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14-Year-Old Refuses To Remove NRA T-Shirt, Faces 1 Year In Jail

MaggieD said:
Wow, they're apparently throwing the book at this kid. My guess is that it'll get pled to a misdemeanor and he'll get community service. I hope that's what happens, anyway.
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Why should a kid be charged with any crime at all, for an act that consists of an entirely legitimate and harmless exercise of his First Amendment rights?

To charge him with any crime is a severe abuse of authority. Every public servant who has any willing part in this needs to be fired, at the very least, if not charged himself with a crime for such an abuse.

There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for any public servant to engage in this sort of abuse, and absolutely no reason at all why any member of public should even think of tolerating it.

MaggieD said:
Kids can be very idealistic in today's connected world. He's not a bad kid...an honor roll student...wants a career in the military. Now here's my thought -- this kid, most especially if he's planning on going into the military, is going to have to learn to respect authority whether or not he agrees with it.

I sincerely hope his dad is taking this opportunity to teach him that. If his dad is determined to send a message to his son that his son did nothing wrong...was just sticking up for his rights...that'd be a damned shame.
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Better to teach the kid that he should surrender his most essential rights any time one of his public servants demands that he do so?

It is attitudes such as yours that are largely responsible for ruining this once-great nation.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Sure, the kid should have found better ways to express displeasure with a very stupid rule and probably did take it too far. However there is nothing I've seen in this story that equals felony or a year in jail. The teacher was the aggressor, and the policy is the very definition of insanely stupid.

EDIT - One more thing upon re reading this, the officer probably should be reprimanded and the charges dropped as well. He was arrested on an obstruction charge because he wouldn't stop talking, he had every right to explain himself during the situation.
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The officer, should be charged with kidnapping and assault. The kid did not commit any crime, and did not give anyone any reasonable cause to suspect that he had committed a crime or intended to do so; therefore, there was no legitimate authority to arrest him. Any attempt to detain him, therefore, was kidnapping, and if he was touched in any way without his consent in the course of this “arrest” then that is assault and battery. The officer absolutely should face criminal charges for this.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Seems to me the only instigators are the administrators and teachers. It's about time to start firing these idiots for this kind of stuff.
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Did you say fire, or fire at? :mrgreen:
 
MaggieD said:
Wow, they're apparently throwing the book at this kid. My guess is that it'll get pled to a misdemeanor and he'll get community service. I hope that's what happens, anyway.

Kids can be very idealistic in today's connected world. He's not a bad kid...an honor roll student...wants a career in the military. Now here's my thought -- this kid, most especially if he's planning on going into the military, is going to have to learn to respect authority whether or not he agrees with it.

I sincerely hope his dad is taking this opportunity to teach him that. If his dad is determined to send a message to his son that his son did nothing wrong...was just sticking up for his rights...that'd be a damned shame. The boy will take whatever lead his dad presents. Maybe that's already what's going on here and that's why the authorities are throwing the book at him.

Poor kid.
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I think what you just said, sadly, sadly, summarizes what's wrong with our culture. That there is anything remotely desirable in expecting people to disregard what they believe to be right or wrong in favor of submitting to authority. There are some situations where is would be better if someone did, but generally we are only speaking of sociopaths. If this kid isn't a sociopath, then I don't think he should be interested in any career that is going to ask him to do something as extreme as kill other people without using his own moral judgements.
 
Remember when you could beat the hell out of someone and get a detention? Yeah, me too.
Remember when you could wear a shirt of a woman with her tits hanging out and even if you refuse to turn it inside out the worst that could happen is a detention and being sent home? Yeah, me too.

Btw, I did both of those. The first I did many times over growing up and the second occurred in eighth grade.

The last fight I got in is when I was ninth grade and I never broke dress code again. Yeah, kids should totally be sent to jail for this stuff. :roll:

If the punishment for a dress code violation is a year then exactly how long is fighting? Five? WTF is wrong with people these days?
 
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MaggieD said:
Wow, they're apparently throwing the book at this kid. My guess is that it'll get pled to a misdemeanor and he'll get community service. I hope that's what happens, anyway.

Kids can be very idealistic in today's connected world. He's not a bad kid...an honor roll student...wants a career in the military. Now here's my thought -- this kid, most especially if he's planning on going into the military, is going to have to learn to respect authority whether or not he agrees with it.

I sincerely hope his dad is taking this opportunity to teach him that. If his dad is determined to send a message to his son that his son did nothing wrong...was just sticking up for his rights...that'd be a damned shame. The boy will take whatever lead his dad presents. Maybe that's already what's going on here and that's why the authorities are throwing the book at him.

Poor kid.
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What did the kid do wrong? So he wore a shirt to school that hurt peoples feelings. Who cares?
So he wouldn't shut up when "what the hell are you even doing here" cop is talking Who cares?

Who is the dumbass that put this kind of punishment for either one of these these events? Who is the dim bulb in a dark hallway that even put jail as a punishment for obstructing justice in this fashion? Why is it not just a fine or community service? Why was the cop even there? Do cops need to be involved for every fight and every little rule that is broken at a school? Is there any sort of reason the cop was even there and involved that actually makes sense? There has to be more important things the cop could be doing than harassing someone for breaking a stupid dress code rule. I get the strong feeling that if I was that kids age I would obstructed justice in the exact same fashion he did for the simple reason that the cop had no goddamn reason to be there.
 
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Texmex said:
Did you say fire, or fire at? :mrgreen:
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Well, part of me wants to keep it civil and just fire them. Of course, under natural law those idiots should be lined against a wall and given a severe beating....................but we are a civil society. :lol:
 
Bob Blaylock said:
The officer, should be charged with kidnapping and assault. The kid did not commit any crime, and did not give anyone any reasonable cause to suspect that he had committed a crime or intended to do so; therefore, there was no legitimate authority to arrest him. Any attempt to detain him, therefore, was kidnapping, and if he was touched in any way without his consent in the course of this “arrest” then that is assault and battery. The officer absolutely should face criminal charges for this.
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Unfortunately kidnapping and assault would be unlikely against the officer, and the school will be legally protected because they can claim they were simply enforcing school codes. The officer should be charged with making an unlawful arrest according to protocol, but really any other citizen would have been charged exactly with what you suggested for doing that, plus the teacher could be up for those charges as well, and the issuers of the policy could be charged with accessory without those legal protections. As well, the way the teacher treated that kid she should be charged with harassment, but of course we know that now there are more legal protections for authoritarian types than at any time in U.S. history.
 
Henrin said:
What did the kid do wrong? So he wore a shirt to school that hurt peoples feelings. Who cares?
So he wouldn't shut up when "what the hell are you even doing here" cop is talking Who cares?

Who is the dumbass that put this kind of punishment for either one of these these events? Who is the dim bulb in a dark hallway that even put jail as a punishment for obstructing justice in this fashion? Why is it not just a fine or community service? Why was the cop even there? Do cops need to be involved for every fight and every little rule that is broken at a school? Is there any sort of reason the cop was even there and involved that actually makes sense? There has to be more important things the cop could be doing than harassing someone for breaking a stupid dress code rule. I get the strong feeling that if I was that kids age I would obstructed justice in the exact same fashion he did for the simple reason that the cop had no goddamn reason to be there.
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That was my thought too, what possible reason would the officer need to be at the school. The teacher didn't like being "sassed? So what if that was the case, too ****ing bad and administrators can handle it. Was the kid refusing to leave school grounds for some reason after being suspended and told to leave? Okay, that would be a tresspassing situation but it isn't mentioned in the story.
 
APACHERAT said:
They can't be fired ! The teachers unions will not allow it.
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They have to really mess up, causing a lawsuit to the school system or being involved with an unlawful arrest could be a decent trigger for their termination. At the point that money gets involved even the unions can't help them, honestly, I think it's about time for parents to start putting these administrator and teacher feet to the fire when they cross certain lines.
 
LaMidRighter said:
That's my biggest issue, the arrest, if the kid was being pushed to any kind of aggression he didn't instigate it, and he has a right to be a smartass, however the school does have the right to take administrative actions against insubordination. My next concern is the whole "no gun references whatsoever" zero tolerance policies in schools, forget the second amendment for a second, this at the very least is a first amendment issue, the kids aren't engaged in anything offensive or obscene which pretty much makes administration and their policies the aggressors in my opinion. I get that schools don't want guns on campus, but even referencing being punished to the point that if kids played "soldiers" on the playground or brought a toy soldier they'll suffer punishment is draconian and irresponsibly stupid. My reasoning behind calling for the firing of the administration is incompetence.
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It is 100% a 1st Amendment case and if the NRA won't take up the fight I'd bet the ACLU would. There is nothing wrong with wearing an NRA, religious, or any other kind of T-shirt, jewelry, tattoo, etc. as long as it doesn't step into areas of vulgarity or "substantially disrupts the education process" - according to one Fed court of appeals. I take that to mean T-shirts showing teachers at the end of a rope can probably be outlawed by the school. Otherwise, if they don't want students wearing that kind of thing they need to require uniforms - and that still doesn't stop displays of jewelry, like a cross on a necklace or an NRA pin.

As for charging him with, essentially, disturbing the peace, we'll see. That's pretty hard to make stick when someone else approaches you instead of vice versa.
 
MoSurveyor said:
It is 100% a 1st Amendment case and if the NRA won't take up the fight I'd bet the ACLU would. There is nothing wrong with wearing an NRA, religious, or any other kind of T-shirt, jewelry, tattoo, etc. as long as it doesn't step into areas of vulgarity or "substantially disrupts the education process" - according to one Fed court of appeals. I take that to mean T-shirts showing teachers at the end of a rope can probably be outlawed by the school. Otherwise, if they don't want students wearing that kind of thing they need to require uniforms - and that still doesn't stop displays of jewelry, like a cross on a necklace or an NRA pin.

As for charging him with, essentially, disturbing the peace, we'll see. That's pretty hard to make stick when someone else approaches you instead of vice versa.
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Seems we are in agreement here. My thing about schools is that they can control certain things, like profanity, obscenity, etc. but for things that do not cross lines the schools have two choices 1) Accept the agreed to boundary lines of blatantly offensive or as you said 2) issue a uniform only policy. That someone "may" go out of their way to take offense to something is always going to be irrelevant, the school system isn't about being thought police or political correctness education, it is about teaching subject matter that is universally beneficial like english, math, science, etc.
 
LaMidRighter said:
They have to really mess up, causing a lawsuit to the school system or being involved with an unlawful arrest could be a decent trigger for their termination. At the point that money gets involved even the unions can't help them, honestly, I think it's about time for parents to start putting these administrator and teacher feet to the fire when they cross certain lines.
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I would agree but the teachers unions will fight you every step of the way.

The American Federation of Teachers has put the NRA on the top of their enemies list.
 
APACHERAT said:
I would agree but the teachers unions will fight you every step of the way.

The American Federation of Teachers has put the NRA on the top of their enemies list.
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The unions only have as much power as they have a legal avenue to exploit, the minute you have a teacher breaking a law they are powerless. As far as their war on the NRA, while I think that is the worst of the pro second groups it's about time to show them what pushback looks like, make them accountable for every law they break, civil right they encroach upon, and every misstep they take and then show them what real oh **** moments are comprised of. If we start to hold them accountable, they won't have enough money to defend every violation of their membership.
 
LaMidRighter said:
So just let the kid get railroaded for expressing an opinion right? Say it with me now "you will comply".
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Everyone is over reacting, for a T-shirt to become this big of a problem then obviously cooler heads aren't prevailing.
 
Wiseone said:
Everyone is over reacting, for a T-shirt to become this big of a problem then obviously cooler heads aren't prevailing.
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Which is the point of this thread, a T-shirt and an overreaction have led to a nightmare for an innocent kid. The T-shirt in question is free speach, the schools are suppressing anything "gun like" which is the very definition of incompetence.
 
The liberal authoritarians will bully liberty seeking people every chance they get.
 
Much as I hate regimentation, school uniforms circumnavigate these, amongst other, problems. Dress codes can go part of the way but have to enumerate every possible objectionable exception (an impossibility) to work. My school had a relatively simple uniform - blazer, long trousers, black shoes (properly polished), collar and tie. They all came from the same designated supplier. Nobody wore more expensive or more fashionable gear than anyone else, so there were no coolness competitions as far as dress is concerned. And one of the other by-products of being in uniform when outside school grounds, is that you had to watch your behaviour because you could be identified. I remember being reported to the head because a bunch of schoolmates and I were kicking a can around in a mock football game on a station platform (allegedly thereby making a nuisance of ourselves).

As for the incident described, in the absence of a school uniform, I see no problem with the T-shirt that kid wore. The NRA are just a support organisation for the US arms manufacturers, and the gun culture is already alive and well in US society, so what harm was done by the kid expressing his opinion? No one was required by law or school regulation to agree with him. Freedom of expression, and all that.

The teacher concerned was either not very bright, or hooked on authoritarianism. At my school, he would have been asked to stay back a few minutes at the end of class, and required to correct any variance from the standard uniform. To call the police over so minor a matter, indicates that there is no authority structure whatsoever in that school, and that the students have no appreciation of such structures. The fault lies with the school, and to a lesser degree with the police officers concerned. Storm in a teacup. :mrgreen:
 
Leo said:
Much as I hate regimentation, school uniforms circumnavigate these, amongst other, problems. Dress codes can go part of the way but have to enumerate every possible objectionable exception (an impossibility) to work. My school had a relatively simple uniform - blazer, long trousers, black shoes (properly polished), collar and tie. They all came from the same designated supplier. Nobody wore more expensive or more fashionable gear than anyone else, so there were no coolness competitions as far as dress is concerned. And one of the other by-products of being in uniform when outside school grounds, is that you had to watch your behaviour because you could be identified. I remember being reported to the head because a bunch of schoolmates and I were kicking a can around in a mock football game on a station platform (allegedly thereby making a nuisance of ourselves).
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I'm not a fan of school uniforms, kids will grow up and have plenty of time to get jobs that require a company structured dress code later in life. School without dress codes IMO allow kids to express themselves(within reason of course) and it's part of the exploratory process of youth, finding themselves if you will.

As for the incident described, in the absence of a school uniform, I see no problem with the T-shirt that kid wore. The NRA are just a support organisation for the US arms manufacturers, and the gun culture is already alive and well in US society, so what harm was done by the kid expressing his opinion? No one was required by law or school regulation to agree with him. Freedom of expression, and all that.

The teacher concerned was either not very bright, or hooked on authoritarianism. At my school, he would have been asked to stay back a few minutes at the end of class, and required to correct any variance from the standard uniform. To call the police over so minor a matter, indicates that there is no authority structure whatsoever in that school, and that the students have no appreciation of such structures. The fault lies with the school, and to a lesser degree with the police officers concerned. Storm in a teacup. :mrgreen:
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Agree with everything here, good take on how many feel about this.
 
LaMidRighter said:
I'm not a fan of school uniforms, kids will grow up and have plenty of time to get jobs that require a company structured dress code later in life. School without dress codes IMO allow kids to express themselves(within reason of course) and it's part of the exploratory process of youth, finding themselves if you will.

Agree with everything here, good take on how many feel about this.
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LOL, I wouldn't describe myself as a fan of uniforms of any type - but I wore a school uniform for the last twelve years of my life, and I don't think it repressed my individuality in any way. In fact, anyone who needs to dress bizzarely to show his individuality, has very little of that to express. There is a time and place for everything, and school is not the most appropriate place for social statements. Unless you are a boarder, like me, there is loads of time after school to be as Goth, Emo, or whacky as you wish.

But I think most sensible people will agree that the situation we are discussing has been blown out of proportion, and that the fault lies mostly with the authorities concerned. :)
 
MaggieD said:
Wow, they're apparently throwing the book at this kid. My guess is that it'll get pled to a misdemeanor and he'll get community service. I hope that's what happens, anyway.

Kids can be very idealistic in today's connected world. He's not a bad kid...an honor roll student...wants a career in the military. Now here's my thought -- this kid, most especially if he's planning on going into the military, is going to have to learn to respect authority whether or not he agrees with it.

I sincerely hope his dad is taking this opportunity to teach him that. If his dad is determined to send a message to his son that his son did nothing wrong...was just sticking up for his rights...that'd be a damned shame. The boy will take whatever lead his dad presents. Maybe that's already what's going on here and that's why the authorities are throwing the book at him.

Poor kid.
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Those joining the military do so voluntarily knowing they will be giving up some individualism and agreeing to follow all orders given unless they are of a criminal nature.

Authority is to be respected only so long as it has earned and is due that respect. In situations like this, it is absolutely appropriate to challenge authority.

If we are within our rights, we do not have to suffer the jackbooted imposition of someone elses will over our own...
reference: American Revolution
 
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