL

Yes, the people of Venezuela are literally starving to death « Hot Air

That's horrible, whatever the cause. What is often the cause of people starving is corruption or a strong leadership (dictatorship, one political party, totalitarianism, dictatorship, monarchy) without a voting middle class.

It seems their economy is collapsing because of a lack of diversity. They are reliant on oil, and as we all know, the oil market collapsed a couple of years ago.

One of the problems with Venezuela is it doesn't have a checks and balances system, like we do. So the President can do authoritarian things, but there's no other branch to keep that in check. Looks like there's a coup trying to happen there.

As for an authoritarian President who doesn't respect the checks and balances system, that does ring a bell, doesn't it? The next time you hear one branch of government disparage another, think about Venezuela and the importance of a checks and balances system of government.

 

[soylentgreen]

I disagree. There are many well-informed people is the US who know that for a country to be fully socialist business and industry must be in state hands.

If one looks at the stock market page in a Swedish paper one can see at a glance that the free market is alive and well in all sectors.

No that is completely wrong. There are in fact no well-informed people is the US who know that for a country to be fully socialist business and industry must be in state hands. This is nothing more than misinterpretation commonly held by americans.
Socialism at its most basic philosophy is the cooperation between government and private business. It is the blend of some communist ideals and of capitalist ideals. It is also anathema to big business which is why americans are told to hate it.

This talk about full state ownership is nothing more than propaganda. The right still play the mccarthyist phobia of state control being the great evil of communism and the left of america still think in terms of leninist bolshevick philosophy.Both are nothing but lies and crap. Old world philosophies way past their used by date.

These european countries unlike america actually do have political parties that think differently from each other and countries can and do swing from far right to central to far left over and over. Where as i have lost count of the times americans from any spectrum of politics has said that their own country is in fact an oligarchy of the rich, and that the government is just a sock puppet.

 

[natsb]

Lying, sexual assault, manipulating the tax system. "Good ole American values" accepted by the far right............lol

Whoa there! The far right has never accepted Bill Clinton or any of his behaviors you listed.

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[KLATTU]

But if that is the general rule, then the nordic countries should be hell holes because they a much more socialist than any other hybrid system. Democrats in this country would be solidly conservative in Nordic countries, yet they get called socialists here.

Despite the lathering they get from the LW press here, and rhos silly surveys,they ARE hell holes. Dark. Depressing. Nobody wants to live in those godawful places.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Despite the lathering they get from the LW press here, and rhos silly surveys,they ARE hell holes. Dark. Depressing. Nobody wants to live in those godawful places.

Come on, are you serious?

 

[ataraxia]

RE: Scandinavian countries:

Despite the lathering they get from the LW press here, and rhos silly surveys,they ARE hell holes. Dark. Depressing. Nobody wants to live in those godawful places.

We are talking about systems of competent government, not weather.

 

[Winston]

Despite the lathering they get from the LW press here, and rhos silly surveys,they ARE hell holes. Dark. Depressing. Nobody wants to live in those godawful places.

Top 10 Happiest Countries in the World

Sweden. Sweden is one of five Nordic countries that consistently sits near the top of the Happiness Report, highlighting the high level of satisfaction found in this region of the world. ...
Australia. Australia is the sixth largest country in the world by area. ...
New Zealand. ...
The Netherlands. ...
Canada. ...
Finland. ...
Norway. ...
Iceland.

Visit the Top 10 Happiest Countries in the World


All are clearly socialist hell holes who are one step away from abolishing private property..

 

[KLATTU]

Top 10 Happiest Countries in the World



Visit the Top 10 Happiest Countries in the World


All are clearly socialist hell holes who are one step away from abolishing private property..

OOOOOOH one of these silly happy country surveys! LAFFRIOT!

 

[KLATTU]

RE: Scandinavian countries:


We are talking about systems of competent government, not weather.

Competent government, eh?
Denmark: ISIS Fighters Accidentally Receiving Welfare Benefits | National Review

The Danish government has been inadvertently paying benefits to citizens fighting for the Islamic State in Syria, Danish officials said Tuesday, as outrage grows that militants are manipulating the country’s generous welfare system. . . . Officials said that since last year, municipal and state authorities had been trying to collect about $95,000 in welfare benefits that had been wrongly paid to 29 citizens who had gone to Syria to fight for ISIS. [NY Times]


Boy you walked right into that one! LOL

 

[Winston]

OOOOOOH one of these silly happy country surveys! LAFFRIOT!

I don't find surveys on mental health silly. If the U.S. respected the framers wishes of preserving the inalienable rights of man, including the right to happiness, they would follow Nordic successes in policy that lead to higher scores in socio economic categories. The U.S. does beat Nordic countries out in gun deaths and incarceration rates. So, there's that.


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[Spartacus FPV]

OOOOOOH one of these silly happy country surveys! LAFFRIOT!

Some dip**** in some other country says he's happier than me, so I should support giving up my rights and money!

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Okay. First off this is a very complicated issue and problem. Its not just simply "socialism causes a famine" or "socialism causes starvation". Thats ****ing idiotic and extremely elementary. Its like saying when there is hunger in capitalist countries its as simple as "capitalism causes hunger" or "capitalism causes starvation", very elementary and does not get to the root of the problem.

Second off, some key things Venezuela needs to do to get a grasp on their economy. 1.)Unify their two exchange rates for their currency into one floating exchange rate. This would allow the govenrment more control on direct subsidies on imports which can be used for social programs and will help curtail the black market exchange rate. 2.)Needs to sell or securitize off most of its $52 billion in foreign assets. 3.)Sell some of its oil reserves it has in oil. This oil does not have to be pumped out now. 4.)Invest in more sectors other than oil. Invest in agriculture, industrial production, etc. Economic policy could determine the political results in Venezuela | TheHill

 

[KLATTU]

Okay. First off this is a very complicated issue and problem. Its not just simply "socialism causes a famine" or "socialism causes starvation". Thats ****ing idiotic and extremely elementary. Its like saying when there is hunger in capitalist countries its as simple as "capitalism causes hunger" or "capitalism causes starvation", very elementary and does not get to the root of the problem.

Second off, some key things Venezuela needs to do to get a grasp on their economy. 1.)Unify their two exchange rates for their currency into one floating exchange rate. This would allow the govenrment more control on direct subsidies on imports which can be used for social programs and will help curtail the black market exchange rate. 2.)Needs to sell or securitize off most of its $52 billion in foreign assets. 3.)Sell some of its oil reserves it has in oil. This oil does not have to be pumped out now. 4.)Invest in more sectors other than oil. Invest in agriculture, industrial production, etc. Economic policy could determine the political results in Venezuela | TheHill

In other words- a new 5 year plan. LOL

 

[KLATTU]

Some dip**** in some other country says he's happier than me, so I should support giving up my rights and money!

LOL- yeah if only the Dems could find some half senile old gadfly to promote this errant nonsense..

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Okay. First off this is a very complicated issue and problem. Its not just simply "socialism causes a famine" or "socialism causes starvation". Thats ****ing idiotic and extremely elementary. Its like saying when there is hunger in capitalist countries its as simple as "capitalism causes hunger" or "capitalism causes starvation", very elementary and does not get to the root of the problem.

Second off, some key things Venezuela needs to do to get a grasp on their economy. 1.)Unify their two exchange rates for their currency into one floating exchange rate. This would allow the govenrment more control on direct subsidies on imports which can be used for social programs and will help curtail the black market exchange rate. 2.)Needs to sell or securitize off most of its $52 billion in foreign assets. 3.)Sell some of its oil reserves it has in oil. This oil does not have to be pumped out now. 4.)Invest in more sectors other than oil. Invest in agriculture, industrial production, etc. Economic policy could determine the political results in Venezuela | TheHill

Sure, all the suffering historically associated with Socialism is completely coincidental, how dare these people attempt to learn from the mistakes of history!

 

[ataraxia]

Sure, all the suffering historically associated with Socialism is completely coincidental, how dare these people attempt to learn from the mistakes of history!

Yes, and the fact that there have never been any pure capitalist countries in the world is just because everyone is so stupid.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

Progressives do not want an all out Socialists government. There is a "need" and a "want" when we talk about Democratic Socialism .... The "needs" (in general) we believe the country should provide are....
1) A military for protection - the U.S. military is one of the largest socialistic organization in the world with its budget more than most small countries GDP. But our country spends money on it because we "need" it.
2) Health care - It is literally impossible to live life with out health care. People need proper health care regardless of income.
3) Education - A country should with out doubt invest in its citizens education. It is an INVESTMENT....A college diploma is becoming more and more of a necessity as a high school diploma. If you want to live above the poverty line you better have a college diploma. However, the rising tuition is ridiculous. One can take out loans only to be shackled to those loans for the rest of their adult life..... The US provided public education at the high school level over a 100 years ago. Its due time we evolve and provide public college education.
4) Working Rights - We need to protect the working rights of the middle class and poor so they can strive for happiness by earning a living wage.
5)Environmental Protection - We need to preserve our environment and push for more energy efficient means.
6) Human Rights - Need to protect human rights. All humans are created equal, everyone needs to have the same rights no matter the ethnicity, origin or gender.


Outside of these basic "needs" are "wants." This is where our capitalistic society thrives...If you want it, go earn it.

Wait wait wait... you make this soooo complicated! Didn't you get the memo from DamnYankee? You hate Liberty, Freedom, Limited Government, Less Taxes, Less Regulations and you do not want to live your life to the fullest.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

I appreciate how important out of context distortions and the resulting lies are to the left and their MSM partners.

You just got assigned, er, arrived on this site, so you haven't seen how context, meaning truth, is established by providing transcripts of President Trumps comments, in order to crush this effort.

What is interesting to me is how willing liberal/socialist progressive followers are. The facts are available, yet they just lap up what is fed them, seemingly without questioning anything at all. Whether it be from paid sources spreading the propaganda, or from the left's MSM partners, it's the perfect example of the dog whistle concept.

It seems to me they deservedly have earned the label of "irredeemably gullible".

I like that term "irredeemably gullible". It aptly describes those who continue to champion Team Trump's reliance on Alternative Facts. This refreshing new wave of Resistance displaying itself at Town Hall meetings across the nation reaffirms my faith in American style democracy. I want to thank Team Trump for reigniting wide spread interest in our political system. Viva Trump!

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Sure, all the suffering historically associated with Socialism is completely coincidental, how dare these people attempt to learn from the mistakes of history!

What does that make all the suffering historically associated with capitalism? Is that just completely coincidental? Elementary arguments. So simple.