America's middle class ranked 27... behind socialist Canada (1 Viewer)

[Zalatix]

So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Can we get a logical answer besides the wimpy "if you don't like it, leave!" copout?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

America is the richest country on Earth. We have the most millionaires, the most billionaires and our wealthiest citizens have garnered more of the planet's riches than any other group in the world. We even have hedge fund managers who make in one hour as much as the average family makes in 21 years!

This opulence is supposed to trickle down to the rest of us, improving the lives of everyday Americans. At least that's what free-market cheerleaders repeatedly promise us.

Unfortunately, it's a lie, one of the biggest ever perpetrated on the American people.

 

[Fisher]

since our median income is $17K or so higher than what the chart shows, I suspect they cherry-picked wealth to try to be political.

 

[greyhat]

Canada isn't a socialist country...quit throwing words around if you don't know what they mean.

 

[Rainman05]

No, america has the richest middle class, it is just that it is the developed country with some of the highest poverty rates.

Poverty in the United States: A Snapshot | National Center for Law and Economic Justice

he Census Bureau reports that 46.2 million people were living in poverty in the United States in 2011 -- the largest number of persons counted as poor in the 53 years of poverty measurements.

The poverty rate (the percentage of all people in the United States who were poor) also remained at record high levels: 15 percent for all Americans and 21.9 percent for children.

Personal income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personal income -> 27.5k a year on average in 2011. A low only surpassed in 2010.

As opposed to nearly 30k high in 2006 when Bush was in office.

So this is the data that says that america has the poorest middle class. And that is not true. It has a low personal income. But then again, lets compare it to the UK.

Child poverty facts and figures | Child Poverty Action Group

Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this, the average income in the UK is 499*4*12 pounds = 24k pounds = 36.5k $. But the UK has poverty issues too.

But we can see that the average personal income discrepancy between the UK and the USA. 24k$ to 36.5k $. This however doesn't reflect on the notion of income of the middle class. I normally consider the middle class to be people who work in fields that require college education. And for people who have college education, working in the USA is a dream come true. Some of the highest salaries for college-educated people are in the USA. So the USA has arguably one of the richest middle classes in the world, I don't know if THE richest, but one of the the richest, but the problem lies in the fact that the middle class is shrinking and many aren't a part of it.

 

[Captain Adverse]

So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

The problem with your question is that we do not know the statistical basis for this table being used, i.e. what were the underlying factors used to determine the middle class salary upon which it is based? Were comparative populations used in the determinations? What did the developer use as the cut-off for "wealthy" before calculating the averages? Anyone who has a salary over $200,000?

I wonder if you ask an American who makes $200,000 a year if he is rich, or middle class; which answer he is most likely to give?

 

[beerftw]

So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Can we get a logical answer besides the wimpy "if you don't like it, leave!" copout?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

America is the richest country on Earth. We have the most millionaires, the most billionaires and our wealthiest citizens have garnered more of the planet's riches than any other group in the world. We even have hedge fund managers who make in one hour as much as the average family makes in 21 years!

This opulence is supposed to trickle down to the rest of us, improving the lives of everyday Americans. At least that's what free-market cheerleaders repeatedly promise us.

Unfortunately, it's a lie, one of the biggest ever perpetrated on the American people.

well for one,that chart is innacurate on us wealth,both census and tax records show it much higher for both median and mean income,second the chart blatantly ignores factors like cost of iving.for example japan ranks number 3,yet is one of the most expensive countries on earth to live in,a mcdonals employee would make close to 50k a year and still have to get a second job there just to survive,need i remind you its the country of 45 dollar watermelons and 80 dollar tshirts.the cost of living is so high they vacation in america because their chump change there buys alot in the same currency.

luzemburg is a tiny country thats also very rich,and caters to the rich,and of course australia itself is super expensive to live in,it ranks very high in cost of living compared to other countries,so in which if cost of living in most of those countries were calculated in us dollars compared to income in us dollars,their incomes would be the same or less,excluding countries like kuwait and qatar,which have so much oil money they can subsidize their tiny populations and have money to spare.

 

[Zalatix]

The problem with your question is that we do not know the statistical basis for this table being used, i.e. what were the underlying factors used to determine the middle class salary upon which it is based? Were comparative populations used in the determinations? What did the developer use as the cut-off for "wealthy" before calculating the averages? Anyone who has a salary over $200,000?

I wonder if you ask an American who makes $200,000 a year if he is rich, or middle class; which answer he is most likely to give?

I'm sure they'll claim middle class. But that car in his driveway will say otherwise.

We're also loaded with consumer debt, which other nations are not.

 

[Zalatix]

No, america has the richest middle class, it is just that it is the developed country with some of the highest poverty rates.

Poverty in the United States: A Snapshot | National Center for Law and Economic Justice

he Census Bureau reports that 46.2 million people were living in poverty in the United States in 2011 -- the largest number of persons counted as poor in the 53 years of poverty measurements.

The poverty rate (the percentage of all people in the United States who were poor) also remained at record high levels: 15 percent for all Americans and 21.9 percent for children.

Personal income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personal income -> 27.5k a year on average in 2011. A low only surpassed in 2010.

As opposed to nearly 30k high in 2006 when Bush was in office.

So this is the data that says that america has the poorest middle class. And that is not true. It has a low personal income. But then again, lets compare it to the UK.

Child poverty facts and figures | Child Poverty Action Group

Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this, the average income in the UK is 499*4*12 pounds = 24k pounds = 36.5k $. But the UK has poverty issues too.

But we can see that the average personal income discrepancy between the UK and the USA. 24k$ to 36.5k $. This however doesn't reflect on the notion of income of the middle class. I normally consider the middle class to be people who work in fields that require college education. And for people who have college education, working in the USA is a dream come true. Some of the highest salaries for college-educated people are in the USA. So the USA has arguably one of the richest middle classes in the world, I don't know if THE richest, but one of the the richest, but the problem lies in the fact that the middle class is shrinking and many aren't a part of it.

If you knew how many Americans with college degrees were working at McDonald's, you wouldn't say that is a dream come true. We even have tons of unemployed or underemployed ENGINEERS.

If I were an engineer I would laugh at the idea of coming here. You have WAY better chances of a job in China or India.

 

[The Man]

If I were an engineer I would laugh at the idea of coming here. You have WAY better chances of a job in China or India.

Most people also have a way better chance of getting laid if they go to a whore house or pick up a hooker. What's your point again?

 

[CanadaJohn]

1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.

 

[Fisher]

1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

Yep. You tell em, John. Canada isn't even a country, socialist or otherwise. It is just the part of North America nobody else really wanted :lamo


Just kidding. couldn't resist

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

Facts are or the are not. I don't know.

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

Yep.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.

Yep. Lot of fraud schemes going on too. People were doing all sorts of crazy things like setting up two or 3 companies. They would buy condemned falling down properties for a few grand with company A, "sell" them to company "B" for some stated outlandish price with financing provided by company C. That would create the illusion the properties were worth the outlandish price and they would refi with a real lender and walk away with tons of cash and stick the lenders with foreclosing on properties that had more liability attached to them than worth doing to foreclosures. Another variation was to get hard money investors in a company C, finance the property with DT/Note in the name of the investor, and then company B would take the money and run and company C would disappear but could argue that they were making bad investments not doing fraud if they got tracked down and charged.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.

But Canada - along with America and most of the rest of the first-world nations - is a socialized democracy. Canada is not completely socialist, but does include some tenets of socialism...and that's a good thing.

 

[YoungConserv]

I would say our larger level of imigration than these other country has a lot to do with that number as we are continually adding poverty.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Is anyone else tired as **** of the partisan political pandering to the middle class as I am?

 

[Fisher]

Is anyone else tired as **** of the partisan political pandering to the middle class as I am?

I am tired of economic pandering to the poor, the middle class, and the wealthy.

 

[specklebang]

I've looked this over and I wish I understood better how they came up with these figures. What is "wealth" and how do you determine it?

Surely every Australian doesn't have 5 times the money his US counterpart has. So, if this is just dividing population by GDP or something, there is no comparison here at all. We have a larger population than many of those countries combined. Our land mass is greater than all those countries combined except 2.

I doubt we're number one at anything but military anymore but 27th? Really? I think we're in better shape than most other people anywhere. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm usually a pessimist. I don't know whats got into me.

So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Can we get a logical answer besides the wimpy "if you don't like it, leave!" copout?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

America is the richest country on Earth. We have the most millionaires, the most billionaires and our wealthiest citizens have garnered more of the planet's riches than any other group in the world. We even have hedge fund managers who make in one hour as much as the average family makes in 21 years!

This opulence is supposed to trickle down to the rest of us, improving the lives of everyday Americans. At least that's what free-market cheerleaders repeatedly promise us.

Unfortunately, it's a lie, one of the biggest ever perpetrated on the American people.

 

[Rainman05]

If you knew how many Americans with college degrees were working at McDonald's, you wouldn't say that is a dream come true. We even have tons of unemployed or underemployed ENGINEERS.

If I were an engineer I would laugh at the idea of coming here. You have WAY better chances of a job in China or India.

Nobody is saying that being an engineer/arhitect/doctor/etc is a guaranteed job. Sure, there are plenty of people with degrees in art and photography that work the same jobs people who dropped out of college. But it doesn't mean that you can put them on the same level. I think you will find that the unemployment level among people who graduated from such colleges is far lower than those who graduated from the others.

As for working in the USA. There are 2 kinds of people.
People who go to the USA and search for work.
And people who go to the USA because they got a contract to work there. I, as well as most Europeans, are here.

 

[YoungConserv]

I've looked this over and I wish I understood better how they came up with these figures. What is "wealth" and how do you determine it?

Surely every Australian doesn't have 5 times the money his US counterpart has. So, if this is just dividing population by GDP or something, there is no comparison here at all. We have a larger population than many of those countries combined. Our land mass is greater than all those countries combined except 2.

I doubt we're number one at anything but military anymore but 27th? Really? I think we're in better shape than most other people anywhere. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm usually a pessimist. I don't know whats got into me.

Again there is no other country that imports poverty like we do in form of imigration.

 

[Grand Mal]

1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.

'Deregulation!' 'Deregulation!' It was the mantra hyped to kick the US economy into overdrive but surprise! surprise! corporate greed killed the goose. It'll happen again, too, given the chance.

 

[specklebang]

What does that have to do with the topic or the question I posed? This isn't about politics, it's about economics. I think immigration is in a different thread. Or am I missing your point?

Again there is no other country that imports poverty like we do in form of imigration.

 

[Grand Mal]

Again there is no other country that imports poverty like we do in form of imigration.

You sure that the US has a higher level of immigration than Canada and Australia?
You might want to fact-check. I've read that the US is 'way down the list, per capita.

 

[YoungConserv]

You sure that the US has a higher level of immigration than Canada and Australia?
You might want to fact-check. I've read that the US is 'way down the list, per capita.

We have averaged 1 mill + over the last ten years Canada averaged .25 mill a year. As far as per capita I have no idea but I've never thought of it as a good aunalitic tool as it favors smaller sample sizes.

 

[Grand Mal]

We have averaged 1 mill + over the last ten years Canada averaged .25 mill a year. As far as per capita I have no idea but I've never thought of it as a good aunalitic tool as it favors smaller sample sizes.

yeesh.
What's an 'aunalitic' tool? My guess is you mean 'analytic' and if you don't see why per capita matters you don't have any understanding of how statistics work. It doesn't favour smaller sample sizes at all. It's absolutely neutral.
If your numbers are right (and I have no reason to dispute them) then Canada, with .25 immigrants in .1 population, has had more than twice the immigration that the US has, and I bet Australia is even higher.

 

[YoungConserv]

yeesh.
What's an 'aunalitic' tool? My guess is you mean 'analytic' and if you don't see why per capita matters you don't have any understanding of how statistics work. It doesn't favour smaller sample sizes at all. It's absolutely neutral.
If your numbers are right (and I have no reason to dispute them) then Canada, with .25 immigrants in .1 population, has had more than twice the immigration that the US has, and I bet Australia is even higher.

I just think that ignores the problems of scale that come with dealing with larger populations. I see the value of per capita but because of the complications they often give in acurate pictures.

 

[Grand Mal]

I just think that ignores the problems of scale that come with dealing with larger populations. I see the value of per capita but because of the complications they often give in acurate pictures.

'Problems of scale' would be proportionately larger in smaller populations, no? And I don't know what you mean by 'complications' that give inaccurate pictures.
Just curious- do you have spell-check enabled?