14-Year-Old Refuses To Remove NRA T-Shirt, Faces 1 Year In Jail

[Black Dog]

Between the kid, the school, and the cop all unwilling to give an inch is how you end up with a stupid situation like this, I'm sure everyone is thinking, or at least I hope they are thinking, this situation could have ended better. Now the school and the police look like dolts and the kid and his parents are now facing hopefully not too painful of a legal process and other problems

/thread

 

[Gipper]

Between the kid, the school, and the cop all unwilling to give an inch is how you end up with a stupid situation like this, I'm sure everyone is thinking, or at least I hope they are thinking, this situation could have ended better. Now the school and the police look like dolts and the kid and his parents are now facing hopefully not too painful of a legal process and other problems

The kid has nothing but benefit from this though. He becomes a crusader for the First Amendment and all the glory while that police department, school, and town get dragged through the Orwellian ringer by the press and the court of public opinion.

Ideally, I'd like to see the ACLU crawl up every ass involved in the kid's persecution and essentially make all their lives hell on Earth.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

The kid over reacted.
The school over reacted.
The cop over reacted.

Everyone just needed to calm down, too bad no one did.

No, the kid acted like a kid, and the rest failed to act like adults.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Oh, please. That, apparently, is the difference between Mars and Venus. This is a 14-year-old. At school. Being told by a teacher to do something he didn't think was fair. Kids need to get over this "It's not fair" mentality and respect authority. Do I think the school over-reacted? Yes. Do I think the cops over-reacted? Yes. Do I think the kid was wrong? Yes. How about we see how this plays out before we claim the USA is going to hell in a handbasket? PS: Kids in school don't have First Amendment rights anywhere except in the playground. And, even there, it's not absolute.

In fact, kids in school do have certain 1st Amendment rights that have been upheld by federal courts. T-shirts, jewelry, etc, cannot be banned unless it "is vulgar or it substantially disrupts the educations process".* That includes NRA shirts, religious jewelry like a cross on a necklace, and many other things that are nothing more than a form of free speech.

* https://acluva.org/1635/appeals-cou...ntitled-to-free-speech-protections-in-school/


Given this is a 14-year-old, I can't blame him for what he did. The correct course of action wouldn't have been to reverse the shirt but to demand a meeting with the principle, a higher authority than the teacher, but I'm sure he didn't think of that.

 

[Wiseone]

The kid has nothing but benefit from this though. He becomes a crusader for the First Amendment and all the glory while that police department, school, and town get dragged through the Orwellian ringer by the press and the court of public opinion.

Ideally, I'd like to see the ACLU crawl up every ass involved in the kid's persecution and essentially make all their lives hell on Earth.

Ya the glory of a stupid legal fight, the following arguments at home, who knows if this kid's parents have the time or the money required to go through a legal fight. All for the "glory" of a story that lasts a day or two before its forgotten by everyone else except those involved.

Personally I'd like to not see the kid's juvenile record stained, the cop's career ended, or the school forced to pay money that could otherwise go to education, over a T-shirt. For God's sake there's an easier way to figure this out without thats better for everyone.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Ya the glory of a stupid legal fight, the following arguments at home, who knows if this kid's parents have the time or the money required to go through a legal fight. All for the "glory" of a story that lasts a day or two before its forgotten by everyone else except those involved.

Personally I'd like to not see the kid's juvenile record stained, the cop's career ended, or the school forced to pay money that could otherwise go to education, over a T-shirt. For God's sake there's an easier way to figure this out without thats better for everyone.

So you want to see a cop who has now proven his proclivity for abusing the authority that goes with his position, continue to hold that position and be able to abuse his authority?

 

[Gipper]

Ya the glory of a stupid legal fight, the following arguments at home, who knows if this kid's parents have the time or the money required to go through a legal fight. All for the "glory" of a story that lasts a day or two before its forgotten by everyone else except those involved.

The time thing I cannot attest to, but is there ANY doubt that any Constitutional lawyer willing to make a name for himself wouldn't BEG to work for them pro-bono? Not only would they not pay one red cent throughout the entire process at any level, but they stand to grab a little green for their troubles with some book deal or a movie of the week.

Personally I'd like to not see the kid's juvenile record stained, the cop's career ended, or the school forced to pay money that could otherwise go to education, over a T-shirt. For God's sake there's an easier way to figure this out without thats better for everyone.

I don't want the kid's record blemished. I do, however, want that man to never carry a shield again. I want the school to shell out enough that they'll think twice about EVER doing something like this again. I also want them to be made an example of in the circle of conformist fascism I refer to as today's educational system.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

While some will insist that overcriminalization is a term invented by the Heritage Foundation in their fight against government regulation, as far as I'm concerned this is an excellent example of what the term really means.

The adults in this situation failed to be adults, the kid in this situation acted like a hormonal teenager, and the end result is that the lack of judgement on the part of the adults netted this kid a criminal record that will follow him everywhere. Nobody got hurt, nobody needed to be arrested, but the adults couldn't control the hormonal teenager without slapping cuffs on him, so they did so without consideration to what this would do to the rest of his life.

Law enforcement shouldn't be about arresting everybody you can legally arrest. Education shouldn't be about using your authority to bludgeon stupid children into submission. The justice system shouldn't be about disciplining harmless foolishness.

 

[Gipper]

While some will insist that overcriminalization is a term invented by the Heritage Foundation in their fight against government regulation, as far as I'm concerned this is an excellent example of what the term really means.

The adults in this situation failed to be adults, the kid in this situation acted like a hormonal teenager, and the end result is that the lack of judgement on the part of the adults netted this kid a criminal record that will follow him everywhere. Nobody got hurt, nobody needed to be arrested, but the adults couldn't control the hormonal teenager without slapping cuffs on him, so they did so without consideration to what this would do to the rest of his life.

Law enforcement shouldn't be about arresting everybody you can legally arrest. Education shouldn't be about using your authority to bludgeon stupid children into submission. The justice system shouldn't be about disciplining harmless foolishness.

Power corrupts. I see it often.

I won't say more about the subject.

 

[MoSurveyor]

I agree with you to a point about the dress code. I don't agree that the place to argue it is in the high school cafeteria.

The teacher shouldn't have confronted him in the school cafeteria. Did the teacher honestly expect the kid to take off his shirt in front of everyone just to turn it inside out? Sorry, at the very least the teacher should have found a semi-private place to reprimand the kid and considering the time of day (not being first thing in the morning) should have thought twice about what he was doing. Obviously several of the kids teachers had let it pass - maybe they knew something this teacher in the cafeteria was missing? Generally I agree that you should follow authority but this was over-the-top enough that I have to side with the kid. Not only was the teacher wrong about the dress code, he was wrong about the place of confrontation, too.

 

[Wiseone]

So you want to see a cop who has now proven his proclivity for abusing the authority that goes with his position, continue to hold that position and be able to abuse his authority?

I don't think its worth ending his career over no, the guy made a mistake that's it. He can get some re-training or a reprimand or something.

The time thing I cannot attest to, but is there ANY doubt that any Constitutional lawyer willing to make a name for himself wouldn't BEG to work for them pro-bono? Not only would they not pay one red cent throughout the entire process at any level, but they stand to grab a little green for their troubles with some book deal or a movie of the week.

I don't want the kid's record blemished. I do, however, want that man to never carry a shield again. I want the school to shell out enough that they'll think twice about EVER doing something like this again. I also want them to be made an example of in the circle of conformist fascism I refer to as today's educational system.

You honestly think someone would make a movie out of this? You're crazy.
And as I said above, there are other courses of action besides ending someone's career. I don't suppose you've never made a mistake at whatever job you work at? I'm not saying what he did was right, its clearly not, but the consequence doesn't need to be so extreme.

And do you really want the school, and all the other students and this kid to suffer from a poorer education because of this? How does that solve any problem? Plus you want the taxpayer to have to pay for a trial in this situation?

This is the exact same kind of over-reaction that lead to this problem in the first place.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

So you want to see a cop who has now proven his proclivity for abusing the authority that goes with his position, continue to hold that position and be able to abuse his authority?

I don't think its worth ending his career over no, the guy made a mistake that's it. He can get some re-training or a reprimand or something.

I have to solidly disagree. This was a serious, and inexcusable abuse of his authority. Under no circumstances do I believe it to be acceptable for any public servant to engage in such an abuse. At the very least, he needs to be fired, and barred forevermore from holding any position as a public servant. Better yet, he needs to be charged with appropriate crimes relating to kidnapping, assault, and violation of the kid's civil rights, and he should spend a long time in prison.

Public servants who engage in these sorts of abuses need to be punished, not only for themselves, but as an example to show other public servants what will happen to them if they step that far out of line.

 

[Gipper]

I don't think its worth ending his career over no, the guy made a mistake that's it. He can get some re-training or a reprimand or something.

A "mistake" is hitting an innocent bystander in a shootout with a perp. A "mistake" is a high-speed chase where you accidentally spiral out of control when hitting a slick spot on the highway.

This was no mistake. You don't arrest someone on accident. This move was specific, intentional, and calculated. Worst yet, it was political. Police officers are supposed to lead by example, not make examples of others.

I stand by my notion that he should never carry a badge in his lifetime.

You honestly think someone would make a movie out of this? You're crazy.

Probably not, but stranger crap has happened.

And as I said above, there are other courses of action besides ending someone's career. I don't suppose you've never made a mistake at whatever job you work at? I'm not saying what he did was right, its clearly not, but the consequence doesn't need to be so extreme.

This isn't an "oops, muh bad" situation. Okay, I'm in charge of a major corporation's books. Let's say one day I come up with a premeditated method to embezzle 5 million dollars from the coffers. Accounting finds out and I get caught and, of course, immediately fired and prosecuted. When I get out, should the next corporation hire me instantly because of my qualifications?

And do you really want the school, and all the other students and this kid to suffer from a poorer education because of this?

Heh. Yeah, this would affect their educations. This would turn a pristine school to the next inner-city joke.

How does that solve any problem? Plus you want the taxpayer to have to pay for a trial in this situation?

You and I both know that this would never make it to trial.

This is the exact same kind of over-reaction that lead to this problem in the first place.

Over-reactions are logical results of other over-reactions.

 

[Wiseone]

I think some people will take any excuse to foam at the mouth.

 

[Monserrat]

14-Year-Old Refuses To Remove NRA T-Shirt, Faces 1 Year In Jail // Mr. Conservative

I'm pretty sure that this was discussed earlier but one would have reasonably thought it would have all blown over by now. Apparently that's not the case.

This all started in April and ABC has a decent rundown of the events at that point -
West Virginia Teen Arrested After Wearing NRA T-Shirt to School - ABC News

Notice that in the story the police chief says that Jared almost started a riot but if you read the story it seems that the teacher was the one causing a scene.

I think people are overreacting on all sides of the board here.

1. Kids are not allowed to wear whatever the hell they want to school
2. Kids are not allowed to say whatever the hell they want in school

This isn't a free speech/expression issue, the school oversees multiple young people and they need rules to keep order.

Next there's not too many details on what happened to get to the 'almost caused a riot' part so without knowing everything I can't say whether or not the police officer was wrong in taking away the 14 year old, if that officer thought that the kid was creating a violent environment then why shouldn't he remove the threat? Based on the article however it didn't seem like that was happening but like I said, more information is needed before anyone should rush to judgment.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I think people are overreacting on all sides of the board here.

1. Kids are not allowed to wear whatever the hell they want to school
2. Kids are not allowed to say whatever the hell they want in school

This isn't a free speech/expression issue, the school oversees multiple young people and they need rules to keep order.

Next there's not too many details on what happened to get to the 'almost caused a riot' part so without knowing everything I can't say whether or not the police officer was wrong in taking away the 14 year old, if that officer thought that the kid was creating a violent environment then why shouldn't he remove the threat? Based on the article however it didn't seem like that was happening but like I said, more information is needed before anyone should rush to judgment.

We've been over this aspect in this case.

His T-Shirt was said not to have violated any school rules.

Witnesses have the teacher as escalating this.

 

[MoSurveyor]

A "mistake" is hitting an innocent bystander in a shootout with a perp. A "mistake" is a high-speed chase where you accidentally spiral out of control when hitting a slick spot on the highway.

This was no mistake. You don't arrest someone on accident. This move was specific, intentional, and calculated. Worst yet, it was political. Police officers are supposed to lead by example, not make examples of others.

I stand by my notion that he should never carry a badge in his lifetime.

I think that's jumping the gun since we don't know what the office witnessed - and that's all he can go by in making a decision. It's quite possible that the teacher calmed down when the police arrived but the kid didn't (nor would I expect him to). If that was the case, then the cop acted correctly although I do believe he should have made some allowance for the kids age and simply taken him to the office to let the school decide what to do with him. I guess it all depends on the school and the reaction the other kids had to the situation.

In any event, without knowing what actually happened after the cop arrived we have no basis on which to condemn him.

 

[Henrin]

LOL, I wouldn't describe myself as a fan of uniforms of any type - but I wore a school uniform for the last twelve years of my life, and I don't think it repressed my individuality in any way.

That might be true, but one of the purposes of a uniform is to squash individuality by making everyone dress the same to instill conformity. Children should be taught to express themselves, to think for themselves, and to try not be held back by anything. We should not tell children exactly how to dress, but allow them the freedom to make these decision on their own with as little guidance as possible.

In fact, anyone who needs to dress bizzarely to show his individuality, has very little of that to express. There is a time and place for everything, and school is not the most appropriate place for social statements.

Why is it not? Why do we as a society say that this place or that place is not a place to dress how we want? Why do we require dress codes for certain environments? What would happen if we decided to drop the idea in its entirely? Would anything of value be lost?

Unless you are a boarder, like me, there is loads of time after school to be as Goth, Emo, or whacky as you wish.

Of course there is, but there is even more time at school.

I'm so very thankful I grew up before this uniform stuff became the norm in schools.

 

[Gipper]

I think that's jumping the gun since we don't know what the office witnessed - and that's all he can go by in making a decision. It's quite possible that the teacher calmed down when the police arrived but the kid didn't (nor would I expect him to). If that was the case, then the cop acted correctly although I do believe he should have made some allowance for the kids age and simply taken him to the office to let the school decide what to do with him. I guess it all depends on the school and the reaction the other kids had to the situation.

In any event, without knowing what actually happened after the cop arrived we have no basis on which to condemn him.

Even the most conservative summations of the incident indicate, to me, that the cop wildly overstepped his boundaries.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Even the most conservative summations of the incident indicate, to me, that the cop wildly overstepped his boundaries.

Like I said, we don't know at what point the officer entered the picture - and all they can go on is what they actually witness, not what other people are saying about what happened. It's the job of someone further up the food chain to take make a decision based on witness statements.


If it were your ass on the line would you really want a cop listening to what everyone was telling him happened? Or would you want him to ignore all that and only go on what he, himself, saw and heard? - And keep in mind, the crown may not be on your side.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Like I said, we don't know at what point the officer entered the picture - and all they can go on is what they actually witness, not what other people are saying about what happened. That's for someone further up the food chain to decide.

Well, soon after this occurred, there were witnesses that spoke up. It seems obvious to me that this was authoritarianism run wild. They over stepped their bounds. The adults should cave calmed the situation, not escalate it.

 

[Gipper]

Like I said, we don't know at what point the officer entered the picture - and all they can go on is what they actually witness, not what other people are saying about what happened. It's the job of someone further up the food chain to take make a decision based on witness statements.


If it were your ass on the line would you really want a cop listening to what everyone was telling him happened? Or would you want him to ignore all that and only go on what he, himself, saw and heard? - And keep in mind, the crown may not be on your side.


I agree completely that the teacher was in the wrong but there's not enough information to know what the cop saw and heard.

Okay, can you name me ONE - singular - eyewitness account out of all there (even if there are multiples that describe the exact opposite) that would warrant anything more than an escort off the premises?

Seriously. One. Just any one account that you think it and it alone justifies the action taken.

One.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Well, soon after this occurred, there were witnesses that spoke up. It seems obvious to me that this was authoritarianism run wild. They over stepped their bounds. The adults should cave calmed the situation, not escalate it.

The cop did calm the situation, He removed what he saw was the focus of the disturbance.

The police can't take what people tell them as factual and make decisions on that. If that happened then every stranger in every bar in the nation would be the one going to jail for assault even if it was the local gang leader that started the fight. You have to go by what you, personally, see and hear - and we don't know at what point he entered the situation.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Okay, can you name me ONE - singular - eyewitness account out of all there (even if there are multiples that describe the exact opposite) that would warrant anything more than an escort off the premises?

Seriously. One. Just any one account that you think it and it alone justifies the action taken.

One.

You're acting like a cop can be the judge and jury. What the hell are you thinking??? That's not their job. I don't want that to be their job and neither should you!

Their job is to restore order and enforce the law. If all he saw was the kid - and not the teacher - being mad and loud (which wouldn't surprise me, nor, again, do I blame the kid for that) then that's all he can act on.

 

[Gipper]

You're acting like a cop can be the judge and jury. What the hell are you thinking??? That's not their job. I don't want that to be their job and neither should you!

Their job is to restore order and enforce the law. If all he saw was the kid - and not the teacher - being mad and loud (which wouldn't surprise me, nor, again, do I blame the kid for that) then that's all he can act on.

As I said - let's pretend that it was teachers being cool, calm, collected, and non-judgmental/emotional. Let's just say.

Now let's say that the kid was being belligerent, loud, and mouthy - just an overall douche. Non-violent, but a royal douche.

These are both extremes and, of course, contrary to multiple eyewitnesses. That aside, would you slap cuffs on this kid, or would you say, "Okay son, time to be an adult about this and leave before things get much worse for you".

Serve and protect - not judge and abuse.