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A question for the Libertarians

Chinese bullshit huh...
Yes. And?

Model number blotted out.
That's the way it was provided to me, why would I care if you see the model number? lol

You originally put a picture of a grade 8 bolt.
I told you, I used a stock photo, I didn't hide that when you asked. Good on you for knowing the difference. It wasn't a deception, lazy maybe, but not deception.

Then I pointed out specifically that If you want an 18 8 (type 304) bolt in the US in the size I specified, a bolt generally selected for its mix of corrosion resistance and decent tensile strength - exceeding a grade 2 and and up grade 5 depending- You'll pay 3 to 4 times more if the fasteners are made in the US.
Sorry. You have zero credibility.
With the exception of the photo that I admitted was a stock photo, everything I've said is true.
You will not pull my leg with you amateur antics.
LOL....
KD fasteners hides their quotes from the general public. i have no idea you are being factual.
Sure, as do most that make fasteners in the US. They cannot compete on price.

As far as my being factual, you claim to have spent 8 years in what sounds to be advanced engineering. Can you can fill out this form and ask how much 100 type 304 bolts in the size I specified using this form?

I already did it and you don't believe me. So prove yourself wrong. I'll wait.

1750202243101.webp
 
I'm just going to say there are degrees of libertarianism

You should take that up with SkyChief, apparently there are certain qualities that define a Libertarian
But all libertarians oppose direct taxes. There are no exceptions.

Or this doozy...
You want to give the state that power to punish immoral people as if they were criminals.

Honestly, I don't care how Libertarians define themselves, there are a handful in this thread that clearly think that NAP, a minimalist or non existent government and voluntary indirect taxation is all any True Libertarian stands for.

That said I realize there are people who don't fall into the Anarco-NAP wing and I'm having a conversation with anyone and everyone.
 
No genuine, ethical, political theory condones unethically acts. If it did it would t be an ethical political theory. Unethical behavior can take place under any label. Wouldn’t mean it was accurate. Just a bastardized, usurped, usage.
So then exploitation can cause harm.

We agree.
 
That said I realize there are people who don't fall into the Anarco-NAP wing and I'm having a conversation with anyone and everyone.

Not sure why you're dragging me into this mess. Most ancaps reject the nap.

And yes, you can act in an immoral way without violating anyone else's rights. Cheating on your wife is immoral - but it doesn't violate her rights.
 
And yes, you can act in an immoral way without violating anyone else's rights.
That's not an argument I was making.

I merely said that leveraging a legitimate market advantage is not the same as exploiting another persons situation in a way that would better be described as extortion.

So while charging $12 for popcorn at the movies is a form of mild and acceptable exploitation, conditioning assistance on some form of payment (in dollars or otherwise), that's only possible because of a dire condition that a person happened to find another person in and extract unusually high compensation for the amount of help provided, that's extortion, it's immoral and it is clearly a violation of another persons rights if your cost to help and the price you charge are wildly different. Blackmail is another thing that you can't say is illegal as long as the person doing the blackmail isn't responsible for the situation that created the opportunity.
 
So while charging $12 for popcorn at the movies is a form of mild and acceptable exploitation, conditioning assistance on some form of payment (in dollars or otherwise), that's only possible because of a dire condition that a person happened to find another person in and extract unusually high compensation for the amount of help provided, that's extortion, it's immoral and it is clearly a violation of another persons rights if your cost to help and the price you charge are wildly different.

Rights violations are not determined by profit margins. I agree it's immoral to exploit someone in need, but it's not a rights violation. Rights are negative. Your bad luck doesn't obligate other people to help you. They should help you, but they're not violating your rights if they don't.
 
So then exploitation can cause harm.

We agree.

Yes, put no ethical person is deliberately exploiting someone. That includes in politics. And it’s not a persons politics that makes them unethical.
 
They should help you, but they're not violating your rights if they don't.
Regardless, extortion and blackmail are and should continue to be crimes prosecutable by the government because of the tangible harm they cause.
 
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Yes, put no ethical person is deliberately exploiting someone. That includes in politics. And it’s not a persons politics that makes them unethical.
The issue, as you can see in my conversation above, is whether exploitation in its gravest forms, extortion and blackmail, are crimes that the government should have the ability to prosecute and punish. Not because it's immoral per-se (though they are, IMO, immoral), but because of the harm they cause.
 
Regardless, extortion and blackmail are and should continue to be crimes prosecutable by the government because of the tangible harm they cause.

What exactly do you think taxation is? Good luck suing the government over the “tangible harm” of being legally robbed.

Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one’s affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant. --Judge Learned Hand (1947)
 
The issue, as you can see in my conversation above, is whether exploitation in its gravest forms, extortion and blackmail, are crimes that the government should have the ability to prosecute and punish. Not because it's immoral per-se (though they are, IMO, immoral), but because of the harm they cause.

???

Extortion and fraud including theft by deception are already illegal. I’ve investigated and arrested any number of people for the violation of those laws.

I’m sure you’re aware of that.
 
Extortion and fraud including theft by deception are already illegal. I’ve investigated and arrested any number of people for the violation of those laws.
Apologies, let me explain.

At the fringes of Libertarianism is NAP, I'm sure you are aware of it? Some take NAP to mean that only coercion, should be illegal. Now, I admit when I began the argument I didn't understand the distinction some were making when discussing the difference between exploitation, or even extortion when compared to coercion, after all they are very similar on often used interchangeably with perhaps one being a more extreme version of the other. It seems that only coercion is persuasion by implicit force, there are as many as 3 people in this thread that I suspect believe that exploitation, even under the most extreme duress, should not be illegal, as long as the person doing the exploiting had nothing directly to do with the situation they find another person in (example below). They admit its immoral, but don't believe it the job of government to enforce morality, unless the immoral act employs the explicit use of force because the only time aggression is warranted, is when someone else aggresses against you.

I've given a simple example in this thread of coming upon a person in a deep hole unable to escape without help, desperately pleading to throw down a rope already at the top of the hole conveniently bound to a tree in an area one would be very fortunate to run across another person. There is at least 1 person, likely 3 in this thread that believe that it should be legal to exploit the situation however they can and if they do not like the terms, or the person in the hole has nothing to offer, they shouldn't be legally expected to help, no matter how minimal the effort required and no matter the fate they leave the person in the hole to.

The context begins with this exchange where I use a more explicit example, or if you want to go back further, there is this comment, that says that it should be ok to price gouge for an essential like water after a natural disaster. You can follow the conversation if you want hear the justification.

It's pretty gross what people say they stand for, as I doubt many live the courage of their own convictions.

And to be clear, I'm not painting every Libertarian with this brush, though I think that most forms of Libertarianism cannot compete, all other things being equal, with any society sounded on more egalitarian principles. And I say that as someone who, when taking the most well recognized political compass test (I can't remember what it's called), I end up almost smack dab in the middle, ever so slightly to the libertarian left. I believe that exploitation and it's harm are generally worse when there is a power dynamic between parties in a negotiation. In the real world, I suspect you'd likely agree that extortion (an extreme form of exploitation) is the result of a extreme imbalance in the power dynamic between individuals or groups and is every bit as harmful, if not more so because unlike force, it is much easier to disguise exploitation and extortion.

-Cheers
 
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What exactly do you think taxation is? Good luck suing the government over the “tangible harm” of being legally robbed.
The taxation is theft argument is one of the more retarded libertarian positions. We’ve been over this numerous times. You voluntarily pay taxes. Nobody steals anything from you. Nobody forces you to live and work in the US. You remain here of your own free will. Knowing full well that if you choose to live and work here, you will be paying taxes. Since you are still here, you have 100% agreed to paying taxes.
 
Apologies, let me explain.

At the fringes of Libertarianism is NAP, I'm sure you are aware of it? Some take NAP to mean that only coercion, should be illegal. Now, I admit when I began the argument I didn't understand the distinction some were making when discussing the difference between exploitation, or even extortion when compared to coercion, after all they are very similar on often used interchangeably with perhaps one being a more extreme version of the other. It seems that only coercion is persuasion by implicit force, there are as many as 3 people in this thread that I suspect believe that exploitation, even under the most extreme duress, should not be illegal, as long as the person doing the exploiting had nothing directly to do with the situation they find another person in (example below). They admit its immoral, but don't believe it the job of government to enforce morality, unless the immoral act employs the explicit use of force because the only time aggression is warranted, is when someone else aggresses against you.

I've given a simple example in this thread of coming upon a person in a deep hole unable to escape without help, desperately pleading to throw down a rope already at the top of the hole conveniently bound to a tree in an area one would be very fortunate to run across another person. There is at least 1 person, likely 3 in this thread that believe that it should be legal to exploit the situation however they can and if they do not like the terms, or the person in the hole has nothing to offer, they shouldn't be legally expected to help, no matter how minimal the effort required and no matter the fate they leave the person in the hole to.

The context begins with this exchange where I use a more explicit example, or if you want to go back further, there is this comment, that says that it should be ok to price gouge for an essential like water after a natural disaster. You can follow the conversation if you want hear the justification.

It's pretty gross what people say they stand for, as I doubt many live the courage of their own convictions.

And to be clear, I'm not painting every Libertarian with this brush, though I think that most forms of Libertarianism cannot compete, all other things being equal, with any society sounded on more egalitarian principles. And I say that as someone who, when taking the most well recognized political compass test (I can't remember what it's called), I end up almost smack dab in the middle, ever so slightly to the libertarian left. I believe that exploitation and it's harm are generally worse when there is a power dynamic between parties in a negotiation. In the real world, I suspect you'd likely agree that extortion (an extreme form of exploitation) is the result of a extreme imbalance in the power dynamic between individuals or groups and is every bit as harmful, if not more so because unlike force, it is much easier to disguise exploitation and extortion.

-Cheers

Nihilism.

You can add the the lack of acknowledgement of the objective ethic or even knowledge of truth but that doesn’t mean it’s gone away. It simply means, at its kindest interpretation, that the person doing do is practicing situational thinking in regards to ethics and/or truth.

Facts remain facts, regardless of the political party or its fringe describing its platform.

The use of force, coercion or fraud to remove free will or to cause harm to another is ethically and factually wrong.

So “Libertarian NAP” political thinking or any other line of political thought you prescribe as a precursor to a acronym that means it’s Ok to f##k people over using force, coercion or fraud is a factually inaccurate interpretation of the “pure” form of any government that could still call itself a democracy and horribly unethical to boot.
 
What exactly do you think taxation is?
One of two eternal truths.

Good luck suing the government over the “tangible harm” of being legally robbed.
Man fears time. Time fears the pyramids.

Examples of bitching about taxes can be found among 5,000 year old ostraca. As well as the tax receipts.

Good luck with the bitching. Maybe it'll take hold in another 5,000 years.
 
Idealogues of any sort lead us down the wrong path, and unless libertarianism is tempered by reason, empathy, and the desire for the greater good, it is just another masturbatory exercise.
Again if you insist on coming on this forum and making logical, rational, well written, precise responses I can only defer to you.
 
I'm not sure how this would fit into libertarian philosophy, but public/private partnerships have become popular and successful, as has a method of tax abatement called TIF, tax increment financing.

TIF addresses gaps in ROI and is used to attract development that otherwise wouldn't be attempted. The Meruelo Group requested and received this financing regarding the construction of a basketball/hockey arena and other amenities.


In summary, the Meruelo Group proved that it could earn a better ROI by putting its money into T-bills, which is the metric used, as opposed to the project. TIF bridges the gap by abating a percentage of tax liability as it occurs. The city risks nothing. Meruelo will receive $61.3m in abatements only if the project is built and succeeds.

This stadium being built will be used by the University of Nevada's basketball team, which will lease the facility from the Grand Sierra Resort. The traditional method of financing a stadium is to issue bonds. Here, the university is absolved of risk as is the city, but the school gets a state-of-the-art stadium, and the city gets an economic boost and increased tax receipts after 20 years.

I don't know where this would fit on the libertarian scale, but it is very creative financing. All the risk lies with the developer. The city has simply enticed development it and the university want (community support is virtually unanimous), while risking not one dime of taxpayer money.
 
I'm not sure how this would fit into libertarian philosophy, but public/private partnerships have become popular and successful, as has a method of tax abatement called TIF, tax increment financing
Socialists realized that SOCIALISM IS AN ECONOMIC DISASTER - reason former socialists like Benito Mussolini created FASCISM - under FASCISM private ownership of property is retained as long as the state is in control and wherein the states defines their mission

Benito Mussolini: - What is Fascism, 1932

 
Socialists realized that SOCIALISM IS AN ECONOMIC DISASTER - reason former socialists like Benito Mussolini created FASCISM - under FASCISM private ownership of property is retained as long as the state is in control and wherein the states defines their mission

Benito Mussolini: - What is Fascism, 1932


Please show any country in history where libatarianism has been a success?
Just 1 will be fine.
 
That's a REALLY bad assumption. All libertarians oppose Direct Taxes, and therefore they would oppose any "Tax Incentives" on Direct taxes.

"Government should never be able to do anything you can't do. If you can't steal from your neighbor, you can't send the government to steal for you." - Ron Paul

Trade and the Free Market works better for everyone when government stays out of it.
Libertarians couldn't set a local tax rate using both hands. Libertarians have little or no experience in government because they can't get elected locally, at the state or federal level. Libertarians don't know government or governance. They don't know the responsibility of government and governance.

And it's rare voters anywhere want to seriously risk everything to Libertarian control and remaking given the lunatic ideas Libertarians have and that they themselves can't resolve among themselves. Which is to say Libertarians have no unified program to present to voters -- it would be antilibertarian to make one up and have one.

Libertarianism is absurd.
 
Libertarians couldn't set a local tax rate using both hands.
Nonsense. Libertarians would unanimously set the Tax Rate at 0.0%.
Libertarians have little or no experience in government because they can't get elected locally, at the state or federal level. Libertarians don't know government or governance. They don't know the responsibility of government and governance.
This is patently false. There are currently libertarians in ALL levels of government; local, state and federal.
And it's rare voters anywhere want to seriously risk everything to Libertarian control and remaking given the lunatic ideas Libertarians have and that they themselves can't resolve among themselves. Which is to say Libertarians have no unified program to present to voters -- it would be antilibertarian to make one up and have one.
There IS a unified program - it's called the Non-Aggression Principle. All libertarian principles hinge on this unifying axiom. The NAP establishes that government cannot force (or coerce) citizens to do something against their will. I surrender a portion of my earnings to the government (in the form of income taxes) because the government promised to harm me in some way - in the form of monetary penalties, or even JAIL if I don't.

"Government should never be able to do anything you can't do. If you can't steal from your neighbor, you can't send the government to steal for you." - Ron Paul

Libertarianism is absurd.
False.

Libertarians score higher on intelligence tests than either liberals or conservatives. Libertarians are much smarter and better informed than non-libertarians.
source:https://notesonliberty.com/2014/05/...-intelligent-than-conservatives-and-liberals/

Your entire argument is based mostly on ignorance, misinformation, bigotry, and sophistry.
 
Nonsense. Libertarians would unanimously set the Tax Rate at 0.0%.

This is patently false. There are currently libertarians in ALL levels of government; local, state and federal.

There IS a unified program - it's called the Non-Aggression Principle. All libertarian principles hinge on this unifying axiom. The NAP establishes that government cannot force (or coerce) citizens to do something against their will. I surrender a portion of my earnings to the government (in the form of income taxes) because the government promised to harm me in some way - in the form of monetary penalties, or even JAIL if I don't.

"Government should never be able to do anything you can't do. If you can't steal from your neighbor, you can't send the government to steal for you." - Ron Paul


False.

Libertarians score higher on intelligence tests than either liberals or conservatives. Libertarians are much smarter and better informed than non-libertarians.
source:https://notesonliberty.com/2014/05/...-intelligent-than-conservatives-and-liberals/

I can't send a carrier to defend the UK so I assume that shouldn't be allowed?
 
I can't send a carrier to defend the UK so I assume that shouldn't be allowed?
That question is absurd. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Non-Aggression Principle.

It's impossible to give a logical answer to an illogical question.
 
That question is absurd. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Non-Aggression Principle.

It's impossible to give a logical answer to an illogical question.

You're statement said "The government shouldn't be allowed to do anything I can't.".

I obviously don't own an aircraft carrier and I have a feeling nobody else on here does either.
 
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