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4 dead in a lethal terror attack near hebron

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I have no idea, I have no intention to throw wild guesses, and I hope that they won't fall apart. I can't see the Israeli government withdrawing from the peace talks, not even after such terror attacks.

Perhaps they won't "withdraw" from the peace process; they will just make ridiculous demands to the extent where the Palestinians will have no choice but to withdraw. For example, the resuming of the construction of settlements on Palestinian land while the peace talks are supposed to be happening, and which Abbas said was a prerequisite for peace negotiations. That doesn't sound like a government that's very interested in peace talks to me.
 

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Perhaps they won't "withdraw" from the peace process; they will just make ridiculous demands to the extent where the Palestinians will have no choice but to withdraw. For example, the resuming of the construction of settlements on Palestinian land while the peace talks are supposed to be happening, and which Abbas said was a prerequisite for peace negotiations. That doesn't sound like a government that's very interested in peace talks to me.

Israel hasn't resumed building yet, and I hope that it doesn't whilst the talks continue. If you are referring to the settlers resuming building ex-officio, then that is something beyond the Israeli government's control and should not form a pretext for Palestinian withrawal.
 

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what are you suggesting here. Please be more explicit.

Hamas attacks Israel -> Israel retaliates -> Palestinians suffer casualties -> PA withdraw from peace talks

Its a Hamas routine to attack Israel when there is a progress in diplomacy.
 

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Hamas attacks Israel -> Israel retaliates -> Palestinians suffer casualties -> PA withdraw from peace talks

Its a Hamas routine to attack Israel when there is a progress in diplomacy.

So Israel will be killing civilians as well?
 

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Perhaps they won't "withdraw" from the peace process; they will just make ridiculous demands to the extent where the Palestinians will have no choice but to withdraw. For example, the resuming of the construction of settlements on Palestinian land while the peace talks are supposed to be happening, and which Abbas said was a prerequisite for peace negotiations. That doesn't sound like a government that's very interested in peace talks to me.

That's a very pathetic reasoning you got there.

The expiring date of the settlements' natural growth freeze, an action taken by Israel as a good faith action about 10 months ago, was predecided and set. Hence letting it expire by no means can be labeled, as you do label it, "an Israeli ridiculous demand".

If anything the Palestinian demand to continue this good faith move, threatening to withdraw from the peace talks "unless" - proves that they are the ones not interested in peace.

Your logic works in a way that if Israel doesn't fulfill a Palestinian precondition to talking about peace (not peace, talking about peace), then Israel is not interested in peace.

Such logic is torn-off, and if anything, setting preconditions to the talks for peace is a demand, a ridiculous demand in this case, and one that is made by a group that is not interested in peace.

Israel has not made any preconditions to peace talks, but I bet that if it would you won't be saying that by not fulfilling it the Palestinians are objecting to peace, this is merely a proof to your radical anti-Israeli agenda.
 
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Hamas attacks Israel -> Israel retaliates -> Palestinians suffer casualties -> PA withdraw from peace talks

Its a Hamas routine to attack Israel when there is a progress in diplomacy.

Exactly what I said.
They did not expect Israel to withdraw from the peace talks when they've brutally murdered those civilians, they have instead expected it to retaliate and cause the PA to use it as an excuse to withdraw from the peace talks.
 

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Hamas attacks Israel -> Israel retaliates -> Palestinians suffer casualties -> PA withdraw from peace talks

Its a Hamas routine to attack Israel when there is a progress in diplomacy.

Well, there are two points in that cycle where Hamas is not in control. The first is that Israel refrains from retaliation, hence Palestinians won't suffer casualties. The second is that, even if retaliation takes place, the Palestinians, despite casualties on both sides, remain at the peace talks, come-what-may. Let's hope Israel and the Palestinian authorities have the political will not to cede the initiative to Hamas.
 
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Well, there are two points in that cycle where Hamas is not in control. The first is that Israel refrains from retaliation, hence Palestinians won't suffer casualties. The second is that, even if retaliation takes place, the Palestinians, despite casualties on both sides, remain at the peace talks, come-what-may. Let's hope Israel and the Palestinian authorities have the political will not to cede the initiative to Hamas.

Hamas are not included in peace talks. How can there be any possibility of settlement in this situation? This is a genuine question.
 

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So Israel will be killing civilians as well?

It suites you to pop out in a thread talking about a murder of 4 Israelies, one of them a pregnant woman, only when the idea or an Israeli retaliation rises.

Right now it seems that the Israeli goverment isn't going to do anything about it, and even if it will it is highly unlikely to see civilian casualties in IDF operations in the west bank nowerdays, If however Hamas will start launching salvos of rockets on southern Israel the possibility of civilian casualties among Palestinians will rise. I believe we will see an increase Hamas activity if the peace talks will be on the right track.
 

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Hamas are not included in peace talks. How can there be any possibility of settlement in this situation? This is a genuine question.

Easy.
The PLO are the ones recognized by the international community as the Palestinians sole legitimate representatives.
If the PLO reach an agreement with Israel, it will be respected and pushed for by everyone in the International community.
Then even if Hamas shows objection, the solution agreed on by the PLO and Israel will be the sole legit solution to the conflict.
 

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Well, there are two points in that cycle where Hamas is not in control. The first is that Israel refrains from retaliation, hence Palestinians won't suffer casualties. The second is that, even if retaliation takes place, the Palestinians, despite casualties on both sides, remain at the peace talks, come-what-may. Let's hope Israel and the Palestinian authorities have the political will not to cede the initiative to Hamas.

Agreed, but there are certian lines that could be crossed where Israel couldn't refrain from retaliating anymore.
Not so unrealistic scenarion - Hamas starts lunching salvos of rockets on Ashkelon and Sderot on daily basis distrupting life of civilians in that area.
Same goes for the Palestinians, it takes only one shell or a bomb to miss it's designated target to cause a large civilian casualties which the PA will not be able to ignore, even if it is in Gaza.
 
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Easy.
The PLO are the ones recognized by the international community as the Palestinians sole legitimate representatives.
If the PLO reach an agreement with Israel, it will be respected and pushed for by everyone in the International community.
Then even if Hamas shows objection, the solution agreed on by the PLO and Israel will be the sole legit solution to the conflict.

I have heard people say that Hamas are the legit ones as far as Palestinians are concerned. Are the talks to please the international community or to get peace with the Palestinians. If peace is wanted with the palestinians I cannot see how that is possible without engaging Hamas the elected representatives.
 

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It suites you to pop out in a thread talking about a murder of 4 Israelies, one of them a pregnant woman, only when the idea or an Israeli retaliation rises.

Right now it seems that the Israeli goverment isn't going to do anything about it, and even if it will it is highly unlikely to see civilian casualties in IDF operations in the west bank nowerdays, If however Hamas will start launching salvos of rockets on southern Israel the possibility of civilian casualties among Palestinians will rise. I believe we will see an increase Hamas activity if the peace talks will be on the right track.

I actually think that it's very possible to destroy the Hamas cell in the West Bank.
While they enjoy support in some specific locations in the West Bank, they do not hold much power over there and through the cooperation with the PLO it is possible to bring safety to the area.
With the West Bank's Hamas cell destroyed, they won't have many options to inflict terror in Israel, as they are not able to cross the Gaza border. (They try constantly nevertheless, most recently was yesterday (or two days ago if I'm wrong) )
 

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Agreed, but there are certian lines that could be crossed where Israel couldn't refrain from retaliating anymore.
Not so unrealistic scenarion - Hamas starts lunching salvos of rockets on Ashkelon and Sderot on daily basis distrupting life of civilians in that area.

That's true. Do they still have the capability to do that? If so, what's been stopping them these past few months?
 

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I have heard people say that Hamas are the legit ones as far as Palestinians are concerned. Are the talks to please the international community or to get peace with the Palestinians. If peace is wanted with the palestinians I cannot see how that is possible without engaging Hamas the elected representatives.

I believe Abu Mazen is the elected president and it is his legal athority to appoint a prime minister, why is he or the current PA goverment not legit to negotiate with Israel?
 

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I have heard people say that Hamas are the legit ones as far as Palestinians are concerned.

Those people you've heard are called "terror-supporters". They shouldn't be listened to.

alexa said:
Are the talks to please the international community or to get peace with the Palestinians. If peace is wanted with the palestinians I cannot see how that is possible without engaging Hamas the elected representatives.

The talks are to get peace, of course, and through the recognition of the international community that there is one legit solution to the conflict (the one reached by the PLO and Israel as a result of negotiations), peace will arrive shortly after.
 

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It suites you to pop out in a thread talking about a murder of 4 Israelies, one of them a pregnant woman, only when the idea or an Israeli retaliation rises.

Right now it seems that the Israeli goverment isn't going to do anything about it, and even if it will it is highly unlikely to see civilian casualties in IDF operations in the west bank nowerdays, If however Hamas will start launching salvos of rockets on southern Israel the possibility of civilian casualties among Palestinians will rise. I believe we will see an increase Hamas activity if the peace talks will be on the right track.

It made sense to question in a thread where people are rightly decrying civilians causalities whether some of those who so righteously do, have not a care in the world in inflicting far more massive civilian causalities themselves. It reeks of hypocrisy.
 

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That's true. Do they still have the capability to do that? If so, what's been stopping them these past few months?

Hamas works in a very precise routine.
It knows that when it fires rockets a retaliation would come soon after.
So instead it saves up its rockets until it has a large amount, and then uses it when diplomacy is bringing progress.
When it does use it, Israel retaliates, they achieve a derail in diplomacy, and then they go silent saying that they want a cease fire, and start rearming themselves again.
 

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Those people you've heard are called "terror-supporters". They shouldn't be listened to.
No, I think I have read Degreez stating this is the case. I am sure when he comes on he will clarify.


The talks are to get peace, of course, and through the recognition of the international community that there is one legit solution to the conflict (the one reached by the PLO and Israel as a result of negotiations), peace will arrive shortly after.

You cannot get peace without that peace being recognised by the people who are involved.
 

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It made sense to question in a thread where people are rightly decrying civilians causalities whether some of those who so righteously do, have not a care in the world in inflicting far more massive civilian causalities themselves. It reeks of hypocrisy.

No one in this thread "rightly decried civilian casualties".
Only in the parallel thread Korimyr the Rat did so.
 
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You cannot get peace without that peace being recognised by the people who are involved.

And nothing says that it wouldn't be recognized.
Even if it takes time, it would be recognized, and Hamas will either renounce violence or fall and the solution will be implemented.
 

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I have heard people say that Hamas are the legit ones as far as Palestinians are concerned. Are the talks to please the international community or to get peace with the Palestinians. If peace is wanted with the palestinians I cannot see how that is possible without engaging Hamas the elected representatives.

The trouble here, Alexa, is that Hamas are not seeking a peace solution, they are seeking a victory over Israel and an escalation of hostilities in the belief that one day their Arab neighbours will come to their rescue and Israel will be so isolated that they can do nothing to prevent it. Hamas do have a strong pull on the loyalties of many Palestinians. Fatah's government of the PA stands accused of many failings, many real, some fabricated but Hamas exploits those failings and blames all its own on Israel's aggression.

I think that the only way to undermine that divisive and opportunistic politics is for Israel and Fatah to begin delivering some peace dividends. Without any dividends, investors take their money elsewhere, whether or not that new investment produces anything worth having.
 

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No one in this thread "rightly decried civilian casualties".
Only in the parallel thread Korimyr the Rat did so.

Pretty horrible bad news on the eve of talks. This helps no one except those determined that the negotiations will fail before they've even started. Of course, we can't jump the gun and lay it at Hamas' door just yet, but it would make sense. They are as determined that Abbas fails in his peace mission as they are determined Netanyahu should fail. If the hard-liners succeed, everyone loses.

There were already quite a few terror organizations that were taking responsibility for what they describe "an heroic, glorious act", Hamas included.
The monsters need to be found and punished, the peace talks however will fortunately not be damaged by those barbaric terrorists since the government has no interest to avoid the peace talks, and since that's exactly what the terrorists would want.

And now I hear Palestinian children are celebrating this attack. ****ing repulsive.

Don't these two posts qualify as 'decrying civilian casualties'?
 

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The trouble here, Alexa, is that Hamas are not seeking a peace solution, they are seeking a victory over Israel and an escalation of hostilities in the belief that one day their Arab neighbours will come to their rescue and Israel will be so isolated that they can do nothing to prevent it. Hamas do have a strong pull on the loyalties of many Palestinians. Fatah's government of the PA stands accused of many failings, many real, some fabricated but Hamas exploits those failings and blames all its own on Israel's aggression.

i was reading a paper by the EU the other day. It was written before Cast Lead. They believed that Hamas must be involved and believed that by a series of moves it would be quite possible to get them to move into a situation which could eventually lead to peace. Not immediately agreed, but cease fire agreements. I cannot see how any peace is possible without talking to Hamas. I also hear that the Palestinians are less than keen on Abbas believing he has sold out to the US. I am quite amazed that people believe they can get peace without the agreement of the people involved.

What makes you think Hamas believes it's arab neighvours will come to it's aid. Hamas seems happy enough. The longer this goes on, the stronger it's hold is in Gaza. Talk to Hamas, open things up and you start to loosen that hold. Hamas as that paper suggested can almost certainly be brought to negotiations and compromise through sufficient carrots. I have to go out now but if I can find that paper later I will put it up.

A main concern I have is that this situation is going to leave the people of Gaza cut off from the West Bank and everyone else until the world speak out. The situation regarding Palestine Israel I think is coming to the end of it's time. Israel will soon have all it wants and the Palestinians will be left with virtually nothing. Also possibly have a look at some of Jonathan Crookes work. He has worked considerably in the ME and was involved in NI I think and has a fair idea of how to deal with 'terrorists' in order to eventually find resolution.

I think that the only way to undermine that divisive and opportunistic politics is for Israel and Fatah to begin delivering some peace dividends. Without any dividends, investors take their money elsewhere, whether or not that new investment produces anything worth having.

Well they would I think have to be pretty big peace dividends from Israel in order to satisfy people but what we are hearing about is Israel keeping East Jerusalem, she is presently deporting from there people who have lived their for generations, starting again building in the rest of the West Bank - not what someone does if they are thinking of getting the removal men in and Abbas from what I hear has little cred with the Palestinians. I cannot see them accepting the crumbs I think will be offered and Gaza left out in the cold.

I believe these peace talks are a sham and just lip service to this International Community so that Israel can say, we tried and no doubt there will be some more terrorist attacks and possibly that will finish the situation.

I have no hopes for this situation. Now, I must go out. :) I will pm you that paper if I find it.
 
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