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A charter school vs a government-run school - in the same building

These despicable public unions are part of the progressive regulatory state, which is why this belongs in government regulation forum.

Anyway, Thomas Sowell points out the results of a charter school which rents space inside of a government-run school (timestamped):



Just like in the healthcare industry, these terrible outcomes are the result of putting the interests of the workers ahead of what's best for consumers.


As an elected officer in a public employee union (in my case a law enforcement union) I politely state to you it is the protections and advancement of the work space of that union that made employment of my collage educated, multiple certified, self in that line of work.

When I started in the late ‘70’s cops made a bit less than garbage men. The job attracted from the same employment pools. You got big, strong, guys who were physically adept but not long in brain power. Yet cops were starting being asked to have skills in sociology, psychology, violence deescalation.. I’ve even had the need of plumbing and electrician skills to prevent circumstances that would cause late night, large scale, building evacuations.

I’ve gotten medals for things like breaking up street gangs and for saving lives. Never got one for finding a way to solve a problem that prevented having to call in the Red Cross to relocate 20 families at 2 AM the morning. I’d think it was worthy of one {silly grin} but they don’t give out ribbons for that…

By the time I retired we made what professional people with a diverse skill set to do big city policing deserve. (Sort of, I think it’s worth more but at least we were much better paid) .

You wouldn’t get people like me on that job without that union. You want not just strong of body and character, but smart in a very broad set of areas on that job to do the things officers are being asked to do today.

They require a strong union to protect their interests given how challenging the blow back of doing their job can be.

You want quality? You pay for it and you protect them adequately. You get the quality of the employees your money and work experience state you’re looking for.
 
These despicable public unions are part of the progressive regulatory state, which is why this belongs in government regulation forum.

Anyway, Thomas Sowell points out the results of a charter school which rents space inside of a government-run school (timestamped):



Just like in the healthcare industry, these terrible outcomes are the result of putting the interests of the workers ahead of what's best for consumers.

In most states (all?), charter schools are publicly funded schools and, ultimately, governed by the state. They certainly are here in MA.

What they're not is unionized, and that's what makes all the difference.
 
It’s amazing how when you allow schools to pick and choose what students they accept? They have higher outcomes.

Crazy!

Charter schools get to choose who they do/don’t admit. Public schools do not.
Not in MA. It is illegal for charters to select their students.
 
You have a choice 🤷‍♀️

You don’t get taxpayer money for it.

Private schools don’t have to abide federal law regarding providing equal access to education to disabled kids. That’s part of why they don’t receive federal tax dollars.

If they don’t follow the laws, they don’t get the money 🤷‍♀️

Either they accept everyone and provide everyone educational opportunities or they don’t get the money. Schools dont get to discriminate and have tax payers fund that.
A choice for only the wealthy?

Good plan, really.
 
Here's a collection of passages from studies on student outcomes from MA's traditional public schools and MA public charter schools. These studies were conducted by researchers from universities such as MIT and Stanford. This is what the teachers unions, and their enablers, oppose (emphasis added):

Compared to the educational gains that charter students would have had in a traditional public school (TPS), the analysis shows on average that students in Massachusetts charter schools make larger learning gains in both reading and mathematics. At the school level, 44 percent of the charter schools have significantly more positive learning gains than their TPS counterparts in reading, while 13 percent of charter schools have significantly lower learning gains. In math, 56 percent of the charter schools studied outperform their TPS peers and 17 percent perform worse.

Using randomized admission lotteries, this paper finds strong positive effects of Boston’s elementary, middle, and high schools for special education and ELL students. Charters generate substantial gains for special needs students in math and English standardized exam scores, English proficiency, and college preparation outcomes. Even the most disadvantaged special needs students perform better in charter schools compared to traditional public schools.

Furthermore, charters remove special needs classifications at a higher rate than traditional public schools and move special education students to more inclusive classrooms.

Among students attending BPS schools, special education students and ELL students score about 0.87 and 0.39 standard deviations respectively below non-special needs students in math. Since charters generate math gains of 0.266 standard deviations for special education students, one year in a charter reduces the special education achievement gaps by 30.5 percent. ELL students score 0.345 standard deviations higher in charters, narrowing the ELL achievement gap by 88.0 percent.

Setren compared the achievement of special needs lottery applicants in charters and in traditional public schools, and was surprised to discover that across the board, regardless of their level of need, these students are much more successful in charter schools. In fact, for English-language learners, a year in a charter school essentially allowed them to catch up to native English speakers in traditional public schools, erasing much of the achievement gap that typically exists.

on average, charter students in Massachusetts gain an additional one and a half months of learning in reading over their TPS counterparts. In math, the advantage for charter students is about two and a half months of additional learning in one school year. Charter students in Boston gain an additional 12 months in reading and 13 months in math per school year compared to their TPS counterparts.

We examined the score results by student subgroups and find that [charter] gains are largest for minority students but smaller for white students. In middle school, gains are larger for students who score worse on their baseline exams. At both school levels, gains are particularly large for English language learners, though the sample in high school is too small for precise estimates…MCAS analysis leads to an interesting conclusion: those who are most likely to succeed in Boston charter schools are the least likely to enroll in them, especially in middle school …Like earlier studies, this report finds that attending a charter school in Boston dramatically improves students’ MCAS performance and proficiency rates. The largest gains appear to be for students of color and particularly large gains were found for English Language Learners.

Charters generate substantial gains for special needs students in math and English standardized exam scores, English proficiency, and college preparation outcomes. Even the most disadvantaged special needs students perform better in charter schools compared to traditional public schools.

Links to the studies can be found here: http://natmortonblog.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/research-on-ma-charters/
 
But public education is failing. Look at the standatdized test scores. Colleges have been forced to put together remedial courses for incoming freshmen.

"The 2013 National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) reading test results demonstrate that far too many young people continue to read below grade level. Sixty five percent of all U.S. fourth graders scored “below proficient,” which means that they are not reading at grade level. Only 35 percent of fourth graders are reading at or above grade level."


If the public schools are to educate every child, they are failing miserably. There is no reason not to give parents the choice through a voucher system.
Arizona has a voucher system. Guess who just ranked 51st in the country in education. Below such heavy hitters as Arkansas and Alabama.

One of their biggest universities had to change the first semester of their nursing school from actual nursing to remedial catch-up classes

Yay voucher system
 
Not a good way to measure "success", at least if you tend to blame educators
So, what objective means should be used to measure educator performance? Parents measure by what students learn, so do employers.
They have a choice without vouchers. The public school where I live are outstanding.........and no, we ain't wealthy
Without a voucher system the "choices" are limited to whatever the teachers unions dictate. Open enrollment public schools give preference to students who live in the area meaning higher priced homes for outstanding schools.

Good for you if the public schools where you live are outstanding how ever you measure that. The national statistics tell a different story. Care to comment?
 
It’s amazing how when you allow schools to pick and choose what students they accept? They have higher outcomes.

Crazy!

Charter schools get to choose who they do/don’t admit. Public schools do not.
Charter schools take any student who can pay.
The only limit is their seating capacity.
 
This is what the teachers unions, and their enablers, oppose
You realize those charter school teachers can and have unionized, right?



 
Charter schools take any student who can pay.
The only limit is their seating capacity.
Not even remotely close to true.

Whether or not a charter school accepts special education students is not a universal standard. Some accept public funding and do accept special education students. Some do not accept public funding and do not accept special education students. Some parents pay for. Some there is no cost to parents.
 
You realize those charter school teachers can and have unionized, right?




Yes, we have them here in MA. We call them "Pilot Schools," and some of the same studies I cited in post 32 show they perform even worse than the state's traditional public schools.
 
Not even remotely close to true.

Whether or not a charter school accepts special education students is not a universal standard. Some accept public funding and do accept special education students. Some do not accept public funding and do not accept special education students. Some parents pay for. Some there is no cost to parents.
Is there a state where charter schools are not publically funded?
 
It’s amazing how when you allow schools to pick and choose what students they accept? They have higher outcomes.

Crazy!

Charter schools get to choose who they do/don’t admit. Public schools do not.
And I know this for a fact as I married a teacher: Charter schools to not have to live up to the same standards or mandates that public schools do. And charter schools typically score lower.
 
Arizona has a voucher system. Guess who just ranked 51st in the country in education. Below such heavy hitters as Arkansas and Alabama.

One of their biggest universities had to change the first semester of their nursing school from actual nursing to remedial catch-up classes

Yay voucher system
What evidence is there that the voucher system is responsible for the alleged poor performance?

Thanks to Kim Jung Biden’s open borders policy there is a flood of low performing children in our schools. More charter schools could ease the pressure.
 
You have a choice 🤷‍♀️

You don’t get taxpayer money for it.

Private schools don’t have to abide federal law regarding providing equal access to education to disabled kids. That’s part of why they don’t receive federal tax dollars.

If they don’t follow the laws, they don’t get the money 🤷‍♀️

Either they accept everyone and provide everyone educational opportunities or they don’t get the money. Schools dont get to discriminate and have tax payers fund that.
Sadly they are getting state funds in some states. Not sure about federal.
 
Because when it comes to bargaining, the taxpayer doesn't get to sit at the table
School boards - elected by the public - are what negotiate union contracts with teachers.

So, while tax payers are not directly sitting at the table - their elected representatives ARE.
 
But aren’t they free to expel students too?
Yes, as are traditional public schools.

If you're angling for the union talking point that MA charters boost their grades by pushing out weaker students, that doesn't hold, either, since the studies I cited control for that factor.
 
But aren’t they free to expel students too?
Charter schools are notorious for “counseling out” students with disabilities.

 
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