All four former officers involved in George Floyd's killing now face charges, Sen. Klobuchar says

[Jack Fabulous]

Re: AG Keith Ellison to elevate charges against officer who knelt on Floyd's neck....

The worst thing that could happen in this case, would be the prosecutor overreaches, and the trial ends without a conviction.

I can't imagine a scenario where the defense could credibly claim that Chauvin wasn't fully aware that Floyd would eventually die from the hold being applied to him.

2nd degree murder seems like a slam dunk.

 

[Guno]

Re: AG Keith Ellison to elevate charges against officer who knelt on Floyd's neck....

3 more cops charged in George Floyd death, other officer’s murder charge upgraded

George Floyd death: 3 cops charged, Derek Chauvin murder charge upgraded

 

[Pound4abrown]

Re: AG Keith Ellison to elevate charges against officer who knelt on Floyd's neck....

The worst thing that could happen in this case, would be the prosecutor overreaches, and the trial ends without a conviction.

No argument there.

 

[Redress]

Moderator's Warning:

Threads merged.

 

[Bullseye]

Re: AG Keith Ellison to elevate charges against officer who knelt on Floyd's neck....

The worst thing that could happen in this case, would be the prosecutor overreaches, and the trial ends without a conviction.

That's what I was thinking. Raising the degree strokes the emotions but also adds elements that have to be proved.

Given that states have different statutes defining second degree murder this is a pretty good generalized discussion of the crime

Second degree murder is generally defined as intentional murder that lacks premeditation, is intended to only cause bodily harm, and demonstrates an extreme indifference to human life. The exact legal definition of this crime will vary by jurisdiction.
While some states don't use the term "second-degree murder," they probably still divide the crime of murder into two different degrees and impose lower sentences for the lesser crime.

 

[sjmay]

And they may get some help from one of the others to lighten their own sentence if there was a premeditation or an order of intent from him to them.

Possibly, but he wasn't even the first officer on the scene, he rolled up on it as the first two officers were trying to get him in the car, I'm thinking he took over halfway being senior etc, but I don't know if there was enough time for premeditation etc.

I think hey had a slam dunk on 3rd degree murder, and they kowtowed to political pressure and are now running 50/50.

Smart defense lawyer will hammer this in trial, that even the prosecution didn't think there was intent until xxxxxxxxxxxxx etc.

 

[longview]

Re: AG Keith Ellison to elevate charges against officer who knelt on Floyd's neck....

I can't imagine a scenario where the defense could credibly claim that Chauvin wasn't fully aware that Floyd would eventually die from the hold being applied to him.

2nd degree murder seems like a slam dunk.

Perhaps, but proving the intent still could be rough.
The trial will almost certainly be moved to another county, and the risks of a jury seeing all the elements,
may not be as good. I just think murder 2 is a gamble.

 

[JANFU]

That the prosecutor’s office is interpreting the same information as murder three one day and murder two another day only sows reasonable doubt that he is guilty of murder two.

Would that evidence be presented to the Judge for new charges?

 

[Napoleon]

Would that evidence be presented to the Judge for new charges?

No. He can be charged with whatever the DA wants to charge him with. An indictment is another matter and a different procedure that requires evidence. But you can be sure the defense will raise this waffling at trial if he has a competent attorney.

 

[dixon01767]

I think it is a large risk, to look good for the press! They should go with the sure thing!

Its to look good for the 1000s raging in the streets in hopes that it will appease them.

 

[dixon01767]

I think hey had a slam dunk on 3rd degree murder, and they kowtowed to political pressure and are now running 50/50..

Is rioting, arson and looting in the streets now considered "political pressure" in the US?

 

[longview]

Its to look good for the 1000s raging in the streets in hopes that it will appease them.

But the risk of a mot guilty verdict is greater, and that would be very bad.

 

[JANFU]

No. He can be charged with whatever the DA wants to charge him with. An indictment is another matter and a different procedure that requires evidence. But you can be sure the defense will raise this waffling at trial if he has a competent attorney.

Just heard the AG- from what I understand the Felony Assault,1st or 2nd degree, resulting in death, intent is not required - he referred to The Felony Doctrine- something I am unfamiliar with, but guess it is past practices deemed legal when charging??

 

[RetiredUSN]

Hopefully, they will all get a cell with the biggest dick in the joint.

 

[sjmay]

Just heard the AG- from what I understand the Felony Assault,1st or 2nd degree, resulting in death, intent is not required - he referred to The Felony Doctrine- something I am unfamiliar with, but guess it is past practices deemed legal when charging??

He's gonna try and charge him with Felony Murder? Wow......that's a stretch.....they are going to have to prove that what was being done was a felony, and not poor judgement from a cop trying to subdue a suspect. Man, I can't believe they just don't take 3rd degree murder and slam dunk it, he's convicted, and he's a ex-cop in prison, not gonna have a fun 20 years....probably won't last long enough to serve it all.....but they are risking a not guilty verdict to look good.....

 

[JANFU]

He's gonna try and charge him with Felony Murder? Wow......that's a stretch.....they are going to have to prove that what was being done was a felony, and not poor judgement from a cop trying to subdue a suspect. Man, I can't believe they just don't take 3rd degree murder and slam dunk it, he's convicted, and he's a ex-cop in prison, not gonna have a fun 20 years....probably won't last long enough to serve it all.....but they are risking a not guilty verdict to look good.....

3rd Degree can always be added, yes/no?

 

[sjmay]

3rd Degree can always be added, yes/no?

Can be yes....I just think they are playing with fire to appease people instead of doing the smart thing and convicting him for sure.

There's no way they nail the other 3 on murder charges, and Minnesota, from what I saw, does not have aiding and abetting statue, it's aiding an offender etc, might be a distinction without a difference, but aiding an offender is going to be a much lesser charge.

 

[JANFU]

Can be yes....I just think they are playing with fire to appease people instead of doing the smart thing and convicting him for sure.

There's no way they nail the other 3 on murder charges, and Minnesota, from what I saw, does not have aiding and abetting statue, it's aiding an offender etc, might be a distinction without a difference, but aiding an offender is going to be a much lesser charge.

It appears they do
3 Other Officers Charged; Chauvin Murder Charge Upgraded: Live Updates - The New York Times

The three, Thomas Lane, 37, J. Alexander Kueng, 26, and Tou Thao, 34, were charged with aiding and abetting murder, court records show. Mr. Kueng was in custody on Wednesday, county jail records showed. The authorities said they were in the process of arresting Mr. Lane and Mr. Thao.

The fourth, Derek Chauvin, 44, who was arrested last week, faces an increased charge of second-degree murder.

 

[Hatuey]

Some seem to be going with the 'he meant to harm, not kill' defense.

Let's see how it plays out.

Ja sam Baba Yaga [emoji328]

 

[Crosscheck]

Re: AG Keith Ellison to elevate charges against officer who knelt on Floyd's neck....

Probably upped to 2nd degree since the kneeling cop was on his neck nearly 3mins after they couldn't find a pulse.
Wonder, though, where will they hold this trial? Can't imagine a place they could get a "fair" trial.

His defense attorney will plead they can't get a fair trial anywhere in the US. And partly true as unless one has been living in a cave everyone in the US has seen George Floyd die a dozen times so far.

Of course the officer could just plead guilty and not need a jury...… Just kidding there. This trial will luckily get started by next year this time and then will be drawn out with the traditional trainload of appeals.

 

[sjmay]

It appears they do
3 Other Officers Charged; Chauvin Murder Charge Upgraded: Live Updates - The New York Times

I think they just used phrasing everyone is used to, I looked at the MN statues the other day, couldn't find anything other than aiding an offender.

 

[sjmay]

Some seem to be going with the 'he meant to harm, not kill' defense.

Let's see how it plays out.

Ja sam Baba Yaga [emoji328]

I don't think it's a defense, I think it's reasonable being that WANT a conviction, not being certain you can get one if you have to prove intent.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

That the prosecutor’s office is interpreting the same information as murder three one day and murder two another day only sows reasonable doubt that he is guilty of murder two.

My initial reaction to the increased charge is that they didn't believe they could prove intent the day they charged him with third degree murder, and the only reason they added second degree murder was so they could charge the other three with something. They couldn't charge aiding and abetting third degree murder because you can't intentionally aid the commission of a crime that the offender didn't intend to commit.

The charge itself is almost impossible to prove with this set of circumstances. Second degree murder is non-premeditated but intentional. In order to convict on that ground, the prosecution will have to prove that the four decided to murder Floyd in the heat of the moment, but without making any communications with each other to do so. (I am assuming if there was audio of the officers conspiring to kill Floyd while he was restrained we would have heard about it by now.) See the text of the statute:

609.05 LIABILITY FOR CRIMES OF ANOTHER.
§Subdivision 1. Aiding, abetting; liability. A person is criminally liable for a crime committed by another if the person intentionally aids, advises, hires, counsels, or conspires with or otherwise procures the other to commit the crime.

So the allegation is that the group of three officers intentionally aided Chauvin in the spontaneous killing of Floyd without making any indication that they were doing so, and without Chauvin signaling that his intent was to kill Floyd?

It is entirely likely that the increased charge was levied for no reason other than prosecutors decided they had to charge the other three with SOMETHING and this was the only way to do it.

Unless there is some bombshell evidence the state hasn't disclosed yet, I predict all three will walk on the aiding and abetting charge, and Chauvin will be acquitted of the second degree charge. (If the jury isn't hell-bent on convicting, that is.)

 

[Josie]

I am very curious about the relationship between Floyd and the officer. They knew each other - they worked together. I wonder if there's something else there that we'll learn later....

 

[maxparrish]

Elevated charge against Chauvin to 2nd degree murder and brought charges on the others. This is the right move.

George Floyd: All four former officers involved in his killing now face charges, Sen. Klobuchar says - CNN

(CNN)Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison is increasing charges against former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin to second-degree murder in George Floyd's killing and also charging the other three officers involved in the incident, according to a tweet from US Sen. Amy Klobuchar.

Ellison's official announcement is expected to come Wednesday afternoon, more than a week after Floyd was killed while in police custody in Minneapolis, sparking nationwide protests that call for the end to police violence against black citizens.​

That depends on the criteria for what "right" means in "the right move". From a legal tactics perspective it is the "right move" if the jury is allowed to consider a lessor charge. If not, its a bad move.

And from a "lawful" perspective I am increasingly convinced there may be no right move. There is little to prove "intent", nothing to show asphyxia as the cause of death, and reputedly it is an approved procedure in the department.

Even 3rd degree murder is a stretch. Maybe 2nd degree manslaughter … maybe.