A question about race..

[polgara]

The point is that there is no point in the continued persecution of GZ. It's perilously close to double jeopardy to try to find some other reason for a retrial of the same, basic facts...

Greetings, AP. :2wave:

I wonder what the Hispanic population of this country is thinking? They know that Zimmerman was found Not Guilty by a jury, yet people like Sharpton and Jackson and others are holding rallies against him with the administration's approval? Not a good move, IMO, if the Libs expect to get Hispanic votes in the future, so let them continue the race-baiting, since apparently only blacks are always right, even when the facts show otherwise. Just saying...:shock:

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Greetings, AP. :2wave:

I wonder what the Hispanic population of this country is thinking? They know that Zimmerman was found Not Guilty by a jury, yet people like Sharpton and Jackson and others are holding rallies against him with the administration's approval? Not a good move, IMO, if the Libs expect to get Hispanic votes in the future, so let them continue the race-baiting, since apparently only blacks are always right, even when the facts show otherwise. Just saying...:shock:

Good afternoon pg...

I would dare say the the average person believes GZ is white, especially now that we have our White/Hispanic terminology being introduced. You need to ask bj his thoughts on this subject...

 

[Gathomas88]

escape from what ?

why did he have to escape ?

what did he do ?

He was behaving strangely, at night, while wearing clothing that could be used to conceal one's identity, in a residential neighborhood that had recently experienced a crime spike.

He was also arguably high, which probably didn't do much to help the factors mentioned above.

Zimmerman called the police and decided to shadow Trayvon in his car to make sure he wasn't up to something, and apparently Trayvon bolted (sort of suspicious in and of itself) soon after.

According to the testimony of his friends, Trayvon made it back to (or, at the very least, near) his place of residence out of sight of Zimmerman, and then deliberately turned around in order to find Zimmerman again and confront him.

When the police showed up, Zimmerman was beaten to a pulp.

I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't take a criminal expert to put two and two together here.

Good afternoon pg...

I would dare say the the average person believes GZ is white, especially now that we have our White/Hispanic terminology being introduced. You need to ask bj his thoughts on this subject...

God almighty!

Don't even get me started on that revisionist nonsense. :roll:

Could the talking heads possibly be any more desperate to try and forcibly brand this as being a "white vs. black" issue if they tried?

 

[Hard Truth]

Then get him (Sharpton) off his soap box and tell him he is not speaking for all blacks. Because that is what he is trying to do.

I'm not the one who put him there, but if I see him I'll tell him to get off his soapbox.

 

[Medusa]

He was behaving strangely, at night, while wearing clothing that could be used to conceal one's identity, in a residential neighborhood that had recently experienced a crime spike.

He was also arguably high, which probably didn't do much to help the factors mentioned above.

Zimmerman called the police and decided to shadow Trayvon in his car to make sure he wasn't up to something, and apparently Trayvon bolted (sort of suspicious in and of itself) soon after.

According to the testimony of his friends, Trayvon made it back to his place of residence away from Zimmerman, and then deliberately turned around in order to confront him.

When the police showed up, Zimmerman was beaten to a pulp.

I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't take a criminal expert to put two and two together here.

no he was walking to home

stop pretending to know what happened that day


and stop changing teh whole story

he called teh police and kept following

it doesnt change the fact he first provoked martin to feel threatened and attack him

l stil dont know why a person has to escape while going to home

 

[windowdressing]

Yes at first they had their ideas about the case, but after preponderance of the evidence there was no way to convict.

I guess that's your way of saying "thank you" ... you're most welcomed ... this reminded me of the one time I served on a jury ... most of us walked into jury deliberations thinking the guy probably did what he was accused of, but after discussing it, we had enough reasonable doubt, given the judge's instructions, to find him not gulty (although most of us still had the feeling he had done something) ... despite some of its flaws, it's not a bad system all and all ... better to err on the side of letting a guilty man walk than convicting an innocent one ... (I'm guessing that GZ will be arrested again sometime down the road ... he's got issues) ... take care, gotta go ...

 

[Medusa]

He was behaving strangely, at night, while wearing clothing that could be used to conceal one's identity, in a residential neighborhood that had recently experienced a crime spike.

He was also arguably high, which probably didn't do much to help the factors mentioned above.

Zimmerman called the police and decided to shadow Trayvon in his car to make sure he wasn't up to something, and apparently Trayvon bolted (sort of suspicious in and of itself) soon after.

According to the testimony of his friends, Trayvon made it back to his place of residence away from Zimmerman, and then deliberately turned around in order to confront him.

When the police showed up, Zimmerman was beaten to a pulp.

I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't take a criminal expert to put two and two together here.

no he was walking to home

stop pretending to know what happened that day


and stop changing teh whole story

he called teh police and kept following

the fact taht he stooped following it doesnt change the fact he first provoked martin

l stil dont know why a person has to escape while going to home

 

[opendebate]

All of my friends at work are black and it seems almost impossible to have any kind or rational discussion about this case. What is it about this case that has such an emotional hold on some people they can't look at it objectively? Whenever I see or hear cases where a white person dies I don't feel any attachment to them, it doesn't affect me any more or less than the death of Trayvon. I guess I'm just curious as to why is there such a bond between black people that doesn't seem to be there among white people. What are your opinions on this?

Well, I would suggest asking them.

We are all affected not only by our personal history but by our collective history. As a woman, womens history affects my outlook and attitudes toward the world. Being a Californian or an American etc... all effect who I am today. So look at the history of blacks in this country. We drug them from their home country, beat them, destroyed their families, killed them because they have black skin, made them sit in separate seats on the bus or in public, use separate bathrooms, more killing.... We can all agree that those things happened. As a group they have had to fight for every scrap of equality they have managed to gain today. That can not help but effect their sensitivity to what happened in this case because this case is so peppered with the suggestion of prejudice and bias. Their emotional response, makes perfect sense, within the context of black history in this country. Couple that with current history and most likely, personal experience of discrimination or prejudice and again, it makes sense. As for the bond, it is a shared history unique to this community of people. (not to say these things have not happened to other ethnic groups in other places in the world or at other times in history.) I think that creates a bond, it certainly creates a level of understanding that I assume would be difficult to find outside that group.

 

[Medusa]

He was behaving strangely, at night, while wearing clothing that could be used to conceal one's identity, in a residential neighborhood that had recently experienced a crime spike.

He was also arguably high, which probably didn't do much to help the factors mentioned above.

Zimmerman called the police and decided to shadow Trayvon in his car to make sure he wasn't up to something, and apparently Trayvon bolted (sort of suspicious in and of itself) soon after.

According to the testimony of his friends, Trayvon made it back to his place of residence away from Zimmerman, and then deliberately turned around in order to confront him.

When the police showed up, Zimmerman was beaten to a pulp.

I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't take a criminal expert to put two and two together here.

no he was walking to home

stop pretending to know what happened that day


and stop changing teh whole story

he called teh police and kept following

the fact taht he stooped following doesnt change the fact he first provoked martin

l stil dont know why a person has to escape while going to home

who decided he was behaving strangely?

 

[AlabamaPaul]

no he was walking to home

stop pretending to know what happened that day


and stop changing teh whole story

he called teh police and kept following

the fact taht he stooped following doesnt change the fact he first provoked martin

l stil dont know why a person has to escape while going to home

who decided he was behaving strangely?

If he had intended to kill TM, why would he have called the police?

 

[Gathomas88]

no he was walking to home

stop pretending to know what happened that day


and stop changing teh whole story

Medusa, this is the story that came out during the trial, and was accepted by the jury. It is based off of factual evidence; including eye witness testimony, extensive toxicology and forensic reports, and phone calls made by both Zimmerman and Martin on the night of the shooting.

If you are ignorant as to the facts surrounding the case, you really shouldn't be debating it in the first place.

it doesnt change the fact he first provoked martin to feel threatened and attack him

Complete and total nonsense. Under most forms of civil law, nothing short of physical violence or the direct threat of physical violence can be viewed as being justifiable provocation to attack another person.

Considering the fact that Martin deliberately doubled back in order to confront Martin after making it home, neither consideration can be said to apply here. Simply put, Trayvon Martin was looking for trouble, and he found it.

l stil dont know why a person has to escape while going to home

There was no reason he had to "escape." He chose to run.

 

[opendebate]

He was behaving strangely, at night, while wearing clothing that could be used to conceal one's identity, in a residential neighborhood that had recently experienced a crime spike.

He was also arguably high, which probably didn't do much to help the factors mentioned above.

Zimmerman called the police and decided to shadow Trayvon in his car to make sure he wasn't up to something, and apparently Trayvon bolted (sort of suspicious in and of itself) soon after.

According to the testimony of his friends, Trayvon made it back to (or, at the very least, near) his place of residence out of sight of Zimmerman, and then deliberately turned around in order to find Zimmerman again and confront him.

When the police showed up, Zimmerman was beaten to a pulp.

I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't take a criminal expert to put two and two together here.



God almighty!

Don't even get me started on that revisionist nonsense. :roll:

Could the talking heads possibly be any more desperate to try and forcibly brand this as being a "white vs. black" issue if they tried?

Can you recognize the bias and prejudice in the language you use here and what you allow yourself to deduce based on almost no fact not to mention what you credit as "fact".

 

[opendebate]

Medusa, this is the story that came out during the trial, and was accepted by the jury. It is based off of factual evidence; including eye witness testimony, extensive toxicology and forensic reports, and phone calls made by both Zimmerman and Martin on the night of the shooting.

If you are ignorant as to the facts surrounding the case, you really shouldn't be debating it in the first place.



Complete and total nonsense. Under most forms of civil law, nothing short of physical violence or the direct threat of physical violence can be viewed as being justifiable provocation to attack another person.

Considering the fact that Martin deliberately doubled back in order to confront Martin after making it home, neither consideration can be said to apply here. Simply put, Trayvon Martin was looking for trouble, and he found it.



There was no reason he had to "escape." He chose to run.

What eye witness testimony

 

[Gathomas88]

Can you recognize the bias and prejudice in the language you use here and what you allow yourself to deduce based on almost no fact not to mention what you credit as "fact".

Everything I presented in the post you quoted can be gleaned either from toxicology reports, or from Zimmerman and Martin's own words in phone calls to either friends or the police.

It was also the version of events accepted by the jury during the actual trial.

If you can provide any kind of rebuttal that's actually worth a damn, feel free to present it.

What eye witness testimony

Jonathan Good.

 

[opendebate]

Everything I presented in the post you quoted can be gleaned either from toxicology reports, or from Zimmerman and Martin's own words in phone calls to either friends or the police.

It was also the version of events accepted by the jury during the actual trial.

If you can provide any kind of rebuttal that's actually worth a damn, feel free to present it.


Jonathan Good.

I do not believe the jury made a decision about how events transpired that night. They made a decision as to whether or not reasonable doubt remained concerning George Zimmerman's guilty to 2nd degree murder or manslaughter charges. What informs your statement that the jury accepted that version of events?

Dressing how you chose as long as it is not indecent is not illegal and should subject anyone to suspicion or being followed?

Him "walking funny" or whatever you called it is testimony from George Zimmerman and that does not make it a fact. The absence of testimony to challenge George Zimmermans version, also does not make it fact.

What informs your statement that he was high?

What do you believe was Johnathan Good testimony?

 

[Gathomas88]

I do not believe the jury made a decision about how events transpired that night. They made a decision as to whether or not reasonable doubt remained concerning George Zimmerman's guilty to 2nd degree murder or manslaughter charges. What informs your statement that the jury accepted that version of events?

Again, this was the version of events put forward at the trial, and the version of events followed by most media sources. It is also the version of events supported by the transcripts of Zimmerman's initial 911 call and the testimony provided by Trayvon's friend, Rachel Jeantel.

If you have a better one, go ahead and present it. Otherwise, simply concede the point.

You're essentially quibbling over nothing here.

Dressing how you chose as long as it is not indecent is not illegal and should subject anyone to suspicion or being followed?

It also just so happens to be exactly the way someone who was scoping the area out for possible criminal activity would dress given the circumstances. What's your point?

Was this man guilty of "racial profiling" as well?

Black Man Shoots White Teen, Jury says Self Defense. And Nobody Cares

The circumstances were virtually identical to the Trayvon Martin killing, only with the racial background of the people involved (not really, because Zimmerman wasn't white, but that's incidental as far as media coverage is concerned) reversed.

Him "walking funny" or whatever you called it is testimony from George Zimmerman and that does not make it a fact. The absence of testimony to challenge George Zimmermans version, also does not make it fact.

Why on Earth would he lie during a 911 call? :roll:

As captain of the neighborhood watch, it was frankly Zimmerman's job to take an interest in individuals that he perceived to be suspicious.

What informs your statement that he was high?

Trayvon Martin's autopsy, for one.

New Evidence Released: Trayvon Martin Had Traces Of Pot In System

Zimmerman reported in his initial 911 call that Martin was acting like he was high. Lo and behold, medical science backs up his claim!

Go figure, right? :roll:

 

[Medusa]

Again, this was the version of events put forward at the trial, and the version of events followed by most media sources. It is also the version of events supported by the transcripts of Zimmerman's initial 911 call and the testimony provided by Trayvon's friend, Rachel Jeantel.

If you have a better one, go ahead and present it. Otherwise, simply concede the point.

You're essentially quibbling over nothing here.



It also just so happens to be exactly the way someone who was scoping the area out for possible criminal activity would dress given the circumstances. What's your point?

Was this man guilty of "racial profiling" as well?

Black Man Shoots White Teen, Jury says Self Defense. And Nobody Cares

The circumstances were virtually identical to the Trayvon Martin killing, only with the racial background of the people involved (not really, because Zimmerman wasn't white, but that's incidental as far as media coverage is concerned) reversed.



Why on Earth would he lie during a 911 call? :roll:

As captain of the neighborhood watch, it was frankly Zimmerman's job to take an interest in individuals that he perceived to be suspicious.



Trayvon Martin's autopsy, for one.

New Evidence Released: Trayvon Martin Had Traces Of Pot In System

Zimmerman reported in his initial 911 call that Martin was acting like he was high. Lo and behold, medical science backs up his claim!

Go figure, right? :roll:

l defend the white victim too

but why do you think nobody cares about him ?

 

[Gathomas88]

l defend the white victim too

but why do you think nobody cares about him ?

There's certainly no one rioting in the streets over his shooting.

In any case, I fully admit that Zimmerman probably shouldn't have gotten out of his car.

However, that does not excuse Trayvon's decision to bolt in the first place, or his later decision to turn around and directly confront Zimmerman either.

It was a bad situation that was exacerbated by impulsive decision making on the parts of both people involved. It was not "murder."

 

[Captain America]

I read this and found it interesting so I thought I'd share.

They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English.
I can't even talk the way these people talk:
Why you ain't,
Where you is,
What he drive,
Where he stay,
Where he work,
Who you be...
And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.
And then I heard the father talk.
Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth.
In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living.

People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an Education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around.
The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal.
These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids.
$500 sneakers for what?
And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.

I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.
Where were you when he was 2?
Where were you when he was 12?
Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol?
And where is the father? Or who is his father?
People putting their clothes on backward:
Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong?
People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something?

Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of needles [piercing] going through her body?
What part of Africa did this come from??
We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa .....

I say this all of the time. It would be like white people saying they are European-American. That is totally stupid.
I was born here, and so were my parents and grand parents and, very likely my great grandparents. I don't have any connection to Africa, no more than white Americans have to Germany , Scotland , England , Ireland , or the Netherlands . The same applies to 99 percent of all the black Americans as regards to Africa . So stop, already! ! !
With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap ......... And all of them are in jail.

Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.
We have got to take the neighborhood back.
People used to be ashamed. Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' -- or men or whatever you call them now.
We have millionaire football players who cannot read.
We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs. We, as black folks have to do a better job.
Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us.
We have to start holding each other to a higher standard..
We cannot blame the white people any longer.'

~Dr.. William Henry 'Bill' Cosby, Jr., Ed..D.

 

[Medusa]

There's certainly no one rioting in the streets over his shooting.

In any case, I fully admit that Zimmerman probably shouldn't have gotten out of his car.

However, that does not excuse Trayvon's decision to bolt in the first place, or his later decision to turn around and directly confront Zimmerman either.

It was a bad situation that was exacerbated by impulsive decision making on the parts of both people involved. It was not "murder."

l agree and thats why l believe zimmerman is guilty

he started it

l think you agree with me too


a passage about your first statement


Happily, incidents such as Mr Martin’s death are becoming rarer. The number of killings in which “stand your ground” is invoked in Florida has fallen in recent years. Although blacks are more likely to be attacked by strangers (of any race) than whites, they are less than half as likely to be attacked as they were 20 years ago. The odds of being attacked correlate more with age and income than race. And only 10% of violent confrontations involve a gun.

Race and crime: Trayvon

 

[Gathomas88]

l agree and thats why l believe zimmerman is guilty

he started it

l think you agree with me too

I agree that it would've been better if it had never happened in the first place. However, as I said, none of that necessarily equates to "murder."

Murder requires deliberate malicious intent. Zimmerman did not display any such intent.

The problem with claiming that Zimmerman "started it" is that the shooting basically consisted of two completely different confrontations. Zimmerman initiated the first by following Zimmerman, and Martin initiated the second by returning to the scene of the first incident after he had already managed to evade Zimmerman earlier in the night.

They both had opportunities to simply "walk away" and forget the whole thing. Neither did.

Trayvon simply happens to have been the one who made the final play. If Zimmerman had tackled Trayvon in the initial chase and then shot him, I would agree that a murder had taken place. However, available evidence does not support such a series of events.

It actually seems to indicate that Trayvon was likely the one who started the fight that lead to the shooting. This makes Zimmerman's actions self defense.

a passage about your first statement

Happily, incidents such as Mr Martin’s death are becoming rarer. The number of killings in which “stand your ground” is invoked in Florida has fallen in recent years. Although blacks are more likely to be attacked by strangers (of any race) than whites, they are less than half as likely to be attacked as they were 20 years ago. The odds of being attacked correlate more with age and income than race. And only 10% of violent confrontations involve a gun.

Race and crime: Trayvon

I absolutely agree. The fewer shooting deaths there are in this country, the better.

No one wants violence.

 

[ric27]

All of my friends at work are black and it seems almost impossible to have any kind or rational discussion about this case. What is it about this case that has such an emotional hold on some people they can't look at it objectively? Whenever I see or hear cases where a white person dies I don't feel any attachment to them, it doesn't affect me any more or less than the death of Trayvon. I guess I'm just curious as to why is there such a bond between black people that doesn't seem to be there among white people. What are your opinions on this?

If we all work towards, the goal that all defendants *be it white, black or brown* are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law maybe things would turn out ok

Mob justice/street justice mixed with unsubstantiated, false allegations and personal attacks on any defendant must cease and the innocent until proven guilty *mentality* must take it's place

 

[ABC10]

All of my friends at work are black and it seems almost impossible to have any kind or rational discussion about this case. What is it about this case that has such an emotional hold on some people they can't look at it objectively? Whenever I see or hear cases where a white person dies I don't feel any attachment to them, it doesn't affect me any more or less than the death of Trayvon. I guess I'm just curious as to why is there such a bond between black people that doesn't seem to be there among white people. What are your opinions on this?

My Lib friends and family are all white and it is impossible to hold a rational discussion about this case with them. This is the wrong issue. Black on black crime, shooting and murder is the issue. Blacks are afraid of the guy down the street shooting them not some random event in Florida. We all wish this had not happened. Still the jury found the defendant Not Guilty and the case is over.

 

[CRUE CAB]

My Lib friends and family are all white and it is impossible to hold a rational discussion about this case with them. This is the wrong issue. Black on black crime, shooting and murder is the issue. Blacks are afraid of the guy down the street shooting them not some random event in Florida. We all wish this had not happened. Still the jury found the defendant Not Guilty and the case is over.

It wont be over untill Zimmerman is found dead, drawn and quartered, with a Black Panther holding his head in victory on the White House lawn.