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Fantasea said:There is nothing but emotion that can be used to justify abortion. Is emotion sufficient justification to terminate 50 million human lives? I don’t believe so. Anyone who disagrees is free to furnish medical, scientific, or genetic fact that justifies 50 million abortions.
How long did it take to read this? How many lives does that equal?
I agree wholeheatedly. Every instance is as unique as the life inside that womb.And the way you and vauge talk about it, it sounds like you suspect a grand conspiracy among heathen women to kill babies. The fact is there ARE 50,000,000 stories to go along with these abortions and each one is distinct.
There is no nothing convenient here at all. It saddens me to think that anyone would think (whatever the circumstances) that a life is worthless. What would you think if you moved to a new area and someone walked up to you, your brother, your Aunt and put a knife to thier throat? The person saying, "You are in my way, now I have to walk around you. Feel sorry for me even though I invited you to our new area. This is my house, my street, my sidewalk - On second thought, I don't think you are worth a damn thing because I do not know you." Then slit your brothers or Aunts throat. Then they get away with it because it is law that new folks in the area are allowed to be murdered due to the new folks being in the way.I understand the need to simplify, it makes it a whole lot easier to see a light at the end of tunnel, but truth is, the problem of abortion in our society is as refracted and complex as the 50,000,000 stories that make up its history in America. The abortion problem can't be dithered away as the acts of a bunch of ungodly, greedy, selfish women...as convenient as that might be to your cause.
Pacridge said:I'm no fan of abortion- but how does emotion justify abortion?
Doesn't the arguement basically fall to when you believe life begins? From what I can see you have some saying life begins at conception and others who seem to think it begins at birth. Isn't that the real arguement here? And if life begins prior to birth- what about birth control? Is that wrong as well?
mixedmedia said:One of the real problems I have with the Christian right these days and their take on social policy is that they seem to believe that if they simply make a bunch of rules that people must follow they are going to cure the societal ills that plague them so.
vauge said:I still think it's selfish and greedy to say that one life is worth more than another that has never even had a chance. To me the logic here is reverse.
I agree wholeheatedly. Every instance is as unique as the life inside that womb.
There is no nothing convenient here at all. It saddens me to think that anyone would think (whatever the circumstances) that a life is worthless. What would you think if you moved to a new area and someone walked up to you, your brother, your Aunt and put a knife to thier throat? The person saying, "You are in my way, now I have to walk around you. Feel sorry for me even though I invited you to our new area. This is my house, my street, my sidewalk - On second thought, I don't think you are worth a damn thing because I do not know you." Then slit your brothers or Aunts throat. Then they get away with it because it is law that new folks in the area are allowed to be murdered due to the new folks being in the way.
The scenerio is not much different than abortion in my opinion.
In my opinion:So am I correct in assuming, following this logic, that if abortion were illegal today, that women who would procure an abortion illegally would deserve the same penalty as someone who cut someone's throat in cold blood? And, perhaps, the doctors or others who perform them, as well?
vauge said:I still think it's selfish and greedy to say that one life is worth more than another that has never even had a chance. To me the logic here is reverse.
I agree wholeheatedly. Every instance is as unique as the life inside that womb.
There is no nothing convenient here at all. It saddens me to think that anyone would think (whatever the circumstances) that a life is worthless. What would you think if you moved to a new area and someone walked up to you, your brother, your Aunt and put a knife to thier throat? The person saying, "You are in my way, now I have to walk around you. Feel sorry for me even though I invited you to our new area. This is my house, my street, my sidewalk - On second thought, I don't think you are worth a damn thing because I do not know you." Then slit your brothers or Aunts throat. Then they get away with it because it is law that new folks in the area are allowed to be murdered due to the new folks being in the way.
The scenerio is not much different than abortion in my opinion.
mixedmedia said:So am I correct in assuming, following this logic, that if abortion were illegal today, that women who would procure an abortion illegally would deserve the same penalty as someone who cut someone's throat in cold blood? And, perhaps, the doctors or others who perform them, as well?
vauge said:In my opinion:
Yes. Exactly. Correctamundo.
For the record, I do not adovate violence on anyone. I am not a crazy wacko that would blow up any buildings. Crazy right wing wacko - maybe.
I can write my congressman, get involved, and pray that folks see the light.
bryanf said:Why not? If it's murder, shouldn't it be punished as such?
Yes I do believe in the death penalty. Only judged by thier piers.mixedmedia said:Wow. I am stunned. Do you support the death penalty, vauge?
vauge said:Yes I do believe in the death penalty. Only judged by thier piers.
To me this is a different topic, and we can indeed go there.
The death penalty is for those whom commit violent and dispicable crimes.
The unborn child has yet to experience life and make those descisions.
I am not on the jury for the Kansas issue, but I hope she gets life. If they give her death, I will still sleep well. I am sure that the ladies that are in prison can't wait to give her an 'attitude adjustment' if the jury convicts her.Now are you telling me that you could live with this woman being put to death? Her children left motherless and subject to state care because she was faced with a heartbreaking decision and made the choice that she felt was right for her and her family? Are you saying that she deserves the same fate as the Kansas woman all over our news right now who, with complete lack of conscience, killed that pregnant woman in Missouri?
vauge said:I am not on the jury for the Kansas issue, but I hope she gets life. If they give her death, I will still sleep well. I am sure that the ladies that are in prison can't wait to give her an 'attitude adjustment' if the jury convicts her.
Back to the hypothetical:
1. She knew if she got pregnate there would be issues with the pregnacy. Why should I feel sorry for her? I feel more sorry for the unborn kid and her other kids for having a dumbass for a mom.
2. We have a welfare system. The state could raise those kids well. Adoption system has quite a positive standard now. It's getting better everyday.
3. Heartbreaking descision? She is willing to choose her OWN life over others. I think that is selfish greed pure and simple.
4. If the mother is only concerned with "quality of life" rather than life itself, again she is the one that is not seeing the big picture.
I am concerened that you think that I am a vengeful spirit; though you may be right. I tend to think that not allowing people that have not had a chance to smell the flowers - debate on a forum - or drink that fine champaign is greedy.I am going to let go of this issue now, 'cause I believe it to be an intractably dead-end debate. But I find your lack of compassion typical of the reactionary & vengeful spirit that is currently riding high in our country. I think you guys have a lot of nerve appointing yourselves the caretakers of morality in America.
mixedmedia said:Again, I think this is a gross over-simplification.
And the way you and vauge talk about it, it sounds like you suspect a grand conspiracy among heathen women to kill babies. The fact is there ARE 50,000,000 stories to go along with these abortions and each one is distinct. I understand the need to simplify, it makes it a whole lot easier to see a light at the end of tunnel, but truth is, the problem of abortion in our society is as refracted and complex as the 50,000,000 stories that make up its history in America. The abortion problem can't be dithered away as the acts of a bunch of ungodly, greedy, selfish women...as convenient as that might be to your cause.
vauge said:I am concerened that you think that I am a vengeful spirit; though you may be right. I tend to think that not allowing people that have not had a chance to smell the flowers - debate on a forum - or drink that fine champaign is greedy.
Who is to say what is right? Is greed really wrong? If evolution were true, would that not be a positive action for the survival of the fittest?
I do not remember saying that, but it might be the Dr Pepper that is running through my viens. I did say that she was indeed a "dumbass mom" and I stand by it. She should get what the JURY gives her - my opinion be damned. The prison system would indeed take care of that lady IF she is convicted.mixedmedia said:I simply don't think it reflects well on people of spirit to speak against others in a tone of "they are stupid and get what they deserve" when it comes to matters of life and death.
I said I was Christian, never said I actually attend church. But for the sake of argument; Jesus lept in his womb, Job talked about himself as a child being in the womb. The bible refers as people LIVING in the womb.Didn't Jesus speak of reconciliation and compassion? Didn't he say that those who are without sin should cast the first stone? What is the difference between your casual indifference to the fate of the mother in my scenario and her, as you purport, selfishness and greed for choosing an abortion? And if you're going to bring up the "having a chance to breath and whistle" explanation again, then give me a passage from the bible where it says that the unborn should take precedence over the living.
Again, you might be right - but this is how I see it. The unborn are LIVING in the womb and growing. Killing for the sake of killing because they do not want that growing child - is indeed greedy. In my opinion.Hanging onto your need to take the depth from the issue of abortion and make into a simple matter of selfishness and greed...is selfish and greedy. It denotes a lack of real, in-depth understanding of the issue that I think needs to be tackled if you're going to profess a passion for one side or the other.
Unconditional love would be to love that living human being before it is birthed.American Christians (at least the ones foaming at the mouth for social influence (ie, power) at this time) are babes-in-the-woods when it comes to realizing true spiritual depth, capacity for unconditional love and the true nature of the human condition.
Thank you. You too have an excellent Christmas.I'm gonna take a break 'til after Christmas. I hope you all have a wonderful holiday weekend. And do lots of hugging and kissing. We all need it.
vauge said:I said I was Christian, never said I actually attend church. But for the sake of argument; Jesus lept in his womb, Job talked about himself as a child being in the womb. The bible refers as people LIVING in the womb.
The difference here is that you are argueing that unborn children are not living. I do have a question - is an amoeba alive?
Again, you might be right - but this is how I see it. The unborn are LIVING in the womb and growing. Killing for the sake of killing because they do not want that growing child - is indeed greedy. In my opinion.
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