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A question for the Libertarians

What nonsense. 🤣

I'm 100% right. You're 100% wrong. You never even knew that ALL libertarians oppose Direct taxes, if you HAD known that, then you would not have asked if libertarians support "incentives" on Direct Taxes. . . or on subsidies. ALL libertarians oppose subsidies, or any forms of market manipulations by the government.


This is some interesting stuff, there, unfortunately it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the libertarian's core principle of not empowering government to force (or coerce) a citizen to do something against his or her will. Direct Taxes do exactly that. If someone doesn't pay Income (Direct) Tax, then one gets fined, or put in prison, or BOTH.

"When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

You've completely ignored the difference between Direct Taxes, and Indirect Taxes. Without being able to distinguish the difference between the two, you cannot possibly understand why influential people in "libertarian circles" regard some taxes as acceptable, and other taxes as NOT ACCEPTABLE.

“ When I say cut taxes, I don’t mean fiddle with the code. I mean abolish the income tax and the IRS, and replace them with nothing. - Ron Paul

ALL libertarians (including influential ones) oppose ANY forms of Direct Taxation. There are no exceptions. If someone thinks that Direct Taxes are acceptable, then they cannot possibly be a libertarian.

Real libertarians oppose direct taxation.

@Ikari claims to be libertarian and I believe he supports heavily progressive taxation. I don't think he is a fan of private property ownership either.
 
LOL. Oh, ok, who knew.

Everyone.

Literally, everyone.

The difference between monopolies in the 1870's and today, is the many of the people of that time still had a sense of civic duty, even the wealthiest men, that or the best way to display their vanity was to build schools and libraries and name them after themselves.

So the "Robber Barons were paragons of virtue."

Got it.

Today, men like Musk are unlawfully striping funding away from the world poorest, including 10's of thousands of children and doing it with no shame and a total sense of glee.

Oh, Musk did that, huh?

Now even if you think that children dying in a far off land isn't your problem and you think that the government's money could better be spent elsewhere, I'd hope that you'd have the decency not to pull the rug out from under those people and then take joy in it. If that's not pure evil, nothing is.

I think lying in this land is sleazy..

"democrats can't embezzle from USAID - BILLIONS of CHILDREN are going to die."

You're hyperbole is absurd.

You suppose that not only has American been supporting and promoting overpopulation in the third world, but that we have an obligation to do so.

Now find me a modern monopoly that you think benefits the public.

Tesla.

Not a true monopoly, but it has vastly benefitted the Public by creating the first VIABLE electric vehicles in history.

Again, demonstrably false for healthcare.

There's no disputing that Europe, So. Korea and Japan have better public transport

What constitutes better?

Both Japan and South Korea have transit systems that are horribly overcrowded, people packed in like sardines, with literally no flexibility on scheduling. You run your life to meet the schedule of the trains.

That doesn't really seem "better.'

There is a certain appeal to going where I want, when I want. Even if that offends the more authoritarian segments of society.

And as far as education, the only place the US competes on this list is some colleges.

Take out minorities and immigrants and the USA in fact excels in education.

But diversity is our strength - according to the progressive left...

We may soon as corporations work to consolidate control of the food supply. Fortunately, competition and a very large country to grow things in makes it a little harder to dominate.

Typically it's governments who seize control of food supplies to force obedience by starving segments of society - such as the way the USSR, China, and the Khmer Rouge all did. Oh, and as North Korea does now.

I know of no instance a corporation in all of history that has controlled the food supply, much less used it to starve populations.

Can you document it? Or is this just pure demagoguery?

Though, as an example of what I say, we've recently learned that the nation's largest egg producer is earning record profits 3 times higher than recent years, why?

Because Joe Biden killed 300 million chickens as a eff you to America for electing Donald Trump.

Only government has that level of power - no corporation could ever do it.

Because of the perception of shortages allowed the industry to gouge people. Turns out that Bird Flu cost the industry about 4% of it's flock.

False - 300 million birds slaughtered - about 65% of the egg layers.

The outgoing administration sabotaged the food supply as a political dirty trick.

Yes, it's an indictment of Obama's Biden Junta, but it's also and indictment of government power in general.

At every turn we learn about greedy capitalists gouging people for higher and higher profits. Libertarian utopia would be a nightmare.

Again, it is clearly government and the authoritarian socialists who are a danger to the average person. As your egg story proves.
 
You are definitely NOT a libertarian. There is not ONE libertarian on the entire planet who believes that government should have the power and authority to take (by force) the earnings of a citizen. NOT ONE.

I agree that Chomskyites are not libertarians - but that is EXACTLY what they believe, and they fraudulently pass themselves off as libertarians.

You lean libertarian. Many people lean libertarian.

The very CORE principle of libertarianism is that government should NEVER force (or coerce) a person to do something against his or her will, and Direct Taxes (income taxes) forces the citizen to bend to their will. If we don't then government will hunt us down and inflict harm in some way.

If the Founding Fathers ever found out that Government was taking a portion of our earnings BY FORCE, they would be furious.

Most would, anyway.
 
Because Joe Biden killed 300 million chickens as a eff you to America for electing Donald Trump.

Only government has that level of power - no corporation could ever do it.

False - 300 million birds slaughtered - about 65% of the egg layers.

The outgoing administration sabotaged the food supply as a political dirty trick.

Yes, it's an indictment of Obama's Biden Junta, but it's also and indictment of government power in general.
This might be one of the most unhinged and detached from reality posts I’ve ever read on this forum.
 
Probably the same way some went "libertarian" to an authoritative rightist in league with the entrenched oligarchy.

I've not seen that.

I mean, you clearly support the globalist Oligarchy, but I've not seen that from traditional, non-Chomsky libertarians.
 
Real libertarians oppose direct taxation.
Correct.
claims to be libertarian and I believe he supports heavily progressive taxation. I don't think he is a fan of private property ownership either.
Ok.

But all libertarians oppose direct taxes. There are no exceptions.

For the record, @Ikari does not claim to be a libertarian. He leans libertarian. which is entirely possible. without actually being libertarian.
 
Turning inward, and trying to make things at home is not the solution.

View attachment 67575048

This bolt costs .41 cents to make this 1/2in bolt in the US in quantities of 10k, it costs .07 cents/bolt to make in China. It costs $4.79 at Home Depot.
Who's telling you this lie? The image you show is of a grade 8 bolt. Are you comparing that to the costs of lesser grade bolts?

Love to see your source information. Is it some lying blogger?
 
Correct.

Ok.

But all libertarians oppose direct taxes. There are no exceptions.

For the record, @Ikari does not claim to be a libertarian. He leans libertarian. which is entirely possible. without actually being libertarian.

"Libertarian - left" is an oxymoron. Leftism is the desire for more government, libertarianism the desire for less. I guess everyone leans in a way. The ideals in "Man, Economy, and State" stuck with me and I embrace them. But I don't always agree with the LPUSA - especially not the modern version that has so little in common with Rothbard or Browne.
 
"Libertarian - left" is an oxymoron. Leftism is the desire for more government, libertarianism the desire for less. I guess everyone leans in a way. The ideals in "Man, Economy, and State" stuck with me and I embrace them. But I don't always agree with the LPUSA - especially not the modern version that has so little in common with Rothbard or Browne.
Left and right in my mind have varying ideals and yes. A libertarian can lean left or right. I consider one major difference in general to be:

Right leaning to be more cautious of change wanting thoughtful debate on the prose and cons and how the future is affected.

Left leaning wants an idea now. Without in depth thoughtful discussion. This is why I have used a phrase refering to lesttists: "I want it now mommy."

Family values are generalky different also, people orefering the nuclear family are normally right leaning and people agreeing with LGBTQ+ are normally left leaning, though you will find a significant number of exceptions there.

There are plenty of variables, and claiming a libertarian must be right leaning I find preposterous. As preposterous as idiots trying to tell us we libertarians are not libertarians because we do not meet their perception of the label.
 
"Libertarian - left" is an oxymoron. Leftism is the desire for more government, libertarianism the desire for less.
Agreed. Communism/Marxism is the farthest political ideology from libertarianism, and as the left marches towards Marxism/Socialism, the political divide widens. What is alarming to me is that republicans USED to champion smaller government and lower taxes (back in the 1990s), but are now Big Government, High Taxes, Redistribution of Wealth - just like the left. The difference is how they redistribute the wealth - the left likes to redistribute wealth to entitled individuals, while the right wants wealth redistributed to corporations, banks, and corn farmers (as subsidies).
I guess everyone leans in a way. The ideals in "Man, Economy, and State" stuck with me and I embrace them. But I don't always agree with the LPUSA - especially not the modern version that has so little in common with Rothbard or Browne.
During the 2016 Libertarian Party Presidential debate with Austin Petersen and John McAfee I was shocked when Gary Johnson argued that the State should have the power to force the baker to bake the Nazi cake.

Petersen and McAfee said that government should NOT ever have this power. Johnson was the only one who got it completely wrong, and ironically won the LP nomination that year.
 
So the "Robber Barons were paragons of virtue."
Strawman
Oh, Musk did that, huh?
Not by himself, He was the tip of the spear.
You suppose that not only has American been supporting and promoting overpopulation in the third world, but that we have an obligation to do so.
If I throw a life vest to a person who's drowning (provide lifesaving food and medicine) to prevent you from drowning (starving) and it keeps them from drowning - though I had no obligation to do so, (prevents people from dying of starvation and disease), if I give the life vest to you while the person is still using it (the government changes administrations) and without warning you take it from the person who is using it (medicine, food) and the person using it dies as a result, then you (the US government and the administration in charge) are guilty of murder, despite the fact that there was no obligation it throw the life vest in the first place (provide foreign relief aid).

More evidence of the abject moral bankruptcy of Libertarian philosophy you support. 1, 2, 3, 4
"democrats can't embezzle from USAID - BILLIONS of CHILDREN are going to die."

You're hyperbole is absurd.

A strawman (I'm not aware of anyone who claims billions of children will die), unironically (ironically for the rest of us) combined with hyperbole and sprinkle it with hypocrisy. I on the other hand just provided 4 sources and there are dozens more, that show the number of deaths will be in the millions. Some of the sources estimate 300k deaths already. And when you hand wave away my sources, make sure you leave a list of reputable sources you would accept.
Tesla.

Not a true monopoly
SMH... Make a statment about monopolies, and your response is about a company that isn't a monopoly, ironically ignoring the fact that the company you're praising will fall into bankruptcy within 3 years unless Musk is removed and the company rebuilds it's image and reputation.
What constitutes better?

Both Japan and South Korea have transit systems that are horribly overcrowded
Sounds like people see so much value in it, they can't get enough, but to answer your question....
  1. Punctuality and Reliability: Both systems have a reputation for being on time
  2. Coverage and Integration: Extensive networks connecting diverse areas; seamless transfers with unified ticketing.
  3. Frequency: High frequency of trains and buses, especially during peak hours.
  4. Cleanliness and Maintenance: Impeccably clean, well-maintained, modern stations and vehicles.
  5. Technology and User Experience: Advanced real-time tracking, intuitive multi-lingual signage, platform screen doors, integrated apps for optimal transfers.
  6. Safety and Security: Very low crime rates; strong perception of safety.
  7. Affordability: Cost-effective, especially when considering the reduced need for personal vehicles.
  8. Transit-Oriented Development (TOD): Urban planning centered around transit hubs, integrating commercial, residential, and recreational spaces.
Oh, but wait, they are really crowded during rush-hour in Tokyo (one of the worlds largest cities) and other large metropolitan areas.
Take out minorities and immigrants and the USA in fact excels in education.

But diversity is our strength - according to the progressive left...
Confusing seriocomic factors with race and status, how xenophobic and racist of you.

I'll leave you with this:

Highly skilled immigrants are more likely to hold advanced degrees (professional or doctoral) compared to their U.S.-born counterparts. Excluding them would actually lower the overall educational attainment metrics of the U.S
 
.

Typically it's governments who seize control of food supplies to force obedience by starving segments of society
Making a sport out of straw manning my position aren't you?

No one said "seize" control, I said consolidate, which reduces competition at best and can result in oligopolies at worst, but the result is the same, higher prices and higher profits.

Evidence?
  • Meatpacking: Four companies slaughter 80-85% of beef, 70% of pork.
  • Seeds/Chemicals: Four firms dominate 60% of global seed market and 70% of global pesticide market.
  • Grocery Retail: The top five food retail companies (Walmart, Kroger, Costco, Ahold Delhaize, Amazon) account for about half of the market.
  • Nestlé, Unilever, Coca-Cola, Mondelez International, Kraft Heinz, Danone, and Kellanova (formerly Kellogg's) - These 8 companies control 40-80% of the food market depending on how you define "food company" (e.g., including fast food chains or just manufacturers) and the specific metric (revenue vs. market capitalization), the core idea remains: a relatively small number of multinational corporations have enormous influence and market share across many food product categories.
Because Joe Biden killed 300 million chickens as a eff you to America for electing Donald Trump.
False - 300 million birds slaughtered - about 65% of the egg layers.
Watch me (continue to) expose the fact that you just make stuff up.

Next time maybe Google; "How many egg laying chickens are there in the US" before you make up numbers like that.

"U.S. table egg production totaled 93.1 billion in 2024, down one percent from 2023. The U.S. had 311 million commercial laying hens at the end of 2024, down 3% from 2023."

LOL.

So there are only 11 million of 300 million egg laying chickens left? Can't make this stuff up, oh wait, you just did.
Again, it is clearly government and the authoritarian socialists who are a danger to the average person. As your egg story proves.
Untitled Egg Producers disagrees with you.
 
Who's telling you this lie? The image you show is of a grade 8 bolt. Are you comparing that to the costs of lesser grade bolts?
The picture was just an image, I didn't know I'd have any bolt experts out there, so let me be more exact.....

If you want to buy a 1/4x20x1" 18-8 stainless steel bolt, (going back to double check), oops, I was looking at a different quote. It's 35 cents not 41.

If you want to call or fill out the quote, here's where the quote came from.

Here is a quote from an overseas supplier for the same bolt. And you can see 9 cents a piece is for 100.

1750189825586.webp

Point still stands....
 
The picture was just an image, I didn't know I'd have any bolt experts out there, so let me be more exact.....

If you want to buy a 1/4x20x1" 18-8 stainless steel bolt, (going back to double check), oops, I was looking at a different quote. It's 35 cents not 41.

If you want to call or fill out the quote, here's where the quote came from.

Here is a quote from an overseas supplier for the same bolt. And you can see 9 cents a piece is for 100.

View attachment 67575242

Point still stands....
So where is your pricing information for the USA made grade 2 bolt?
 
First, I realize that using the term Libertarian casts a very wide net, so I expect to get a range of responses.

So here is my question.

It is my understanding that most Libertarians want private ownership, generally speaking, in as much as possible.

The claim is that anything that can and should be created should be funded privately and that this will result in improvements over the public/ private system we have now.

Now, I have an objection to this idea on practical grounds and I'm curious if there is someone who'd be willing to point out why my concerns are unfounded.

My concern is that businesses are, by their nature, risk averse. They tend to be short-sighted as a lot of emphasis is placed on short term profitability and return on investment (ROI). In the world we have now businesses are allowed to write down losses and many businesses will show losses for years before showing profitability, but it's taxpayers that pay for some if not all of the losses, This increases return on investment and reduces the barriers to entry for new businesses increasing the ability for startups to be more competitive.

It is my assumption, that people that adhere closely to "pure" Libertarianism would not agree to a government that provides tax incentives or subsidies or other advantages to any business, thus, this would cause at least two major problems in my mind.

1. The barrier to entry would be even greater than it is now delaying profitability and requiring investors to take much greater risks (with great risk must come the promise of great potential returns).

2. Increased risk comes at an increased cost.

3. Even if the private sector could have invented the internet, built the infrastructure to utilize it, settled on thousands if not 10's of thousands of interoperability standards, is there any reason to think, that without government providing tax incentives (at both the federal and state level), grants for R&D, organizations like ISO, IEC, IEEE, IETF, W3C, OASIS, Ecma International, HL7 International, IHE, SISO, DMTF, The Open Group just to name a few (and yes some are international, but almost certainly established by US government influence if not money).


I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever, that private companies would be willing to take the risk to lead industry in novel directions, at least in a way that was competitive globally. Thus, I think US private industry in a Libertarian world would largely relegated to waiting until technologies were created outside the US and then iterate on them. I think the profit motive, when left without a social political mandate competes to do what's in a companies best interest, even if that interest creates a more complex and convoluted system.

I don't see the US under a purely private system can look forward 5-10 years when profits are reported quarterly.

My other issue with private companies running everything and the idea that they will do the right thing otherwise people won't purchase their products. Let's look at a real world example.

Dupont makes Teflon. Some of you may know that Teflon contamination (specifically C8 a processing aid used in the manufacturing of Teflon for many years. It helped in the polymerization process of PTFE, Teflon itself is inert at normal temperatures.) is so widespread that there isn't a single living thing that's not contaminated with it. Now Dupont has made $10 billion, extremely conservatively on it's sales of Teflon. A more realistic number could be as high as $30 billion.

They have been sued for approximately $6 billion. POFA, after 60 years was finally phased out in steps after 2003. Now we have C6. No long term publicly available testing, its assumed it's better than C8, but some preliminary testing shows it has similar effects as C8. But why should Dupon care? If future fines are some fraction of their profits.

Why should anyone believe that in a purely private system that Libertarians say that want that the Dupont case should expect to get better and not worse?

The U.S. has had an innovative, vibrant entrepreneurial class since at least the 19th Century. Government is often more of a hindrance and an obstacle than a help when it comes to matching risk with potential reward. Rather than aid in the efficient deployment and utilization of capital, it often leads to capital misallocation and market inefficiency. Look, for example, at the billions of dollars in tax write-offs on EV production facilities after expected demand didn’t materialize despite government mandates and edicts, such Biden’s stricter CAFE standards and a requirement that two-thirds of new vehicles sold in the U.S. by 2032 be EVs.
 
The picture was just an image, I didn't know I'd have any bolt experts out there, so let me be more exact.....

If you want to buy a 1/4x20x1" 18-8 stainless steel bolt, (going back to double check), oops, I was looking at a different quote. It's 35 cents not 41.

If you want to call or fill out the quote, here's where the quote came from.

Here is a quote from an overseas supplier for the same bolt. And you can see 9 cents a piece is for 100.

View attachment 67575242

Point still stands....
Chinese bullshit huh...

Model number blotted out.

You originally put a picture of a grade 8 bolt. Now you refer to a grade 2.

Sorry. You have zero credibility.

For the record, 8 years of my life, I was in engineering. First four rapid research and development for semiconductor process equipment. We used stainless, titanium, hastalloy, etc.

You will not pull my leg with you amateur antics.

KD fasteners hides their quotes from the general public. i have no idea you are being factual.
 
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I've read a lot of post on this board. I've yet to find a libertarian.

A “pure libertarian”, I wouldn’t think so.



I found some fake ones though. They'll try to call themselves libertarians because of something. It's a way for them to skirt responsibility for what they actually vote for.

Real Libertarian politics doesn’t authorize hate, or bigotry, or any other manner of causing harm to others.

You can call yourself anything and wrongfully use it to try and justify something bad. Even “progressive” or “liberal”.
 
So where is your pricing information for the USA made grade 2 bolt?
All I have is a screenshot, but it doesn't show the name of the company, which is why I included a link to the vendor so you don't have to take my word for it.

They quoted .35 cents a piece made in the USA. They said the materials for the bolt cost more than the ~10 cent quote I found the finished bolt over seas.

Can you find that same bolt confirmed made in the US for less than 35 cents/10k? You seemed pretty sure before calling me a liar.

If you find it and include a link so I can call/ email for a quote.
 
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Real Libertarian politics doesn’t authorize hate, or bigotry, or any other manner of causing harm to others.
Not sure where you fall on this, so I'll just ask.

Is exploitation harm?

You might say it depends, after all, $12 popcorn in a movie theater is exploitation, but I think we can agree that's really not the kind of exploitation that I'm talking about.

So my question is, can you think of any form of exploitation that a person could subject another person to, that the exploiter did nothing to cause the situation, that could be considered harm?
 
All I have is a screenshot, but it doesn't show the name of the company, which is why I included a link to the vendor so you don't have to take my word for it.

They quoted .35 cents a piece made in the USA. They said the materials for the bolt cost more than the ~10 cent quote I found the finished bolt over seas.

Can you find that same bolt confirmed made in the US for less than 35 cents/10k? You seemed pretty sure before calling me a liar.

If you find it and include a link so I can call/ email for a quote.
I was unable to find a grade 2 stainless steel made in the USA. Higher grades yes. Grade 2 no.
 
Not sure where you fall on this, so I'll just ask.

Is exploitation harm?

You might say it depends, after all, $12 popcorn in a movie theater is exploitation, but I think we can agree that's really not the kind of exploitation that I'm talking about.

So my question is, can you think of any form of exploitation that a person could subject another person to, that the exploiter did nothing to cause the situation, that could be considered harm?

No genuine, ethical, political theory condones unethically acts. If it did it would t be an ethical political theory. Unethical behavior can take place under any label. Wouldn’t mean it was accurate. Just a bastardized, usurped, usage.
 
First, I realize that using the term Libertarian casts a very wide net, so I expect to get a range of responses.

So here is my question.

It is my understanding that most Libertarians want private ownership, generally speaking, in as much as possible.

The claim is that anything that can and should be created should be funded privately and that this will result in improvements over the public/ private system we have now.

Now, I have an objection to this idea on practical grounds and I'm curious if there is someone who'd be willing to point out why my concerns are unfounded.

My concern is that businesses are, by their nature, risk averse. They tend to be short-sighted as a lot of emphasis is placed on short term profitability and return on investment (ROI). In the world we have now businesses are allowed to write down losses and many businesses will show losses for years before showing profitability, but it's taxpayers that pay for some if not all of the losses, This increases return on investment and reduces the barriers to entry for new businesses increasing the ability for startups to be more competitive.

It is my assumption, that people that adhere closely to "pure" Libertarianism would not agree to a government that provides tax incentives or subsidies or other advantages to any business, thus, this would cause at least two major problems in my mind.

1. The barrier to entry would be even greater than it is now delaying profitability and requiring investors to take much greater risks (with great risk must come the promise of great potential returns).

2. Increased risk comes at an increased cost.

3. Even if the private sector could have invented the internet, built the infrastructure to utilize it, settled on thousands if not 10's of thousands of interoperability standards, is there any reason to think, that without government providing tax incentives (at both the federal and state level), grants for R&D, organizations like ISO, IEC, IEEE, IETF, W3C, OASIS, Ecma International, HL7 International, IHE, SISO, DMTF, The Open Group just to name a few (and yes some are international, but almost certainly established by US government influence if not money).


I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever, that private companies would be willing to take the risk to lead industry in novel directions, at least in a way that was competitive globally. Thus, I think US private industry in a Libertarian world would largely relegated to waiting until technologies were created outside the US and then iterate on them. I think the profit motive, when left without a social political mandate competes to do what's in a companies best interest, even if that interest creates a more complex and convoluted system.

I don't see the US under a purely private system can look forward 5-10 years when profits are reported quarterly.

My other issue with private companies running everything and the idea that they will do the right thing otherwise people won't purchase their products. Let's look at a real world example.

Dupont makes Teflon. Some of you may know that Teflon contamination (specifically C8 a processing aid used in the manufacturing of Teflon for many years. It helped in the polymerization process of PTFE, Teflon itself is inert at normal temperatures.) is so widespread that there isn't a single living thing that's not contaminated with it. Now Dupont has made $10 billion, extremely conservatively on it's sales of Teflon. A more realistic number could be as high as $30 billion.

They have been sued for approximately $6 billion. POFA, after 60 years was finally phased out in steps after 2003. Now we have C6. No long term publicly available testing, its assumed it's better than C8, but some preliminary testing shows it has similar effects as C8. But why should Dupon care? If future fines are some fraction of their profits.

Why should anyone believe that in a purely private system that Libertarians say that want that the Dupont case should expect to get better and not worse?

I'm not going to unpack all this because there's a lot of bullshit. I'm just going to say there are degrees of libertarianism, and this is just an attempt at making generalizations and putting words in the mouths of libertarians and then arguing against them.

You have everything from the non aggression principle crowd to the anarcho-capitalists lunatics.
 
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