A charter school vs a government-run school - in the same building

[aociswundumho]

These despicable public unions are part of the progressive regulatory state, which is why this belongs in government regulation forum.

Anyway, Thomas Sowell points out the results of a charter school which rents space inside of a government-run school (timestamped):



Just like in the healthcare industry, these terrible outcomes are the result of putting the interests of the workers ahead of what's best for consumers.

 

[BirdinHand]

It’s amazing how when you allow schools to pick and choose what students they accept? They have higher outcomes.

Crazy!

Charter schools get to choose who they do/don’t admit. Public schools do not.

 

[What if...?]

These despicable public unions are part of the progressive regulatory state, which is why this belongs in government regulation forum.

Anyway, Thomas Sowell points out the results of a charter school which rents space inside of a government-run school (timestamped):



Just like in the healthcare industry, these terrible outcomes are the result of putting the interests of the workers ahead of what's best for consumers.

Which consumers aren’t workers again?

 

[aociswundumho]

Which consumers aren’t workers again?

Only about half of the population works. Yet every living human being is a consumer, from a newborn infant to the oldest person in the world.

 

[What if...?]

Only about half of the population works. Yet every living human being is a consumer, from a newborn infant to the oldest person in the world.

I just have a problem with education that includes 1+1=Jesus. Don’t you like bridges held together with metal and not prayer?

 

[NolanVoyd]

Only about half of the population works. Yet every living human being is a consumer, from a newborn infant to the oldest person in the world.

Charter schools pick their students.

Public schools take everybody.

Try not to be so gullible.

 

[dmpi]

It’s amazing how when you allow schools to pick and choose what students they accept? They have higher outcomes.

Crazy!

Charter schools get to choose who they do/don’t admit. Public schools do not.

Best outcome is when the school can pick the kids and the parents can pick the schools. They BOTH have ownership in the decision.

 

[tshade]

These despicable public unions are part of the progressive regulatory state, which is why this belongs in government regulation forum.

Anyway, Thomas Sowell points out the results of a charter school which rents space inside of a government-run school (timestamped):



Just like in the healthcare industry, these terrible outcomes are the result of putting the interests of the workers ahead of what's best for consumers.

We do a charter inside the public....................the charter kids do much worse on state testing.........

You blame the teachers I see---that is a natural response, bur a fallacy. Quality students = high test scores, everytime.

 

[BirdinHand]

Best outcome is when the school can pick the kids and the parents can pick the schools. They BOTH have ownership in the decision.

No it’s not.

Because that leaves kids excluded.

That’s why we have public education - so ALL children get an education.

 

[dmpi]

No it’s not.

Because that leaves kids excluded.

That’s why we have public education - so ALL children get an education.

If nobody wants your kid that's telling the parent something. For example he/she is unmotivated, has a behavior problem or a learning disability. These problems need to be addressed. There are solutions. However dumping him/her into public school and disrupting the education of other students isn't one of them.

 

[AZRWinger]

No it’s not.

Because that leaves kids excluded.

That’s why we have public education - so ALL children get an education.

But public education is failing. Look at the standatdized test scores. Colleges have been forced to put together remedial courses for incoming freshmen.

"The 2013 National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) reading test results demonstrate that far too many young people continue to read below grade level. Sixty five percent of all U.S. fourth graders scored “below proficient,” which means that they are not reading at grade level. Only 35 percent of fourth graders are reading at or above grade level."

Statistics - The National Children's Book and Literacy Alliance

The following lists statistics regarding literacy and aliteracy from a variety of authoritative sources: “The shares of American 9- and 13-year-olds who say they read for fun on an almost daily basis have dropped from nearly a decade ago and are at the lowest levels since at least the mid-1980s...

thencbla.org

If the public schools are to educate every child, they are failing miserably. There is no reason not to give parents the choice through a voucher system.

 

[tshade]

But public education is failing. Look at the standatdized test scores.

Not a good way to measure "success", at least if you tend to blame educators

"The 2013 National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) reading test results demonstrate that far too many young people continue to read below grade level. Sixty five percent of all U.S. fourth graders scored “below proficient,” which means that they are not reading at grade level. Only 35 percent of fourth graders are reading at or above grade level."

Statistics - The National Children's Book and Literacy Alliance

The following lists statistics regarding literacy and aliteracy from a variety of authoritative sources: “The shares of American 9- and 13-year-olds who say they read for fun on an almost daily basis have dropped from nearly a decade ago and are at the lowest levels since at least the mid-1980s...

thencbla.org

If the public schools are to educate every child, they are failing miserably. There is no reason not to give parents the choice through a voucher system.

They have a choice without vouchers. The public school where I live are outstanding.........and no, we ain't wealthy

 

[Citizen]

Only about half of the population works. Yet every living human being is a consumer, from a newborn infant to the oldest person in the world.

So you think the people that go to school because they are required to do so interests and needs should not be considered????

 

[BirdinHand]

There is no reason not to give parents the choice through a voucher system.

You have a choice

You don’t get taxpayer money for it.

Private schools don’t have to abide federal law regarding providing equal access to education to disabled kids. That’s part of why they don’t receive federal tax dollars.

If they don’t follow the laws, they don’t get the money

Either they accept everyone and provide everyone educational opportunities or they don’t get the money. Schools dont get to discriminate and have tax payers fund that.

 

[Helix]

When the regime eventually changes after the awful that's coming, no public money should go to private "charter" schools. Progressives need to make some things happen rather than fiddle ****ing around while waiting for everyone to catch up. That's what the far right is doing now.

 

[BirdinHand]

If nobody wants your kid that's telling the parent something. For example he/she is unmotivated, has a behavior problem or a learning disability. These problems need to be addressed. There are solutions. However dumping him/her into public school and disrupting the education of other students isn't one of them.

We have a Constitution and federal laws under the Constitution that have faced and held in challenges rising to SCOTUS that says otherwise.

 

[aociswundumho]

So you think the people that go to school because they are required to do so interests and needs should not be considered????

On the contrary, the kids are all that should matter. The political left however is only concerned with funneling taxpayer dollars into the teacher's unions.

 

[StillBallin75]

Funny then, how healthcare systems that put the interests of THE WORKING CLASS AT LARGE as opposed to corporate interests work way better than the slop we have that is getting people Luigi'd in the streets, while a lot of the strongest national education systems in the world are publicly run instead of whatever anarcho-capitalist bootlicking Sowell hellscape you're imagining.

 

[StillBallin75]

On the contrary, the kids are all that should matter. The political left however is only concerned with funneling taxpayer dollars into the teacher's unions.

The private sector doesn't give a flying **** about the kids. Only the parents' money and the taxpayers' money where they can persuade politicians to get their grubby hands on it while they wreck the rest of the school system for everyone else.

You think Linda McMahon and Betsy DeVos are there for the ****ing kids? Lmfao. Also, as if the ****ing teacher unions lobby is the ****ing villain when you have ****ing WWE people and the Blackwater Founders ****ing sister in charge of the ****ing school system.

 

[aociswundumho]

The private sector doesn't give a flying **** about the kids.

More than the public sector does, and there's no question about that. Ask 1000 parents if they would rather send their child to a private school instead of a government-run school and 999 of them will say yes.

Only the parents' money and the taxpayers' money where they can persuade politicians to get their grubby hands on it while they wreck the rest of the school system for everyone else.

The public school system has been wrecked for decades. There's an easy to tell how well the government-run skool system is working, and that is by the education of the populace.

I think we can all agree that reading is one of the most basic and fundamental skills taught in elementary school. The way you learn new subjects is usually by reading, so if you have poor reading skills, it's going to be much harder to learn other important subjects. The unionized teachers in the public school system know this, as do the principals and superintendents. Let's also remember that the average cost per student is 15k per year. So for a class of 25, they are charging the taxpayers $375,000 per year. That's a lot of bread.

So how are they doing? Let's recall that they know how important reading is, and they are charging us $15,000 per kid per year. Here are some literacy statistics for the country:

• 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2024.
• 54% of adults have a literacy below a 6th-grade level (20% are below 5th-grade level).
• Low levels of literacy costs the US up to 2.2 trillion per year.
• 34% of adults lacking literacy proficiency were born outside the US.
• Massachusetts was the state with the highest rate of child literacy.

That's just reading. How about math skills:

Americans are spectacularly bad at answering even the most basic math questions

And in digital problem-solving, US adults came dead last out of 24 countries.

qz.com

So there are the results of the government-run school system. I think they speak for themselves.

I want a progressive here to tell me that the solution to this problem is to give the teacher's unions more money.

 

[Citizen]

On the contrary, the kids are all that should matter. The political left however is only concerned with funneling taxpayer dollars into the teacher's unions.

ReaLy stupid to believe teachers should not have unions. Police have unions, firefighters have unions. Why not teachers?

 

[NolanVoyd]

On the contrary, the kids are all that should matter. The political left however is only concerned with funneling taxpayer dollars into the teacher's unions.

No tax payer dollars are funneled into teacher unions.

 

[aociswundumho]

ReaLy stupid to believe teachers should not have unions. Police have unions, firefighters have unions. Why not teachers?

Because when it comes to bargaining, the taxpayer doesn't get to sit at the table. Democrat politicians give public unions whatever they want, and in return the public unions give democrat politicians large blocs of votes. Even progressive hero FDR was against public sector unions:

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations.

Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

 

[Citizen]

Because when it comes to bargaining, the taxpayer doesn't get to sit at the table. Democrat politicians give public unions whatever they want, and in return the public unions give democrat politicians large blocs of votes. Even progressive hero FDR was against public sector unions:

Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

You pay taxes for goods and services, not to micromanage those who provide the goods and services

 

[Gatsby]

The talent pool is different if students aren't randomly assigned to either the charter school or the public school.

A better way to measure schools:

Take all the factors about their students that are outside of the school's immediate control: Family income, race, sex, family living situation, urban/rural, English proficiency, etc. Now for each student, use machine learning to predict how well such a student would be predicted to do in an average school. Compare that to how well they actually did.

Schools that underperformed the fundamentals of their student body are bad, regardless of their objective test scores. Schools that overperform the fundamentals are good. A school could be in the 20th percentile of test scores and still be an incredible success, if we'd expect it to be in the 5th percentile. Likewise, a school in the 80th percentile could be an abysmal failure if it should be in the 99th percentile.