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A simple Yes or No with a short explanation.

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Schweddy

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No, because a choice was made before the event.
 

gypsy0032

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You can't answer this question without qualifiers. Should abortion be allowed? Only in extreme circumstances. It should never be used as a "way out". But for this to be feasible, a lot of laws on the books need to be revamped.
 

heyjoeo

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Yes. Woman's choice.

If the life of the woman is threatened, rape cases, or if the life of the baby will be sub-par if it is born into the home. Also, if the government bans it, abortions will still happen, and they will most likely be brutal, it would not be pragmatic to try to prevent them.
 

CSA_TX

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No,
murder is murder.

per heyjoeo

Woman's choice
amazing!! what about the fathers choice. last time I checked it takes a man and a woman to make a baby
if the life of the baby will be sub-par if it is born into the home.
who gets to deside sub-par vs par.
 

heyjoeo

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Yes but if the man gets up and walks out, the woman is screwed. Who says its murder? When does "life" really start? It's extremely hard to be so cut and dry over abortion. It would be unfair for a child to be born to a 16 year old wouldn't it? Thats what I would consider subpar. A judge would have to decide that though
 

CSA_TX

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My son was born to a 17 year old jack ass and he has a great life. Much better than if it would have been ended and him not given the chance to live.

Abortion is the same as taken a 12 guage to a newborns head and pulling the trigger. It the exact same result, murder
 

Schweddy

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I tend to agree with CSA on this topic.

Taking into account that the young one is part of a man AND a woman. Yes there will be times when the man is not in the picture - that is irrelivant.

Also, if the government bans it, abortions will still happen, and they will most likely be brutal, it would not be pragmatic to try to prevent them.
Unfortuantly, you are right as well. There is no stopping it completely. But, we can do our best to slow it significantly down.
 

heyjoeo

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It shouldn't be "slowed down" but used properly. It should never be used as a "way out" of dealing with a kid. It should however be used when the life on the mother is threatened, rape, etc. Think about it, if you were raped, not only would you carry the reminder of the rape for 9 months, and every time you look at the child, it reminds you of the rape. Thats just wrong for the mother.
 

Schweddy

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That is what adoptions are for.

If I were a female that was rapped; I would do my best to get that f*cker to rot in jail.

It should however be used when the life on the mother is threatened
Who makes this determination?

If I were giving birth, I would do what my wife did. She specifically wrote in her will that if there was ever a question of dought or her death was imminant - let her die so that her child can live. I had nothing to do with that will and didn't know about it until after it was signed and sealed. I respect her more for it everyday.

It is shameful to think that one life outwieghs another in value.
God gave me a chance to live, it is only decent to allow all unborn children the same.
 

heyjoeo

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First off, a female can't be rapped, but raped. It's unfair that that said woman would have to deal with the pain of the rape, and then the result, the child, afterwards. Your wife is very noble to do this. But not all woman need to make that choice.

God should be seperate from politics, you can't use that as a justification why you're against Abortion.
 

LiberalFINGER

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God should be seperate from politics, you can't use that as a justification why you're against Abortion.
But personal beleifs are at the heart of the matter.

I posed this question in this fashion because so many people hide behind qualifiers when asked about abortion.

What about rape and incest? That's a tough call. The hard line in me would stand up and say that you can't make a rape right by murdering the by-product. The softer side would argue that the child is the only good thing to come of the attrocity. The net result for me would be to carry it full term and then get it as far away from me as possible (speedy adoption).

When is a life really a life? Look to the Peterson trial.

And just what is sub-par. My family had a very humble start. Some would consider it sub-par. Our income was well below the poverty line. I consider myself lucky to be alive.
 

LiberalFINGER

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If it were all or none, would you allow abortion?

If you had to ban all the what-if's in order to ban abortion as a birth control, would you?
 

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I agree with heyjoeo, a religious argument is meaning less to most people in a political argument. But abortion is one of those things that is anything but religious. The truth is that many, many protestant Christians supported abortion rights back in the early 1970’s.



The thing is that we need to have an honest national discourse on abortion. Abortion is not a “right” it is a procedure. The question is when and under what circumstance is this procedure available. We have to be honest about what this procedure actually does. The most extreme abortion advocate would tell you that a vaginal wart and an unborn human are equal and a woman should have unfettered rights to remove either from her body. Well the average, thinking, American knows that there is a difference.



To debate this issue I have to be consistent in my logic. For the same reason I am against unilateral disarmament of nuclear weapons, I can not see a logical argument to support pretending that abortion doesn’t exist. Legal or not it will exist and it will be available. As with nuclear weapons we can not put the gene back in the bottle once it is out. However we as a society need to honestly examine how brutal we want to be. We have to realize that in our willingness to abort “at will” what are we sacrificing? What is the cost beyond dollars and cents? What do we want our legacy to be as a race of people? Have we aborted the next Louis Pasture or Jonas Salk? Both came from very meager backgrounds and could have very well been aborted had abortion on demand been available.



But actually making abortion illegal is not the true fight today. The true fight is partial-birth-abortion. Do we as a society want to have a legal procedure that if preformed seconds later on the operating table would be murder instead of being preformed with the babies head still lodged in the vagina? As usual, unrestrained humans will do horrific things and we need to decide what kind of a society we want to be.



Honest pure logic can easily be used to understand what abortion really is… and that is ending human life. We do not need religion to tell us that if you don’t abort this useless lump of tissue that it will become a living breathing human. We don’t need religion to tell us that a vaginal wart could never do this. We don’t need religion to tell us that pretending they are the same is the height of dilution.



This is not a liberal / conservative issue. This is not an extreme right-wing agenda item.

 
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LiberalFINGER

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MSR, I don't think you agree with me.

I personally beleive that the way we are raised plays a major role wich includes moral, ethical, and religious upbringing.

I think you might have been thinking that you agreed with heyjoeo.
 

MSR

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I think I am a bit simplistic sometimes. I don't really want to believe that there are people who are so callus and so selfish that they can not see beyond themselves at all. But I suppose that there are these types of people.

Upbringing does impact ones understanding but I hope that through education one's understanding can be refined.

You are correct I was agreeing with heyjoeo, I made the change to my comments.
 

heyjoeo

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Well isn't there a law against partial-birth abortions already? Like 3 months or something?

It's a tough call to tell when a fetus is really alive. I strongly disagree, however, that abortion should be used as a "way out." There are plenty of ways to prevent getting pregnant in the first place, its your own damn fault if it fails.

I gotta go pick up my sister, I'll post the rest later.
 

gypsy0032

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heyjoeo said:
Yes. Woman's choice.

If the life of the woman is threatened, rape cases, or if the life of the baby will be sub-par if it is born into the home. Also, if the government bans it, abortions will still happen, and they will most likely be brutal, it would not be pragmatic to try to prevent them.
The woman made a choice the minute she decided to have sex.

I do believe that rape is a fair qualifier. I also believe that the life of the mother is a fair qualifier.

But don't throw out "choice". The choice was already made. We live in a world, sadly, where people do not lave to live with the consequences of their actions.
 

heyjoeo

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I believe that was covered in the whole "way out" strategy. You're right, we do live in a world where people do not like to live with the consequences of their actions. Much like Bush and his "crusade."

Sorry I had to use that. :p
 

MSR

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Be careful... the argument needs to be in the center of the reality... very, very few abortions are obtained by rape victims and very, very few abortions are obtained by victims of incest. These are 10th of 1% arguments and will stop the debate cold.

White females ... middle class and upper middle class... get the vast majority of abortions and there are rarely medical reasons and rarely financial reasons. This is the sad reality.

As for Pres. Bush and abortion I think if you call Bush "anti-abortion" you are not dealing with the facts. Bush has never claimed to be against abortion... only against partial-birth abortion. He does however seem to support some limits on abortion as a birth control device.

As for recent legislation against partial-birth abortion... an activist judge has over-turned the law (against the will of the people) and I suspect it will be appealed.

I am sure that you lib's out there will be using this argument when Bush makes his next judicial nomination to the supreme court. But I will not be surprised if his next nomination is neutral on the topic of abortion.
 

WKL815

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MSR hit the nail on the head.

We have to have an honest national discussion. To have a pro-abortion view, you have to disclaim a baby as a person. I've had a baby. She was the same person that came out of me August 15th, 2001 as she was August 14th, 2001 and the day before and the week before and the month before. When wasn't she that person? There's the discussion.

Amendment 14: "; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Amendment 9 basically stated:, you're rights end where another's nose begins.

An unborn person has a right to life.

It is very important to instill in people an empathy for unborn babies. It's the most primary of instincts-to protect children. "Women and children first." When I was 6 months pregnant with my girl, we went on a cruise. I was heartened to learn I was to be one of the first on the life boats if something where to happen.

People are devastated over the loss of a 3 or 4+ month pregnancy because their is a life that is lost.

I was glad to learn from the CDC website that half of all abortions are done by 8 weeks. 2 months seems reasonable to allow a woman to make the choice to end the pregnancy. After that, let him or her follow due process of law...take it to court.

So much to this issue, but it all seems clear that the reasoning behind Roe v Wade was unconstitutional.
 

heyjoeo

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WKL815 said:
An unborn person has a right to life.
To me, that sounds like an inherant contridiction. How can someone who is unborn, be a life? That's like saying every sperm that is wasted was a potential life, because it has the possibility to become one. Miscarriages happen, people don't call that murder (or even manslaughter, people get convinced for manslaughter when they don't mean to kill or it was an accident).

As I've said before, I still don't think abortions should be used as a way out. Also, I think it is a good thing that most abortions happen in the first 8 weeks. It really is a tough issue, and America is very divided over it. I just don't think you can blanket the issue and be totally against it.
 

WKL815

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How can someone who is unborn, be a life?

It is futile to debate this issue with you.

Please feel free to openly espouse that nugget of pure gold to any and everyone though. ESPECIALLY 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9th months pregnant women and their husbands and mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers and grandmothers and grandfathers and their OB/GNYs and prenatal nurses. Please be sure to do that.
 
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Schweddy

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How can someone who is unborn, be a life?
If a chicken egg is hours old and you hold it up to a candle - you see movement inside - is it alive?

If an egg is days old and you see it move all by itself - is it alive?

If an egg is much older and something is chipping from the inside moments to breathing fresh air - is it alive?

If you crush that egg and see blood and guts spray out of the sides of your boots at any of the point in the eggs cycle indicated above - was it alive?

At which point being unborn were it NOT a life?
 
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