• Please keep all posts on the Rittenhouse verdict here: Rittenhouse Verdict. Note the moderator warnings in the thread. The thread will be heavily moderated with a zero tolerance policy for any baiting, flaming, trolling or other rule breaks. Stick to the topic and not the other posters. Thank you.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

America's middle class ranked 27... behind socialist Canada

Zalatix

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
3,228
Reaction score
662
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Can we get a logical answer besides the wimpy "if you don't like it, leave!" copout?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

America is the richest country on Earth. We have the most millionaires, the most billionaires and our wealthiest citizens have garnered more of the planet's riches than any other group in the world. We even have hedge fund managers who make in one hour as much as the average family makes in 21 years!

This opulence is supposed to trickle down to the rest of us, improving the lives of everyday Americans. At least that's what free-market cheerleaders repeatedly promise us.

Unfortunately, it's a lie, one of the biggest ever perpetrated on the American people.

URW83lMvrneYqwWf_fDidPxc2ib6LflMAiSvwew4jY90vqa2DCXYQHnoP4_wrCVfwxEd8GjoZRUcHlFMnMtPuBMJxTcCi4-LFvELvIK12fbvXVNOABYG2uqlrbhE0dscLA
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
since our median income is $17K or so higher than what the chart shows, I suspect they cherry-picked wealth to try to be political.
 

greyhat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
562
Reaction score
159
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Canada isn't a socialist country...quit throwing words around if you don't know what they mean.
 

Rainman05

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
10,032
Reaction score
4,964
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No, america has the richest middle class, it is just that it is the developed country with some of the highest poverty rates.

Poverty in the United States: A Snapshot | National Center for Law and Economic Justice

he Census Bureau reports that 46.2 million people were living in poverty in the United States in 2011 -- the largest number of persons counted as poor in the 53 years of poverty measurements.

The poverty rate (the percentage of all people in the United States who were poor) also remained at record high levels: 15 percent for all Americans and 21.9 percent for children.

Personal income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personal income -> 27.5k a year on average in 2011. A low only surpassed in 2010.

Per_capita_US_income.png

As opposed to nearly 30k high in 2006 when Bush was in office.

So this is the data that says that america has the poorest middle class. And that is not true. It has a low personal income. But then again, lets compare it to the UK.

Child poverty facts and figures | Child Poverty Action Group

Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this, the average income in the UK is 499*4*12 pounds = 24k pounds = 36.5k $. But the UK has poverty issues too.

But we can see that the average personal income discrepancy between the UK and the USA. 24k$ to 36.5k $. This however doesn't reflect on the notion of income of the middle class. I normally consider the middle class to be people who work in fields that require college education. And for people who have college education, working in the USA is a dream come true. Some of the highest salaries for college-educated people are in the USA. So the USA has arguably one of the richest middle classes in the world, I don't know if THE richest, but one of the the richest, but the problem lies in the fact that the middle class is shrinking and many aren't a part of it.
 

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
16,640
Reaction score
21,932
Location
Mid-West USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

URW83lMvrneYqwWf_fDidPxc2ib6LflMAiSvwew4jY90vqa2DCXYQHnoP4_wrCVfwxEd8GjoZRUcHlFMnMtPuBMJxTcCi4-LFvELvIK12fbvXVNOABYG2uqlrbhE0dscLA

The problem with your question is that we do not know the statistical basis for this table being used, i.e. what were the underlying factors used to determine the middle class salary upon which it is based? Were comparative populations used in the determinations? What did the developer use as the cut-off for "wealthy" before calculating the averages? Anyone who has a salary over $200,000?

I wonder if you ask an American who makes $200,000 a year if he is rich, or middle class; which answer he is most likely to give?
 
Last edited:

beerftw

proud ammosexual
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
18,913
Reaction score
5,520
Location
kekistan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Can we get a logical answer besides the wimpy "if you don't like it, leave!" copout?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

America is the richest country on Earth. We have the most millionaires, the most billionaires and our wealthiest citizens have garnered more of the planet's riches than any other group in the world. We even have hedge fund managers who make in one hour as much as the average family makes in 21 years!

This opulence is supposed to trickle down to the rest of us, improving the lives of everyday Americans. At least that's what free-market cheerleaders repeatedly promise us.

Unfortunately, it's a lie, one of the biggest ever perpetrated on the American people.

URW83lMvrneYqwWf_fDidPxc2ib6LflMAiSvwew4jY90vqa2DCXYQHnoP4_wrCVfwxEd8GjoZRUcHlFMnMtPuBMJxTcCi4-LFvELvIK12fbvXVNOABYG2uqlrbhE0dscLA

well for one,that chart is innacurate on us wealth,both census and tax records show it much higher for both median and mean income,second the chart blatantly ignores factors like cost of iving.for example japan ranks number 3,yet is one of the most expensive countries on earth to live in,a mcdonals employee would make close to 50k a year and still have to get a second job there just to survive,need i remind you its the country of 45 dollar watermelons and 80 dollar tshirts.the cost of living is so high they vacation in america because their chump change there buys alot in the same currency.

luzemburg is a tiny country thats also very rich,and caters to the rich,and of course australia itself is super expensive to live in,it ranks very high in cost of living compared to other countries,so in which if cost of living in most of those countries were calculated in us dollars compared to income in us dollars,their incomes would be the same or less,excluding countries like kuwait and qatar,which have so much oil money they can subsidize their tiny populations and have money to spare.
 

Zalatix

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
3,228
Reaction score
662
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
The problem with your question is that we do not know the statistical basis for this table being used, i.e. what were the underlying factors used to determine the middle class salary upon which it is based? Were comparative populations used in the determinations? What did the developer use as the cut-off for "wealthy" before calculating the averages? Anyone who has a salary over $200,000?

I wonder if you ask an American who makes $200,000 a year if he is rich, or middle class; which answer he is most likely to give?
I'm sure they'll claim middle class. But that car in his driveway will say otherwise.

We're also loaded with consumer debt, which other nations are not.
 

Zalatix

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
3,228
Reaction score
662
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
No, america has the richest middle class, it is just that it is the developed country with some of the highest poverty rates.

Poverty in the United States: A Snapshot | National Center for Law and Economic Justice

he Census Bureau reports that 46.2 million people were living in poverty in the United States in 2011 -- the largest number of persons counted as poor in the 53 years of poverty measurements.

The poverty rate (the percentage of all people in the United States who were poor) also remained at record high levels: 15 percent for all Americans and 21.9 percent for children.

Personal income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personal income -> 27.5k a year on average in 2011. A low only surpassed in 2010.

Per_capita_US_income.png

As opposed to nearly 30k high in 2006 when Bush was in office.

So this is the data that says that america has the poorest middle class. And that is not true. It has a low personal income. But then again, lets compare it to the UK.

Child poverty facts and figures | Child Poverty Action Group

Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this, the average income in the UK is 499*4*12 pounds = 24k pounds = 36.5k $. But the UK has poverty issues too.

But we can see that the average personal income discrepancy between the UK and the USA. 24k$ to 36.5k $. This however doesn't reflect on the notion of income of the middle class. I normally consider the middle class to be people who work in fields that require college education. And for people who have college education, working in the USA is a dream come true. Some of the highest salaries for college-educated people are in the USA. So the USA has arguably one of the richest middle classes in the world, I don't know if THE richest, but one of the the richest, but the problem lies in the fact that the middle class is shrinking and many aren't a part of it.
If you knew how many Americans with college degrees were working at McDonald's, you wouldn't say that is a dream come true. We even have tons of unemployed or underemployed ENGINEERS.

If I were an engineer I would laugh at the idea of coming here. You have WAY better chances of a job in China or India.
 

The Man

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
5,140
Reaction score
1,696
Location
York, Pennsylvania
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
If I were an engineer I would laugh at the idea of coming here. You have WAY better chances of a job in China or India.

Most people also have a way better chance of getting laid if they go to a whore house or pick up a hooker. What's your point again?
 

CanadaJohn

Canadian Conservative
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
28,764
Reaction score
20,448
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

Yep. You tell em, John. Canada isn't even a country, socialist or otherwise. It is just the part of North America nobody else really wanted :lamo


Just kidding. couldn't resist

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

Facts are or the are not. I don't know.

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

Yep.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.

Yep. Lot of fraud schemes going on too. People were doing all sorts of crazy things like setting up two or 3 companies. They would buy condemned falling down properties for a few grand with company A, "sell" them to company "B" for some stated outlandish price with financing provided by company C. That would create the illusion the properties were worth the outlandish price and they would refi with a real lender and walk away with tons of cash and stick the lenders with foreclosing on properties that had more liability attached to them than worth doing to foreclosures. Another variation was to get hard money investors in a company C, finance the property with DT/Note in the name of the investor, and then company B would take the money and run and company C would disappear but could argue that they were making bad investments not doing fraud if they got tracked down and charged.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.

But Canada - along with America and most of the rest of the first-world nations - is a socialized democracy. Canada is not completely socialist, but does include some tenets of socialism...and that's a good thing.
 

YoungConserv

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
3,083
Reaction score
601
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I would say our larger level of imigration than these other country has a lot to do with that number as we are continually adding poverty.
 

Neomalthusian

DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
3,009
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Is anyone else tired as **** of the partisan political pandering to the middle class as I am?
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Is anyone else tired as **** of the partisan political pandering to the middle class as I am?

I am tired of economic pandering to the poor, the middle class, and the wealthy.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
I've looked this over and I wish I understood better how they came up with these figures. What is "wealth" and how do you determine it?

Surely every Australian doesn't have 5 times the money his US counterpart has. So, if this is just dividing population by GDP or something, there is no comparison here at all. We have a larger population than many of those countries combined. Our land mass is greater than all those countries combined except 2.

I doubt we're number one at anything but military anymore but 27th? Really? I think we're in better shape than most other people anywhere. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm usually a pessimist. I don't know whats got into me.



So how is it that capitalism is doing so poorly in America and yet it does so much better for people in other countries where socialism is more prevalent?

Can we get a logical answer besides the wimpy "if you don't like it, leave!" copout?

Big Lie: America Doesn't Have #1 Richest Middle-Class in the World...We're Ranked 27th! | Alternet

America is the richest country on Earth. We have the most millionaires, the most billionaires and our wealthiest citizens have garnered more of the planet's riches than any other group in the world. We even have hedge fund managers who make in one hour as much as the average family makes in 21 years!

This opulence is supposed to trickle down to the rest of us, improving the lives of everyday Americans. At least that's what free-market cheerleaders repeatedly promise us.

Unfortunately, it's a lie, one of the biggest ever perpetrated on the American people.

URW83lMvrneYqwWf_fDidPxc2ib6LflMAiSvwew4jY90vqa2DCXYQHnoP4_wrCVfwxEd8GjoZRUcHlFMnMtPuBMJxTcCi4-LFvELvIK12fbvXVNOABYG2uqlrbhE0dscLA
 

Rainman05

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
10,032
Reaction score
4,964
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If you knew how many Americans with college degrees were working at McDonald's, you wouldn't say that is a dream come true. We even have tons of unemployed or underemployed ENGINEERS.

If I were an engineer I would laugh at the idea of coming here. You have WAY better chances of a job in China or India.

Nobody is saying that being an engineer/arhitect/doctor/etc is a guaranteed job. Sure, there are plenty of people with degrees in art and photography that work the same jobs people who dropped out of college. But it doesn't mean that you can put them on the same level. I think you will find that the unemployment level among people who graduated from such colleges is far lower than those who graduated from the others.

As for working in the USA. There are 2 kinds of people.
People who go to the USA and search for work.
And people who go to the USA because they got a contract to work there. I, as well as most Europeans, are here.
 

YoungConserv

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
3,083
Reaction score
601
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I've looked this over and I wish I understood better how they came up with these figures. What is "wealth" and how do you determine it?

Surely every Australian doesn't have 5 times the money his US counterpart has. So, if this is just dividing population by GDP or something, there is no comparison here at all. We have a larger population than many of those countries combined. Our land mass is greater than all those countries combined except 2.

I doubt we're number one at anything but military anymore but 27th? Really? I think we're in better shape than most other people anywhere. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm usually a pessimist. I don't know whats got into me.
Again there is no other country that imports poverty like we do in form of imigration.
 

Grand Mal

bas air son Eachin
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
40,071
Reaction score
21,670
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
1. Canada is not a socialist country - destroys your argument

2. The link immediately pops up a request for donations to defeat Boehner and the Republicans - nothing like choosing an unbiased source to support your argument

3. America, more than any other country in the world has a "me-now" society that demands everything at once even if they can't afford it - far too much of the American middle-class wealth is cancelled out by increasingly large debt and a reliance on government.

4. Countries like Canada, and I suspect the number one on the list Australia, didn't have our housing market decimated by shady bankers and even shadier buyers who couldn't afford houses yet bought them driving up the paper wealth until the ponzie scheme collapsed.

'Deregulation!' 'Deregulation!' It was the mantra hyped to kick the US economy into overdrive but surprise! surprise! corporate greed killed the goose. It'll happen again, too, given the chance.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
What does that have to do with the topic or the question I posed? This isn't about politics, it's about economics. I think immigration is in a different thread. Or am I missing your point?


Again there is no other country that imports poverty like we do in form of imigration.
 

Grand Mal

bas air son Eachin
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
40,071
Reaction score
21,670
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
Again there is no other country that imports poverty like we do in form of imigration.

You sure that the US has a higher level of immigration than Canada and Australia?
You might want to fact-check. I've read that the US is 'way down the list, per capita.
 

YoungConserv

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
3,083
Reaction score
601
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
You sure that the US has a higher level of immigration than Canada and Australia?
You might want to fact-check. I've read that the US is 'way down the list, per capita.

We have averaged 1 mill + over the last ten years Canada averaged .25 mill a year. As far as per capita I have no idea but I've never thought of it as a good aunalitic tool as it favors smaller sample sizes.
 

Grand Mal

bas air son Eachin
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
40,071
Reaction score
21,670
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
We have averaged 1 mill + over the last ten years Canada averaged .25 mill a year. As far as per capita I have no idea but I've never thought of it as a good aunalitic tool as it favors smaller sample sizes.

yeesh.
What's an 'aunalitic' tool? My guess is you mean 'analytic' and if you don't see why per capita matters you don't have any understanding of how statistics work. It doesn't favour smaller sample sizes at all. It's absolutely neutral.
If your numbers are right (and I have no reason to dispute them) then Canada, with .25 immigrants in .1 population, has had more than twice the immigration that the US has, and I bet Australia is even higher.
 

YoungConserv

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
3,083
Reaction score
601
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
yeesh.
What's an 'aunalitic' tool? My guess is you mean 'analytic' and if you don't see why per capita matters you don't have any understanding of how statistics work. It doesn't favour smaller sample sizes at all. It's absolutely neutral.
If your numbers are right (and I have no reason to dispute them) then Canada, with .25 immigrants in .1 population, has had more than twice the immigration that the US has, and I bet Australia is even higher.
I just think that ignores the problems of scale that come with dealing with larger populations. I see the value of per capita but because of the complications they often give in acurate pictures.
 

Grand Mal

bas air son Eachin
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
40,071
Reaction score
21,670
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
I just think that ignores the problems of scale that come with dealing with larger populations. I see the value of per capita but because of the complications they often give in acurate pictures.

'Problems of scale' would be proportionately larger in smaller populations, no? And I don't know what you mean by 'complications' that give inaccurate pictures.
Just curious- do you have spell-check enabled?
 
Top Bottom