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A charter school vs a government-run school - in the same building

Charter schools are notorious for “counseling out” students with disabilities.

In MA, that is nonsense. Emphasis added:

Special education and English Language Learners experience large achievement gaps and account for a disproportionate amount of school spending. Whether and how well charter schools serve special needs students remains a central controversy in the charter school debate. I use admissions lotteries from nearly every charter school in Boston to estimate the effects of charter enrollment on special needs students’ classification and achievement. Charter schools remove special needs classifications and move special education students into more inclusive classrooms at a rate over two times higher than traditional public schools. Despite this reduction in special needs services, charters increase special needs students’ test scores, likelihood of meeting a high school graduation requirement, and likelihood of earning a state merit scholarship. Charters benefit even the most disadvantaged special needs students: those with the lowest test scores and those who receive the most services at the time of lottery. Non-experimental evidence suggests that the classification removal explains at most 26 percent of the achievement gains for special needs students and has no detrimental effect. The results show that special needs students can achieve gains without the traditional set of special needs services in the charter environment.
Source: https://economics.nd.edu/assets/226879/setren_job_market_paper.pdf
 
Charter schools are notorious for “counseling out” students with disabilities.


... and Bailey appears to be a biased source, having earned her living (and, no doubt, continued retirement benefits) from the system she is defending.
 
What I’m hearing is that ALL SCHOOLS, to include private colleges and universities should be made public so that every child gets a so called education.
So what’s the difference between a private university or college being selective and private grade schools? What about private Montessori schools. Should they be forced to accept children whose parents can’t afford the cha-ching? Where’s the freedom of choice or is that a thing of the past? No freedom to choose and you start to erode at the other tenets of a free and democratic society.
 
... and Bailey appears to be a biased source, having earned her living (and, no doubt, continued retirement benefits) from the system she is defending.
No, they point out that charter schools tend to only accept the students with the least special education needs.

And, your own source shows how charter schools then classify students OUT of getting services.
 
No, they point out that charter schools tend to only accept the students with the least special education needs.
That is simply not true. MA charters must accept all kinds of students. It is literally illegal for them to deny access because of special needs.

And, your own source shows how charter schools then classify students OUT of getting services.
Exactly, and isn't that better?
 
That is simply not true. MA charters must accept all kinds of students. It is literally illegal for them to deny access because of special needs.
“Counseling out” is a thing. Whether or not you want to believe that reality.
Exactly, and isn't that better?
Not necessarily and not if the student still has the needs.
 
School boards - elected by the public - are what negotiate union contracts with teachers.

So, while tax payers are not directly sitting at the table - their elected representatives ARE.
School boards elected with the help of union support.
 
“Counseling out” is a thing. Whether or not you want to believe that reality.
It's not happening here an MA, and even it it were, it does not explain the superior student outcomes in MA charters as that factor is controlled for in these studies.

Not necessarily and not if the student still has the needs.
The data says special needs students do better in MA charters than MA traditional public schools. Why should I believe you and not these studies?
 
It's not happening here an MA, and even it it were, it does not explain the superior student outcomes in MA charters as that factor is controlled for in these studies.


The data says special needs students do better in MA charters than MA traditional public schools. Why should I believe you and not these studies?
I’m still reading through the “data” in the 69 page report you linked.

It’s questionable, at best.
 
I’m still reading through the “data” in the 69 page report you linked.

It’s questionable, at best.
See the page linked in post 32. Some of the links there are now dated, but I cite over a dozen studies showing superior student outcomes in MA public charters. The data is overwhelming.
 
So, what objective means should be used to measure educator performance? Parents measure by what students learn, so do employers.
That has been a question since before Christ was born. Some educator have outstanding material to work with, and some have extremely flawed material to work with (I'm talking student s here....) - how do you measure teachers in that situation??
Without a voucher system the "choices" are limited to whatever the teachers unions dictate.
???? you mean state laws.......
Open enrollment public schools give preference to students who live in the area meaning higher priced homes for outstanding schools.
that is state law, etc.........???
Good for you if the public schools where you live are outstanding how ever you measure that. The national statistics tell a different story. Care to comment?

High test scores follow the money-----richer communities = higher scores.

How do you measure success once they leave school? Isn't that the goal?
 
If nobody wants your kid that's telling the parent something. For example he/she is unmotivated, has a behavior problem or a learning disability. These problems need to be addressed. There are solutions. However dumping him/her into public school and disrupting the education of other students isn't one of them.
Have you ever considered that "dumping" may be the problem and not the kid or either the public or charter school?
 
These despicable public unions are part of the progressive regulatory state, which is why this belongs in government regulation forum.

Anyway, Thomas Sowell points out the results of a charter school which rents space inside of a government-run school (timestamped):


Just like in the healthcare industry, these terrible outcomes are the result of putting the interests of the workers ahead of what's best for consumers.

As long as Libs and Progressives are willing to drink their own Kool-Aid, you will have union leaders like Weingarten of the AFT feeding the masses bullshit about how school choice is hurting public education in this country.
 
Best outcome is when the school can pick the kids and the parents can pick the schools. They BOTH have ownership in the decision.

For an individual? Probably.

For an entire population? No.
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BTW - you conditions are mutually exclusive. If the school can cherry pick the kids, then that means the parents desire doesn't matter. If the parent can cherry pick the school, then that means the school desire doesn't matter.

WW
 
Charter schools take any student who can pay.
The only limit is their seating capacity.

I think there is confusion in this thread about "charter" schools and "private" schools.

WW
 
Yes, as are traditional public schools.

If you're angling for the union talking point that MA charters boost their grades by pushing out weaker students, that doesn't hold, either, since the studies I cited control for that factor.

Traditional schools are not free to expel students.

They have to show cause or are subject to being sued. Private schools on the hand can expel students for behavior, for poor academic performance, because the parent has not participated enough, etc.

WW
 
Public schools have to accept every student in the district


You have to apply to get into charter schools they pick the students that want.

Don't be so gullible.
I'm not gullible. I am (was) a charter school parent who's done his research, and I know for a fact that MA your assertion is dead wrong. I suggest you make an effort to become better informed.
 
We don't have unions like that in the State of VA.

WW
I need to amend my comment there. That most charter schools aren't unionized is a factor, but it's not most significant factor leading to their better performance. The biggest reason is that most charters, and all charters in my state, must earn their enrollment.
 
Traditional schools are not free to expel students.

They have to show cause or are subject to being sued. Private schools on the hand can expel students for behavior, for poor academic performance, because the parent has not participated enough, etc.

WW
We're not discussing private schools. We're discussing different types of public schools.
 
I'm not gullible. I am (was) a charter school parent who's done his research, and I know for a fact that MA your assertion is dead wrong. I suggest you make an effort to become better informed.
Fact:

Public schools have to accept every single student in the district, when they show up.

Charter schools do not. You often have to apply 10 months in advance. (That alone eliminates many marginal students).

Also.


"Most also have clauses in their charters to give preference for siblings and/or members of the charter board," Valant says, noting that such admissions practices may also present inequitable scenarios for families. "So they do not and cannot always take any child that wants to attend, whereas traditional public schools do have to take all students."
 
I'm not gullible. I am (was) a charter school parent who's done his research, and I know for a fact that MA your assertion is dead wrong. I suggest you make an effort to become better informed.
Fact:

Public schools have to accept every single student in the district, when they show up.

Charter schools do not. You often have to apply 10 months in advance. (That alone eliminates many marginal students).

Also.


"Most also have clauses in their charters to give preference for siblings and/or members of the charter board," Valant says, noting that such admissions practices may also present inequitable scenarios for families. "So they do not and cannot always take any child that wants to attend, whereas traditional public schools do have to take all students."
 
Fact:

Public schools have to accept every single student in the district, when they show up.

Charter schools do not. You often have to apply 10 months in advance. (That alone eliminates many marginal students).

Also.


"Most also have clauses in their charters to give preference for siblings and/or members of the charter board," Valant says, noting that such admissions practices may also present inequitable scenarios for families. "So they do not and cannot always take any child that wants to attend, whereas traditional public schools do have to take all students."
Fact, in MA it is illegal for charters to reject students for any reason other than capacity. When they're oversubscribed -- and most are, which should tell you something -- they must hold a random lottery.

There are exceptions for siblings so parents can keep their kids together; all that means is that the random selection is at a family level, not just the student level.

Why are you so afraid of of the facts here? Charters have been shown to outperform traditional public schools, and aren't student outcomes the priority for you?
 
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