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A different way to think about estate taxes.

Silliness. Have you ever run a business? It's more that just its' assets. What about liabilities - like loans - that may make additional financing impossible?

You assume an astute business man can just just snap their fingers and make money appear. Ain't how the real world works.
This whole argument is clearly an expression of revenge for perceived wrongs by perceived wealthy people, it’s not based on anything else. Nearly all of this is claiming there is a moral imperative to tax people out of their homes and businesses because she didn’t get the promotion she deserved
 
This whole argument is clearly an expression of revenge for perceived wrongs by perceived wealthy people, it’s not based on anything else. Nearly all of this is claiming there is a moral imperative to tax people out of their homes and businesses because she didn’t get the promotion she deserved

How dare anyone amass an estate worth over $400K during their lifetime. After all, that would leave *gasp* over $200K each if they had two heirs. ;)

 
How dare anyone amass an estate worth over $400K during their lifetime. After all, that would leave *gasp* over $200K each if they had two heirs. ;)

But we got to fight the big corporations. We would live in a feudal society if average Americans didn’t pay 40% tax on the value of their IRA and house!
 
But we got to fight the big corporations. We would live in a feudal society if average Americans didn’t pay 40% tax on the value of their IRA and house!

Only on the excess value. ;)
 
Did it tax real property and inheritance of small businesses on full market valuation? I don’t care what it taxed cash
From what I can tell, it worked the same way as today's did, based on market valuation.

.Eisenhower’s America didn’t rape small family businesses of all their money because of your wierd socialist ideas.
As a reminder, Eisenhower's America's taxed estates up to 77% and incomes up to 92% (federal income taxes alone!) Of course, back then fewer Americans were pathetic little forelock-tuggers, who spent their days shrieking "socialism" as the prospect of aggressive taxation of the very rich.

I don’t care what someone’s blog claims about tax code. Please refer me to the printed edition of the code, volume and page number.
Didn't click on it, did you, dummy? It's not someone's blog. It's the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as amended to August 12, 1957. I gave you the page number. It's a PDF of the original document, copyright 1957, Library of Congress Catalog Card No: 41-26375.

That would be the practical effect of taking out a mortgage on a property that’s already paid off
No. You don't need to go to a big bank. We're talking about a loan that would be backed by 60% equity. You'd have a long list of lenders willing to make such a loan, including small banks and S&L's.
 
Arguing over tip sharing is not “financial consulting”
Your envy is hilarious.
It’s very indicative of this spiteful attitude you seem to have though that you consider living off of social security to be shameful.
I don't. If you feel ashamed about living off the dole, that's on you. Consider getting a job.
 
All they have to do to convert it into income is liquidate it and the government will take as much as 20% through capital gains. Conspicuously similar to the 20% ROI on a small company you stated earlier in the thread.

Of course, inflation is going to eat some of that as well...

I don't think you are looking at the whole picture here, just what you want to in order to justify the taxation.
They can, of course, liquidate it, if they want, in which case it's still a huge windfall. No, it would not be subject to capital gains, because under the current system heirs get stepped-up basis.
 
From what I can tell, it worked the same way as today's did, based on market valuation.


As a reminder, Eisenhower's America's taxed estates up to 77% and incomes up to 92% (federal income taxes alone!) Of course, back then fewer Americans were pathetic little forelock-tuggers, who spent their days shrieking "socialism" as the prospect of aggressive taxation of the very rich.


Didn't click on it, did you, dummy? It's not someone's blog. It's the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as amended to August 12, 1957. I gave you the page number. It's a PDF of the original document, copyright 1957, Library of Congress Catalog Card No: 41-26375.


No. You don't need to go to a big bank. We're talking about a loan that would be backed by 60% equity. You'd have a long list of lenders willing to make such a loan, including small banks and S&L's.

Hmm… How many banks would lend to an estate?
 
My son will own them.

Thankfully we have people smarter than you to make sure the government doesn't one more penny than necessary from him.
It's family property. Pretty simple. nobody else owns it or deserves it.
 
That would make the net (after your proposed 40% estate tax) estate value from a $1M estate $760K. When split (equally) among 4 heirs that would be $190K each (not $150K or $250K).
$250k would be the pre-tax amount of $1M split four ways. $150k would be the amount of each person's take that is subject to taxes. Each would ten pay $60,000 in taxes from that. So, yes, the after-tax proceeds for each would be $190k ($100k tax-free, then $90k from the $150k that was subject to taxes).
 
Not under federal income tax law, but it might be under state income tax law.






Poor choice of words, I wasn't referring to income as in income subject to taxes. More as something that increased their net worth, like a single payment. Yes, businesses produce revenue streams, but anything can be brought to net present value.
 
They can, of course, liquidate it, if they want, in which case it's still a huge windfall. No, it would not be subject to capital gains, because under the current system heirs get stepped-up basis.
You are confusing the initial windfall from how you described deriving income from it. If it is taken and invested after being received, and then is to be liquidated, partially, to use it as liquidity, you will not escape capital gains.
 
You are confusing the initial windfall from how you described deriving income from it. If it is taken and invested after being received, and then is to be liquidated, partially, to use it as liquidity, you will not escape capital gains.
What he means is we can assume that e.g. Bezos has a tax basis in his AMZN shares of roughly $0 per share. Under current rules if he leaves that to his heirs, he would liquidate shares to pay tax, then the heirs receive a bunch of shares, and the sold shares and what's transferred are stepped up to FMV on the date of death. So the heirs receive shares with a basis of about $135/sh based on today's close. If they sold them all tomorrow, they will pay roughly $0 in capital gains taxes, or the difference between selling price and $135.

So the unrealized gain worth $billions between Bezos' tax basis of $0/sh and $135/sh will forever escape capital gains tax, under current rules. That also means if you inherit the house papa bought in 1947 for $3,000 and it's worth $590,000 today, heirs have a basis in that house of $590K.
 
What he means is we can assume that e.g. Bezos has a tax basis in his AMZN shares of roughly $0 per share. Under current rules if he leaves that to his heirs, he would liquidate shares to pay tax, then the heirs receive a bunch of shares, and the sold shares and what's transferred are stepped up to FMV on the date of death. So the heirs receive shares with a basis of about $135/sh based on today's close. If they sold them all tomorrow, they will pay roughly $0 in capital gains taxes, or the difference between selling price and $135.

So the unrealized gain worth $billions between Bezos' tax basis of $0/sh and $135/sh will forever escape capital gains tax, under current rules. That also means if you inherit the house papa bought in 1947 for $3,000 and it's worth $590,000 today, heirs have a basis in that house of $590K.
I know what he meant. I am talking about his actual post where he described making income through investment and leaving out the taxes that have to paid to liquidate gains on that investment.
 
Yet, even between a so-called "job creator" and a lazy heir, the lazy heir gets taxed less. My taxes on the capital gains of a growing business may be lower than the taxes paid by actual laborers, but they're still higher than the taxes paid by an spoiled rich kid who gets the exact same money simply by way of being someone's heir. In effect, the less work you do to earn a given sum of money, the less tax the Republicans want you to pay on it.
Because, according to supply side idiots, even the lazy heir is a job creator.
 
Your envy is hilarious.

I don't. If you feel ashamed about living off the dole, that's on you. Consider getting a job.
Apparently your idea of living off the dole is collecting social security, which isn’t really a giant own.
 
$250k would be the pre-tax amount of $1M split four ways. $150k would be the amount of each person's take that is subject to taxes. Each would ten pay $60,000 in taxes from that. So, yes, the after-tax proceeds for each would be $190k ($100k tax-free, then $90k from the $150k that was subject to taxes).

You have no idea how estate or income taxation works, but did come up with very different ways to think about how they could be done.
 
You should read up on how estate taxes work. You aren't taxed on a business's assets. You're taxed on its VALUE. That factors in all the assets and the liabilities. If, for example, you had a business that consisted of nothing but a $2M debt and $2.1M in the bank, it would have a value of $100k.

Here in the real world, if you have a business worth millions of dollars, and can't get a loan for less than 40% of that even while mortgaging the business, it's probably a good sign that you shouldn't have pooped yourself and masturbated while meeting with the loan officer.
I don't own a business so I have no clue how businesses are taxed for estate purposes. I used assets because that's what I thought you said in the OP though on the-reading your OP I see you used value.

Banks routinely loan 40% of the value of business? Even to a new owner? That doesn't sound right to me tbh. And even if they did, assuming a business valued at 5,000,000 the monthly nut has got be around 20K. That's going to be a serious cash flow hit.
 
I have, at points. I'm a financial analyst. I have done that work both as an employee for one of the big accounting companies, and as a freelancer. It doesn't come down to risk aversion, but rather what gives me the best cost/benefit balance, overall.


There's a tendency among the fluffers of the upper class to talk about risk-taking. But actual risk-taking involves things like logging, or fishing, driving for a living, working up on electrical lines or on construction sites -- things that come with a serious risk of death or tangible bodily harm. "Risk" isn't using daddy's money to pay someone to expand the resort you inherited.
Sam Walton took over a failed 5 & dime built it into a chain of successful Ben Franklin stores, leveraged them against the advice of his wife to open Walmart, you know how that came out. At every junction he took tremendous risks, battled competition, and succeded when the consensus was he'd fail. Why shouldn't he be able to pass along the fruits of his labor to his heirs? Or, is that only something Democrat elites like Joe Kennedy can do? His spoiled brat rich kids never had to work a day in their lives.

Oh wait, FDR engaged in multiple failed business ventures before relying on mommy for financial support for the rest of his life. But don't worry he spent his political career railing against so-called economic royalists despite being the poster child for them.
 
Call it what you want, but the fact is someone like Buffett or Zuck is sitting on $billions in untaxed capital gains.

No, because there is no capital gain until the asset is sold.

If you want those families to have a perhaps century long tax advantage over you who has to sell stocks to pay for living expenses in retirement, that's fine, but I don't see why you'd think it's a good thing.

If you want equality between me and Warren Buffett, then abolish capital gains taxes altogether.

And the societal problem with that is the spoiled rich heirs are typically nothing like the family member that earned the riches.

Why is leaving money to your children a "societal problem", comrade?
 
No, because there is no capital gain until the asset is sold.
But there's a step up in basis at death to FMV. Without an estate tax those $billions are never taxed. We could require heirs to carry over the basis of inherited property, but that's a logistical nightmare for families. My mom has been in her house since 1973. Who knows what 'improvements' she's made in the last 50 years, or what they paid for it. It's worse for things like jewelry or artwork, or even a car.
If you want equality between me and Warren Buffett, then abolish capital gains taxes altogether.
That makes no sense at all.
Why is....?
I hate it when people snip part of my comment, then ask a question that's at least partially answered in what they chose to omit from the quote. If you want to know the answer to your question, read my posts. I explained it in part in what you snipped, and in other posts.

Bottom line is there's no reason some spoiled rich trust fund baby should have the immense power many $millions or $billions give them when all they did to earn that power was win the sperm lottery.
 
But there's a step up in basis at death to FMV. Without an estate tax those $billions are never taxed.

Good!

We could require heirs to carry over the basis of inherited property, but that's a logistical nightmare for families. My mom has been in her house since 1973. Who knows what 'improvements' she's made in the last 50 years, or what they paid for it. It's worse for things like jewelry or artwork, or even a car.

That makes no sense at all.

No, what makes no sense at all is why you are arguing to give a government full of idiots even more money to waste.

I hate it when people snip part of my comment, then ask a question that's at least partially answered in what they chose to omit from the quote. If you want to know the answer to your question, read my posts. I explained it in part in what you snipped, and in other posts.

Sorry, it's an old Usenet habit that for some reason is hard to break. Here's the part I omitted:

There's obviously a benefit for people to be rewarded by hard work, inventions, etc. but there's no good argument those benefits should produce an American aristocracy that rules this country for generations.

The response to this ignorant shit is that people have the inalienable right to leave their money to their children, end of story.

Bottom line is there's no reason some spoiled rich trust fund baby should have the immense power many $millions or $billions give them when all they did to earn that power was win the sperm lottery.

What power does a rich kid have over you? Be specific.
 
OK, so you want $billionaires to never pay tax. I'll never understand why regular people carry the water for the plutocrats.
No, what makes no sense at all is why you are arguing to give a government full of idiots even more money to waste.
That's a different argument, so you moved the goal post from drivel to a talking point.

If Buffett or his heirs don't pay tax, guess who will? You and me. If you want that result, by all means carry on defending the $billionaire class. They appreciate the support.
The response to this ignorant shit is that people have the inalienable right to leave their money to their children, end of story.
First of all, you can disagree with my post but that doesn't make it ignorant.

Where is this "inalienable" right listed?
What power does a rich kid have over you? Be specific.
Are you really going to argue that you and me have the same political power as Warren Buffett et al.? Or that your local county commission doesn't dance for that area's wealthy elite?
 
OK, so you want $billionaires to never pay tax. I'll never understand why regular people carry the water for the plutocrats.

That's a different argument, so you moved the goal post from drivel to a talking point.

No, it isn't. We don't start with the assumption that politicians are wise and benevolent. Do you know why? Because they are demonstrably not.

If Buffett or his heirs don't pay tax, guess who will? You and me. If you want that result, by all means carry on defending the $billionaire class. They appreciate the support.

Ah, the "misery loves company" argument for higher taxes on other people. For some reason I don't find it very compelling.

First of all, you can disagree with my post but that doesn't make it ignorant.

Where is this "inalienable" right listed?

Do you have the right to masturbate, or is masturbation a government-granted privilege?

If you believe you have the right to masturbate, where is it listed?
Are you really going to argue that you and me have the same political power as Warren Buffett et al.? Or that your local county commission doesn't dance for that area's wealthy elite?

Ah, so the real problem is government power, and not that some people are richer than others.
 
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