A Question for the Skeptics...

[Overitall]

So the Bab was more competent at teaching his followers than Jesus?

Obviously not since Christianity is the most popular religion in the world at 31% while Baháʼí only has .07% ranked 12. Maybe in another 1000 years that might flip.

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Drowning Man]

Unless it's the truth, of course.

Actually, in this case, the truth value is irrelevant. What is being discussed is being able to give evidence of a claim. The claim can be true or false, but either way, in terms of personal revelation, if you try to pass it on, it is no longer personal revelation, but hearsay.

 

[nota bene]

Actually, in this case, the truth value is irrelevant. What is being discussed is being able to give evidence of a claim. The claim can be true or false, but either way, in terms of personal revelation, if you try to pass it on, it is no longer personal revelation, but hearsay.

Whatever you say.

 

[Drowning Man]

Whatever you say.

What claims from another of personal revelation would you accept?

From a Satanist?
From a tribal American Indian?
From a Buddhist?

How about from someone claiming to have taken a ride on an alien spaceship?
Or been to the home of some lovely hobbits?

I'm betting none of these. You'd want something more substantial than their say-so.

Now, why should anyone believe you if you claimed that you had a personal revelation from your God?

 

[nota bene]

What claims from another of personal revelation would you accept?

From a Satanist?
From a tribal American Indian?
From a Buddhist?

How about from someone claiming to have taken a ride on an alien spaceship?
Or been to the home of some lovely hobbits?

I'm betting none of these. You'd want something more substantial than their say-so.

Now, why should anyone believe you if you claimed that you had a personal revelation from your God?

I think your including "Satanists" is very silly. Very.

As I've already said, if the person is a sober-minded person known for not embroidering or hyperbole, I would listen. I wouldn't even be surprised is a Native American or Buddhist shared a "revelation," and I would listen respectfully. I don't know what conclusions I would draw until I heard what was actually said.

But stating that one has seen an angel is not a "revelation." If I state that I've seen an angel, presumably you would want to learn the particulars so that you could evaluate for yourself. Or perhaps not--perhaps your thing is instantly dismissing anything that doesn't fit into your determined disbelief.

 

[Drowning Man]

I think your including "Satanists" is very silly. Very.

/shrug

I try not to be biased when it comes to things that I have no reason to believe in. I treat them all equally...until I have reason to believe in something.

As I've already said, if the person is a sober-minded person known for not embroidering or hyperbole, I would listen. I wouldn't even be surprised is a Native American or Buddhist shared a "revelation," and I would listen respectfully. I don't know what conclusions I would draw until I heard what was actually said.

Wouldn't their beliefs directly contradict your own? What you "know" to be true?

But stating that one has seen an angel is not a "revelation."

Sure it is. At least, in the way that I'm discussing it. A "revelation", in this context, is a personal experience that proves to the person who experienced it, that something is true. Something not just mundane, but incredible...

If I state that I've seen an angel, presumably you would want to learn the particulars so that you could evaluate for yourself.

Not really. I don't care about what is claimed when it comes to incredible claims, so much as why I should have reason to believe it.

A guy stuck in a padded cell may ramble on and on about invisible purple unicorns. IMO, I'm not all that interested in the particulars of his beliefs or his claims of personal experiences with the creatures, unless I first have reason to believe that his claims are worth listening to.

Or perhaps not--perhaps your thing is instantly dismissing anything that doesn't fit into your determined disbelief.

Well, the "determined belief" that I have that you'd be running up against, is that a tall tale requires more evidence to believe than a mundane one. And unless it's for the entertainment value, I'm not all that interested in tall tales.

 

[nota bene]

/shrug

I try not to be biased when it comes to things that I have no reason to believe in. I treat them all equally...until I have reason to believe in something.



Wouldn't their beliefs directly contradict your own? What you "know" to be true?



Sure it is. At least, in the way that I'm discussing it. A "revelation", in this context, is a personal experience that proves to the person who experienced it, that something is true. Something not just mundane, but incredible...



Not really. I don't care about what is claimed when it comes to incredible claims, so much as why I should have reason to believe it.

A guy stuck in a padded cell may ramble on and on about invisible purple unicorns. IMO, I'm not all that interested in the particulars of his beliefs or his claims of personal experiences with the creatures, unless I first have reason to believe that his claims are worth listening to.



Well, the "determined belief" that I have that you'd be running up against, is that a tall tale requires more evidence to believe than a mundane one. And unless it's for the entertainment value, I'm not all that interested in tall tales.

All I can say is that you reveal your own bias in this post. It doesn't really matter what anybody says if it doesn't fit your rigid conviction that anyone who describes an "incredible" experience is automatically not credible and that anything said is a "tall tale."

 

[Drowning Man]

All I can say is that you reveal your own bias in this post. It doesn't really matter what anybody says if it doesn't fit your rigid conviction that anyone who describes an "incredible" experience is automatically not credible and that anything said is a "tall tale."

/shrug

I'm fine with that bias, if that's what you want to call it. I am biased against incredible claims...be they about aliens, Big Foot, Nessy, a God or set of gods, Angels, Devils, etc.... A tall tale does require more evidence to believe than a mundane one.

Just don't claim that I am biased against YOUR particular incredible claim.

 

[Questerr]

Obviously not since Christianity is the most popular religion in the world at 31% while Baháʼí only has .07% ranked 12. Maybe in another 1000 years that might flip.

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But yet the Bab supposedly was better at training his followers according to you.

 

[Mircea]

Jesus’ disciples went from being fearful of death, to being willing to die for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead...if Jesus didn’t rise...what do you think changed their mind?

The violent deaths of the disciples is myth.

But, even if that were not true, there's always the Politics of Power.

Not to derail your thread, but consider the Abortion Debate.

Both sides are entrenched in their positions and they will never yield even if a compromised is reached because of the Politics of Power.

Both sides profit handsomely from the Abortion Debate Industry.

And then there's the limelight. There's always rallies, marches, protests, demonstrations, public speaking engagement, campus speaking engagements, the talk radio circuit, the cable "news" networks etc etc etc.

Both sides got a taste for the money and the power and they will never voluntarily give it up in much the same way that once government gains a power it never gives it up.

There's also the issue of mental illness.

Whoever wrote the Exodus Trilogy (Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers) -- and, no, sorry, it wasn't X-Moses -- was either a schizophrenic or had schizo-affective disorder and was OCD to boot.

 

[devildavid]

Jesus’ disciples went from being fearful of death, to being willing to die for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead...if Jesus didn’t rise...what do you think changed their mind?

Because that is how the stories were written, not because any of this actually happened.

 

[HK.227]

All good questions. I'm not sure what you mean by "faith". It's both a noun and verb. Assuming you're referring to it as a noun I'll say only God knows the heart and can judge. Consider the story of Judas.

Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and yet allowed him to be one of his Apostles. Even those who betray God can serve towards His purposes being fulfilled.

The Apostle Paul was a man of faith when he cast his vote to kill Christians. Yet a murderer of Jesus' followers became one of his greatest leaders.

We can judge a man's actions, but judging a man's heart is something not that clear cut. A person can have faith and still be a sinner. One (faith) doesn't eliminate the other (sin). Even the grandmother that goes to church on Sunday can sin on Monday. Are we going to judge a person based on the severity of their sin? To God, sin is sin.

Noun indeed.
But swearing when you hit your thumb with a hammer is hardly the same level of sin as committing genocide for fun and excitement.
Isn't the whole purpose of sin to learn from it and thereby being redeemed from it? And isn't it be preferable to learn the lesson before actually comitting the sin? Isn't that in fact what a major part of the lessons in the Bible are about?

Also, the reason for our little detour from the thread subject was considering the push that "doubting Thomas" received. Should we just expect God to always give pushes, and not have to apply any standards to faith ourselves?

 

[Fabiusbile]

Jesus’ disciples went from being fearful of death, to being willing to die for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead...if Jesus didn’t rise...what do you think changed their mind?

The Emperor's retribution.
The Orders of the Space Marines, the Holy Inquisition, the Grey Knights and the combat accountant Robout Guilliman... and let the galaxy burn!

 

[Overitall]

Noun indeed.
But swearing when you hit your thumb with a hammer is hardly the same level of sin as committing genocide for fun and excitement.
Isn't the whole purpose of sin to learn from it and thereby being redeemed from it?

This reminds me of the "thorn in the flesh" Paul had (2 Corinthians 12:7). I've read where some people think his thorn was sickness and that God sometimes gives people sickness to make them a "better" Christian. My response to that is if that's true then a person shouldn't pray for their sickness to go away but to continue in order for them to be a "better" Christian. That is the goal, afterall.

My point is that you don't have to succumb to sin in order to learn about it. I'm not sure what lessons can be learned from sin itself. Although the consequences as a result of them might have some benefit, if that's what you mean. However, most sinners know right from wrong and yet many continue to sin anyways. The only thing they might learn is how to escape some of the consequences.

And isn't it be preferable to learn the lesson before actually comitting the sin?

See above.

Isn't that in fact what a major part of the lessons in the Bible are about?

The "major part of the lessons", imo, is about God's love and forgiveness. I suppose, in that sense, sin plays a role. But then, Jesus was sinless and yet he had to learn about God's love and forgiveness just like the rest of us. So, I'm not sure being a sinner is necessary to learn about God's will.

Also, the reason for our little detour from the thread subject was considering the push that "doubting Thomas" received. Should we just expect God to always give pushes, and not have to apply any standards to faith ourselves?

Everyone gets a "little push" from God. Most just don't realize it.

1 Kings 19:11-12
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

That "whisper" is easy to miss or mistake for something else. I wonder, however, if God was to shout at us would it break our "ear-drums"?

 

[HK.227]

Everyone gets a "little push" from God. Most just don't realize it.

Agree with everything else, but here's the point.
If most don't realize, shouldn't we endeavour to become better at realizing truth and filtering out falsehood? Hence the quality control I was speaking about.

 

[Overitall]

Agree with everything else, but here's the point.
If most don't realize, shouldn't we endeavour to become better at realizing truth and filtering out falsehood? Hence the quality control I was speaking about.

Absolutely. I think anyone can agree that intuition and/or conscience plays a significant role in our lives. I consider our innate sources intricate in God's "still small voice". Learning to pay attention to them may make a difference in our decisions concerning right and wrong.

Pilate asked the question "What is truth?" while it was standing right in front of him. To me it illustrates how easy it is to be looking at truth and yet not recognize it. In Pilate's case, I wonder how much he really wanted to know what truth is. Hunger determines whether one eats or not. If you're not hungry it doesn't matter what the food looks like or smells like. You simply lack an appetite.

 

[watsup]

Absolutely. I think anyone can agree that intuition and/or conscience plays a significant role in our lives. I consider our innate sources intricate in God's "still small voice". Learning to pay attention to them may make a difference in our decisions concerning right and wrong.

Pilate asked the question "What is truth?" while it was standing right in front of him. To me it illustrates how easy it is to be looking at truth and yet not recognize it. In Pilate's case, I wonder how much he really wanted to know what truth is. Hunger determines whether one eats or not. If you're not hungry it doesn't matter what the food looks like or smells like. You simply lack an appetite.

There is no indication or evidence whatsoever that “God” plays a role in intuition or conscience.

 

[Overitall]

There is no indication or evidence whatsoever that “God” plays a role in intuition or conscience.

Are you a descendant of Pilate, perhaps?

 

[Mulefoot]

There is no indication or evidence whatsoever that “God” plays a role in my intuition or conscience.

FIFY

 

[bomberfox]

Murdering children is righteous?

Yep according to jehovah if “god’s chosen” do it.

There is not a thing that cant be excused under this doctrine which makes me worry about believers.

 

[bomberfox]

They committed suicide...nice try, though...

Doesnt make them much different.

 

[bomberfox]

All I can say is that you reveal your own bias in this post. It doesn't really matter what anybody says if it doesn't fit your rigid conviction that anyone who describes an "incredible" experience is automatically not credible and that anything said is a "tall tale."

Not really, it just must pass the show test. Incredible claims require incredible evidence.

 

[nota bene]

Not really, it just must pass the show test. Incredible claims require incredible evidence.

Just out of curiosity, what about this hypothetical: A tumor consumes the top of a femur, but the bone spontaneously regenerates itself and the tumor disappears? That's "incredible," wouldn't you say?

 

[KevinKohler]

Maybe dragons are one of the forms angels chose to appear as. Or they appeared in any form. Nothing says they are limited in what form they reveal themselves.

According to the catholic faith, what you are describing, are demons.

 

[Overitall]

According to the catholic faith, what you are describing, are demons.

Didn't know that. I suppose an angel from God would keep that in mind if God sent him to a Catholic.