Adam and Eve, Original Sin

[calamity]

Ok, this is something that has had me dumbfounded, for years. Maybe one of you "believers" can help me out on this.

It's a given that like the tale of Noah's Ark, which a vast majority of Christians agree is not a factual historical account, the story of Adam and Eve is just an allegory. Very few people today still believe that there really was a Garden of Eden wherein Adam's rib begot the first mortal to be seduced by a snake which, thereby, forever angered the Lord to such lengths that he vengefully condemns thousands of future generations to hell. However, Christian base their entire belief system: Man's Original Sin and its atonement by Christ; on the Adam and Eve story being real.

What gives?

 

[Goshin]

Whether allegorical or literal, it is about the fall of humanity, when mankind achieved full sentience and an understanding of good and evil, and the capacity to choose evil consciously. As such the message remains the same obviously.

Who, above the age of consent, could look at humanity and think anything other than that we are tainted with Original Sin?

 

[Paschendale]

And to choose good consciously. Which most people do. So how are we worse off (or "fallen") for gaining that? How would have been better off as perpetually ignorant, or essentially as monkeys? I don't think we have anything to be ashamed of merely for growing up. That's not a taint. That's just life getting more complicated because we are now more complicated.

 

[Fisher]

Ok, this is something that has had me dumbfounded, for years. Maybe one of you "believers" can help me out on this.

It's a given that like the tale of Noah's Ark, which a vast majority of Christians agree is not a factual historical account, the story of Adam and Eve is just an allegory. Very few people today still believe that there really was a Garden of Eden wherein Adam's rib begot the first mortal to be seduced by a snake which, thereby, forever angered the Lord to such lengths that he vengefully condemns thousands of future generations to hell. However, Christian base their entire belief system: Man's Original Sin and its atonement by Christ; on the Adam and Eve story being real.

What gives?

What gives is that anyone who uses quotes around the word believers really isn't going to be satisfied with any faith-based answer.

 

[Logicman]

Ok, this is something that has had me dumbfounded, for years. Maybe one of you "believers" can help me out on this.

It's a given that like the tale of Noah's Ark, which a vast majority of Christians agree is not a factual historical account, the story of Adam and Eve is just an allegory. Very few people today still believe that there really was a Garden of Eden wherein Adam's rib begot the first mortal to be seduced by a snake which, thereby, forever angered the Lord to such lengths that he vengefully condemns thousands of future generations to hell. However, Christian base their entire belief system: Man's Original Sin and its atonement by Christ; on the Adam and Eve story being real.

What gives?

Where did you get the idea that the vast majority of Christians reject the story of Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark? You probably didn't canvass many mainstream conservative churches.

If anyone winds up in Hell IT'S THEIR OWN FAULT, for rejecting Jesus' salvation.

 

[ashurbanipal]

Very few people really understand the story of Adam and Eve. It's very unfortunate that the theology of an entire religion (practically) is founded upon it.

 

[ecofarm]

The garden of eden is the agricultural revolution, which we scientifically know occurred in the fertile crescent ~13k yo. Such a discovery allows families to multiply at unheard of speed and without competition. The tower of babel is also the ag revolution, as families spread out into a new frontier.

Or... It was a magic garden and very very tall tower.

 

[nota bene]

What gives is that anyone who uses quotes around the word believers really isn't going to be satisfied with any faith-based answer.

My thought too, that and "agenda."

 

[nota bene]

Very few people really understand the story of Adam and Eve. It's very unfortunate that the theology of an entire religion (practically) is founded upon it.

Which religion would that be? The one of which you don't even mention Jesus Christ and His resurrection?

 

[Ray410]

What gives is that anyone who uses quotes around the word believers really isn't going to be satisfied with any faith-based answer.

I agree and would take it a step further and wonder if there was even any sincerity in purporting to seek a faith based answer.

 

[Rainman05]

Ok, this is something that has had me dumbfounded, for years. Maybe one of you "believers" can help me out on this.

It's a given that like the tale of Noah's Ark, which a vast majority of Christians agree is not a factual historical account, the story of Adam and Eve is just an allegory. Very few people today still believe that there really was a Garden of Eden wherein Adam's rib begot the first mortal to be seduced by a snake which, thereby, forever angered the Lord to such lengths that he vengefully condemns thousands of future generations to hell. However, Christian base their entire belief system: Man's Original Sin and its atonement by Christ; on the Adam and Eve story being real.

What gives?

Why do you care? You're not a Christian.

But I'll indulge you. The whole Adam and Eve story is about making a choice. the tree of consciousness is a methaphor for making a conscious decision. Eve decided to take the apple despite being asked to not do so by God. It's like if your dad asked you NOT to take the car out for a drive without him and you did so anyway, ran it into a brick wall and broke it. You deserve to be punished for that action (the exile from Eden). But you also deserve a chance to earn forgiveness and mend the relationship between you two, and that chance to earn your fathers' forgiveness comes from your father. You can't just willy nilly do the laundry for 2 weeks and then say: ok, now you have to forgive me!. he has to say: this is what you need to do to be forgiven. this is what Jesus is, the one who mends the fence through the forgiveness of Mankind, dying for the sins of Mankind, forgiveness promised by God.

Get it?

 

[calamity]

Whether allegorical or literal, it is about the fall of humanity, when mankind achieved full sentience and an understanding of good and evil, and the capacity to choose evil consciously. As such the message remains the same obviously.

Who, above the age of consent, could look at humanity and think anything other than that we are tainted with Original Sin?

I guess I would disagree with the "fall of humanity", because that implies that we once were perfect, which I simply cannot buy. However, I do agree that the Adam and Eve story tries--and, it does a good job of it, I must say---to differentiate man from the other creatures by making clear our self-awareness, especially regarding knowing right from wrong.

Empathy is another aspect of that whole equation. Although I would swear my dog knows right from wrong, at least in rudimentary form, she has not idea of empathy. If I'm sick or hurt, she still acts as rambunctious as ever. If another dog nearby is being punished, she just gets away from the negative energy as quickly as possible. Dogs and other animals seem to exhibit much more selfish behavior than does man.

I bring that up because the story of Christ's atonement seems to be a selfless act grounded in empathy. It's the one thing I get out of all His teachings: Christ empathized with those who succumbed to temptation. He loved the sinners.

 

[nota bene]

Do you think that's why He loves us?

 

[calamity]

Why do you care? You're not a Christian.

But I'll indulge you. The whole Adam and Eve story is about making a choice. the tree of consciousness is a methaphor for making a conscious decision. Eve decided to take the apple despite being asked to not do so by God. It's like if your dad asked you NOT to take the car out for a drive without him and you did so anyway, ran it into a brick wall and broke it. You deserve to be punished for that action (the exile from Eden). But you also deserve a chance to earn forgiveness and mend the relationship between you two, and that chance to earn your fathers' forgiveness comes from your father. You can't just willy nilly do the laundry for 2 weeks and then say: ok, now you have to forgive me!. he has to say: this is what you need to do to be forgiven. this is what Jesus is, the one who mends the fence through the forgiveness of Mankind, dying for the sins of Mankind, forgiveness promised by God.

Get it?

Not to be flippant, but we are not socialists. Why should all of man take the rap for Eve's sin? Why should all of us benefit from Christ's sacrifice?

I don't think I like that part. It's like saying all white people must atone for what a few slave holders did 200 years ago.

 

[calamity]

Do you think that's why He loves us?

Empathy? No. The love is in being willing to look past our sins, to understand sin is a part of our nature, empathizing with it.

Empathy is just something that is uniquely human. And, Christ dying on a cross while forgiving his tormentors represents the ultimate empathy--he knows the people are ignorant and caught up in mob mentality. He understands.

 

[opendebate]

And to choose good consciously. Which most people do. So how are we worse off (or "fallen") for gaining that? How would have been better off as perpetually ignorant, or essentially as monkeys? I don't think we have anything to be ashamed of merely for growing up. That's not a taint. That's just life getting more complicated because we are now more complicated.

best post ever.

 

[Rainman05]

Not to be flippant, but we are not socialists. Why should all of man take the rap for Eve's sin? Why should all of us benefit from Christ's sacrifice?

I don't think I like that part. It's like saying all white people must atone for what a few slave holders did 200 years ago.

... Adam ate the apple too you know. Sure it was Eve that handed it to him, but he ate it. He chose to ate it too despite knowing better.

We are talking about 2 different things. What you are saying regarding slavery is a legal issue. A man is not to blame for the sins of another man. There is no such thing as a pan-ethnic trans-temporal mechanism that binds people to faults done by other people related to them long ago. Also, slavery is not a white invention, it existed since ever. It was however white people that ended slaver on a worldwide scale.

 

[calamity]

What gives is that anyone who uses quotes around the word believers really isn't going to be satisfied with any faith-based answer.

I'm respectfully trying to ascertain what gives on this front. Just because people in this sub have different belief systems than I do, does not mean I'm not curious about their beliefs.

 

[Gardener]

Eve was framed!

As to this notion of original sin, however, I might point people in the direction of Augustine of Hippo, whose influence on the subject is enormous.

 

[calamity]

And to choose good consciously. Which most people do. So how are we worse off (or "fallen") for gaining that? How would have been better off as perpetually ignorant, or essentially as monkeys? I don't think we have anything to be ashamed of merely for growing up. That's not a taint. That's just life getting more complicated because we are now more complicated.

I see the Adam and Eve story the way you describe it too. For me it's less a fall and more a great awakening.

I think too that with the awakening comes great responsibility, and that the choices we make have consequences, sometimes dire consequences. But, unlike an antelope who spends a split second too long grazing and winds up ambushed by a large cat, our poor judgement can affect others---Eve pushing the apple on Adam, thus dooming him and the rest of humanity to toil and pain at childbirth.

 

[Goshin]

I'm respectfully trying to ascertain what gives on this front. Just because people in this sub have different belief systems than I do, does not mean I'm not curious about their beliefs.

The point is that your tone in the OP could be taken as a bit contemptuous, highlighted by the quotes around "believers".

 

[calamity]

The point is that your tone in the OP could be taken as a bit contemptuous, highlighted by the quotes around "believers".

Maybe I should have gone with people of faith instead of "believers". Either way, contempt was not my intent. I would have put it in the other sub if bashing the story was my goal.

 

[calamity]

... Adam ate the apple too you know. Sure it was Eve that handed it to him, but he ate it. He chose to ate it too despite knowing better.

We are talking about 2 different things. What you are saying regarding slavery is a legal issue. A man is not to blame for the sins of another man. There is no such thing as a pan-ethnic trans-temporal mechanism that binds people to faults done by other people related to them long ago. Also, slavery is not a white invention, it existed since ever. It was however white people that ended slaver on a worldwide scale.

OK, maybe I don't understand original sin because to me it's saying we are doomed because of what Eve and Adam did, and only through Christ can we be atoned. It is saying that every human, regardless how sinless, is stuck wearing the yoke those two hung around his neck.

I don't like that.

 

[Goshin]

Maybe I should have gone with people of faith instead of "believers". Either way, contempt was not my intent. I would have put it in the other sub if bashing the story was my goal.

Okay then. Moving along...


It isn't simply a question of collective responsibility. Nor is it merely a question of whether it would be better to remain less than fully sapient, or lacking the capacity of self-direction. It is that we are, as a whole, tainted by Original Sin... we are all sinners; "For all have sinned... there is none righteous, no not one."

Which should be obvious enough by watching the evening news...

 

[calamity]

The garden of eden is the agricultural revolution, which we scientifically know occurred in the fertile crescent ~13k yo. Such a discovery allows families to multiply at unheard of speed and without competition. The tower of babel is also the ag revolution, as families spread out into a new frontier.

Or... It was a magic garden and very very tall tower.

I always read the Cain and Abel tale as the battle between herdsmen and Agriculturalists. Adam and Eve to me was the first glimpse of human conscious thought.