132 Dems vote against bill cracking down on fentanyl, cite ‘inequities’ in criminal justice system

[Lovebug]

solve it? no, we have one political party working hard to keep everyone on drugs and the southern border open drug flow so its not easy for sure

Around here they just cook up some meth.

 

[Lovebug]

funny how Democrats want to legalize all these drugs that get people addicted isn't it ?



those who do - my daughter is one of the many who do not



don't complain about addictions if you're supporting legalizing and providing access to the drugs

Liquor stores are open daily.

 

[JasperL]

funny how Democrats want to legalize all these drugs that get people addicted isn't it ?

Why is it funny? And what drugs do "Democrats" want to legalize other than pot?

those who do - my daughter is one of the many who do not

I'm sorry for that, but my guess is she would like to be clean but can't imagine a good life clean. I know the feeling. But the point is that lots of addicts do in fact want to be rid of their addictions.

don't complain about addictions if you're supporting legalizing and providing access to the drugs

OK, so you're not interested in having an honest conversation. I should have known better. I'll just end that the difference between us is I look at the War on Drugs and see a decades long record of massive failure. So when something fails for decades, maybe trying to do MORE of what failed is the wrong path. Maybe we should try something that hasn't failed miserably for decades, versus doing the same thing and expecting different results THIS time.

And the data I've seen on legalization efforts simply doesn't show that doing so increases harm, to kids, or the community. Just the opposite in fact.

 

[JasperL]

Liquor stores are open daily.

Yep, and NIH estimates about 140,000 Americans per year die of diseases caused by alcohol. So should we ban alcohol, throw the liquor store owners in jail for a decade for selling a beer? I know fentanyl is different but the core problem is opiate addiction, and fentanyl is a cheap alternative to oxy or heroin or similar, so that's what addicts buy to deal with their addiction because fentanyl is cheap and available, and easy to import because it is so concentrated.

In other words, demand is the core problem, and this bill goes after supply in what in fact is a dumb way IMO.

Seems like it might be better to try to solve the demand problem, and if that's not possible, supply demand with 'safe' or safer products in a controlled manner, versus forcing addicts to turn sociopathic criminals to get the supply they need. History has shown us there's a never ending supply of those sociopaths. Throw one in jail and there's another taking his place before the ringing of the prison door closing stops.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Why is it funny? And what drugs do "Democrats" want to legalize other than pot?

one example https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/15/...minalization-marijuana-drug-policy-reform-act

but its just one, Democrats are known for wanting legalization

I'm sorry for that, but my guess is she would like to be clean but can't imagine a good life clean. I know the feeling. But the point is that lots of addicts do in fact want to be rid of their addictions.

no, she loves her drugs .... and she's lost so much cognitive I told her all the time NEVER do drugs, they control you ... she thought she was smarter than that or didn't care .... her choices and her actions and the consequences of them are hers too

which is why I will NEVER support legalizing recreational drugs ... there is nothing good to come from there, and they're addictive and sounds like you know the bads

I can't imagine you support it either

OK, so you're not interested in having an honest conversation. I should have known better. I'll just end that the difference between us is I look at the War on Drugs and see a decades long record of massive failure. So when something fails for decades, maybe trying to do MORE of what failed is the wrong path. Maybe we should try something that hasn't failed miserably for decades, versus doing the same thing and expecting different results THIS time.

And the data I've seen on legalization efforts simply doesn't show that doing so increases harm, to kids, or the community. Just the opposite in fact.

what would you try? we have a vast system of legalized, Govt controlled drugs RIGHT NOW and the numbers?

In 2021, the number of reported deaths involving prescription opioids totaled 16,706.Feb 9, 2023

In 2020, an average of 44 people died each day from overdoses involving prescription opioids, totaling more than 16,000 deaths. Prescription opioids were involved in nearly 24% of all opioid overdose deaths in 2020, a 16% increase in prescription opioid-involved deaths from 2019 to 2020.


legalizing drugs is not workings, trying to sell this "control the drugs and we'll all be safe" is a huge massive lie


stop the drugs - actually start a war on them .... not this half butt thing we've had ........ right now? crime pays, selling drugs pays .... because get caught isn't tough or hard and the risk IS worth the reward

until it isn't .... then we're not trying to stop anything IMO

 

[hecatmoggie]

Liquor stores are open daily.

you equate alcohol to drugs ?

where do you putting smoking tobacco ?

 

[Lovebug]

you equate alcohol to drugs ?

where do you putting smoking tobacco ?

You were talking about addiction in the post to which I responded. Yes, both alcohol and tobacco are addictive and both can kill.

 

[poppopfox]

I've got enough experience with drug addicts thank you, I know what I know.

You don't know enough.

"massive" means the prescription drug addictions we have in the USA right now

Okay

you cannot equate guns to drugs

Sure I can. Drugs are inanimate, guns are inanimate. Both are perfectly safe and cause no harm unless in the hands of a human.

- please stop being silly. My guns don't influence my mind, warp my reality, they're not addicting in any way, shape or form, ... geeesh

You sure about that? America's Gun Addiction

Wherever you find addiction, there you find denial. The alcoholic who says, “I can quit any time I want,” and the gambling addict who says, “If I hit this time it’ll all work out,” are in the same boat as those who say, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” They are all addicts in denial, refusing to see the overwhelming evidence of the damage caused by their behavior.

The neuroscience of addiction is the same regardless of the behavior or substance. The brain doesn’t care if it’s porn addiction, shopping addiction, cigarette addiction, video game addiction or whatever you like, including gun addiction.

as for the bolded? yes, looking around is a very good way of understanding .... its wayyyy better than believing what's given to you through CNN or Twitter

I spent a few years counseling teens in a juvenile rehab facility. You look around.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Sure I can. Drugs are inanimate, guns are inanimate. Both are perfectly safe and cause no harm unless in the hands of a human.

I guess if that's the best results you can get comparing you're correct.

Not compare a guy like me, owning and shooting guns all my life and a guy my age having done meth for 20 years.

You'll understand maybe. Well, maybe not ....

You sure about that? America's Gun Addiction

owning guns isn't an addiction - that's just silly

Wherever you find addiction, there you find denial. The alcoholic who says, “I can quit any time I want,” and the gambling addict who says, “If I hit this time it’ll all work out,” are in the same boat as those who say, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” They are all addicts in denial, refusing to see the overwhelming evidence of the damage caused by their behavior.

adjective: addicted physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects.

Guns are not an addiction - please think about nonsense before posting

The neuroscience of addiction is the same regardless of the behavior or substance. The brain doesn’t care if it’s porn addiction, shopping addiction, cigarette addiction, video game addiction or whatever you like, including gun addiction.

I spent a few years counseling teens in a juvenile rehab facility. You look around.

if you know, why do you post silly stuff then?

 

[poppopfox]

I guess if that's the best results you can get comparing you're correct.
Not compare a guy like me, owning and shooting guns all my life and a guy my age having done meth for 20 years.
You'll understand maybe. Well, maybe not ....

owning guns isn't an addiction - that's just silly

Guns are not an addiction - please think about nonsense before posting

if you know, why do you post silly stuff then?

The science is anything but silly, and the bolded above sure sounds like denial to me.

Here’s how it works: Dopamine is the brain’s neurotransmitter that is released when you expect a reward – when you expect pleasure. The brain is flooded with dopamine when a shooter prepares to fire a gun. Firing a gun releases endorphins – the pleasure hormones – the same ones we experience with sex, with taking certain substances, and with other enjoyable activities. Since the pleasure (BANG! and endorphins) follows the anticipation so quickly and reliably, the brain easily learns to connect the psychological loop: guns – dopamine – pleasure/endorphins. Some brains then become preoccupied with seeking more dopamine.

 

[JasperL]

one example https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/15/...minalization-marijuana-drug-policy-reform-act

but its just one, Democrats are known for wanting legalization

OK that decriminalizes personal use. So it uses jail as you see it as a mandatory detox and treatment center, which doesn't seem all that smart because there are cheaper options. Should we do that with alcohol as well - if you have a beer, then you go to jail? Alcohol kills more than oxy, and it's by a factor of 10 or so.

If you want mandatory confinement for users, why not mandatory treatment centers? Fact is if an addict doesn't have a big savings account or good insurance, they can't access treatment at all.

no, she loves her drugs .... and she's lost so much cognitive I told her all the time NEVER do drugs, they control you ... she thought she was smarter than that or didn't care .... her choices and her actions and the consequences of them are hers too

The only comment I can make about a person I don't know is I'm sorry.

which is why I will NEVER support legalizing recreational drugs ... there is nothing good to come from there, and they're addictive and sounds like you know the bads

I can't imagine you support it either

I do support legalization because the alternatives have simply failed. The only good the War on Drugs has accomplished is we have a lot more jails and prisons, which is good for the prison industry and all the businesses that supply them, and it creates jobs to run them.

what would you try? we have a vast system of legalized, Govt controlled drugs RIGHT NOW and the numbers?

In 2021, the number of reported deaths involving prescription opioids totaled 16,706.Feb 9, 2023

In 2020, an average of 44 people died each day from overdoses involving prescription opioids, totaling more than 16,000 deaths. Prescription opioids were involved in nearly 24% of all opioid overdose deaths in 2020, a 16% increase in prescription opioid-involved deaths from 2019 to 2020.

What's already happening is a step in the right direction, which is for healthcare providers not handing out opiate prescriptions like they are candy. I had a kidney stone, explained I was a recovering addict, and what did I get at discharge? A prescription for opiates.

Not everyone who is addicted got started with a legal prescription, but many did. I volunteered for years for a residential treatment center, about half homeless, half veterans, and a lot of those guys got injured, got prescriptions for oxy or whatever, and MONTHS later were full blown addicts.

legalizing drugs is not workings, trying to sell this "control the drugs and we'll all be safe" is a huge massive lie

No one is making that argument. The actual argument is 'legalizing drugs, providing treatment options, if that fails supplying SAFER drugs in a controlled manner will work BETTER THAN the War on Drugs focusing on throwing people in jail for long mandatory sentences."

It's what we've done with alcohol for our entire history except for the failed experiment with prohibition. Yes, there are still millions of alcoholics, about 140k die each year from disease caused by drinking. But we don't propose dealing with that by raiding local bars and throwing everyone there having a beer or mixed drink in jail for months or years, and throwing the liquor store clerks in jail for 20 years. Why not? Because we tried prohibition and it was a failure. Why we think it will work with other drugs is a mystery.

stop the drugs - actually start a war on them .... not this half butt thing we've had ........ right now? crime pays, selling drugs pays .... because get caught isn't tough or hard and the risk IS worth the reward

until it isn't .... then we're not trying to stop anything IMO

Great, we'll need a lot more prisons.

I'll speak for myself here. My problem with alcohol was not that there were liquor stores near me, or that there is beer in every grocery store and convenience store, and every restaurant. My problem was I got addicted. The solution to that was for me to get clean, not to jail every other 'drug' user, and those who sell them the drugs.

 

[JasperL]

you equate alcohol to drugs ?

where do you putting smoking tobacco ?

Of course we 'equate' them. Alcohol is an addictive, intoxicating drug that kills about 140,000 Americans every year. Millions are active alcoholics, or drug addicts if you prefer. Cold turkey for an alcoholic is literally life threatening, so the addiction to this legal and widely available DRUG is mental and very much physical.

 

[poppopfox]

Not compare a guy like me, owning and shooting guns all my life and a guy my age having done meth for 20 years.

Questions 21.d. - 21.n. Prohibited Persons: Generally, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) prohibits the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession in or affecting interstate commerce of a firearm by one who: has been convicted of a felony in any Federal, including a general court-martial, State or local court, or any other crime, punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; is a fugitive from justice; is an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance;

So a prohibited person/drug addict in this country can easily lie on the required ATF form 4473, walk out of an FFL dealership with weapons and ammo and then brag about it on a public internet forum. That seems like a serious loophole that needs closing. Perhaps we should screen for those substances before the purchase and those who fail go into the NICS system?

 

[Nickyjo]

unfairly how ?


I don't get it

I have to presume that this sense from democrats goes back to the cocaine years, when crack, stereotypically used by blacks, was punished more than powder, stereotypically used by Wall Street.

 

[Nickyjo]

When exactly has "cracking down" on a drug actually stopped it at all?
The war on drugs has been an immense failure. It has done absolutely nothing to keep drugs off the streets.
All it has accomplished is to put a lot of people (most of which are poor minorities) in prison for relatively minor transgressions.

If you want to stop fentanyl, the better solution is to legalize marijuana, end the war on drugs, and focus on helping addicts recover. Focus more on education so young people understand how easily this stuff can kill you and how hard it is to avoid in the illegal drug market. Give them a safer, legal alternative that can be regulated.

Ah, you must be very young to have not yet realized that making sense on this issue doesn’t make sense on this issue in today’s political climate.

 

[Nickyjo]

Democrats are soft on crime now and they don't want to crack down on their drug using voters.

Who can argue with that steel trap logic?

 

[hecatmoggie]

The science is anything but silly, and the bolded above sure sounds like denial to me.

Here’s how it works: Dopamine is the brain’s neurotransmitter that is released when you expect a reward – when you expect pleasure. The brain is flooded with dopamine when a shooter prepares to fire a gun. Firing a gun releases endorphins – the pleasure hormones – the same ones we experience with sex, with taking certain substances, and with other enjoyable activities. Since the pleasure (BANG! and endorphins) follows the anticipation so quickly and reliably, the brain easily learns to connect the psychological loop: guns – dopamine – pleasure/endorphins. Some brains then become preoccupied with seeking more dopamine.

you're crazy

you could fit literally everything into the above and call everything "addictive"

good gawd

 

[hecatmoggie]

OK that decriminalizes personal use. So it uses jail as you see it as a mandatory detox and treatment center, which doesn't seem all that smart because there are cheaper options.

so no responsibility ever for the person choosing to do drugs?

Should we do that with alcohol as well - if you have a beer, then you go to jail? Alcohol kills more than oxy, and it's by a factor of 10 or so.

maybe, lets discuss it

If you want mandatory confinement for users, why not mandatory treatment centers? Fact is if an addict doesn't have a big savings account or good insurance, they can't access treatment at all.

a treatment center is punishment for breaking laws? maybe put them in a condo/beach/all inclusive resort ? and again, why choose to become addicted if they aint got savings/insurance?

I do support legalization because the alternatives have simply failed. The only good the War on Drugs has accomplished is we have a lot more jails and prisons, which is good for the prison industry and all the businesses that supply them, and it creates jobs to run them.

you want people to become addicted to legalized things .... and then say they don't want to be addicted to the very things that are legal ... amazing logic there

no war on drugs - sorry, it wasn't

What's already happening is a step in the right direction, which is for healthcare providers not handing out opiate prescriptions like they are candy. I had a kidney stone, explained I was a recovering addict, and what did I get at discharge? A prescription for opiates.

sounds like its working perfectly

Not everyone who is addicted got started with a legal prescription, but many did. I volunteered for years for a residential treatment center, about half homeless, half veterans, and a lot of those guys got injured, got prescriptions for oxy or whatever, and MONTHS later were full blown addicts.

No one is making that argument. The actual argument is 'legalizing drugs, providing treatment options, if that fails supplying SAFER drugs in a controlled manner will work BETTER THAN the War on Drugs focusing on throwing people in jail for long mandatory sentences."

for military vets/people recovering from pain etc I can see the slip to addictions

sadly making drugs available to everyone like you seem to lobby for wouldn't reduce addicts, it would greatly increase them IMO

It's what we've done with alcohol for our entire history except for the failed experiment with prohibition. Yes, there are still millions of alcoholics, about 140k die each year from disease caused by drinking. But we don't propose dealing with that by raiding local bars and throwing everyone there having a beer or mixed drink in jail for months or years, and throwing the liquor store clerks in jail for 20 years. Why not? Because we tried prohibition and it was a failure. Why we think it will work with other drugs is a mystery.

are all the damages alcohol abuse does worth it ? how would you handle alcohol? its legal, its controlled .... its what you're do with drugs, right ? and you think that's be BETTER ?

Great, we'll need a lot more prisons.

I'll speak for myself here. My problem with alcohol was not that there were liquor stores near me, or that there is beer in every grocery store and convenience store, and every restaurant. My problem was I got addicted. The solution to that was for me to get clean, not to jail every other 'drug' user, and those who sell them the drugs.

you chose to get addicted - your choice with legal substances and you knew it could go that way, right ? and I'm very happy to see that you're not addicted anymore, but the choices/decisions were yours right ? my daughter loves her drugs, they are her life

I hate them

 

[hecatmoggie]

Questions 21.d. - 21.n. Prohibited Persons: Generally, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) prohibits the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession in or affecting interstate commerce of a firearm by one who: has been convicted of a felony in any Federal, including a general court-martial, State or local court, or any other crime, punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; is a fugitive from justice; is an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance;

So a prohibited person/drug addict in this country can easily lie on the required ATF form 4473, walk out of an FFL dealership with weapons and ammo and then brag about it on a public internet forum. That seems like a serious loophole that needs closing. Perhaps we should screen for those substances before the purchase and those who fail go into the NICS system?

they lied

they're not supposed to lie

how would you stop them from lying?

 

[JasperL]

you're crazy

you could fit literally everything into the above and call everything "addictive"

good gawd

For me the relevant part of that is the effect of intoxicants and addiction are very much a chemical process. You take that drink or snort or whatever and you feel "good." It's not the high so much as the flood of endorphins that make us feel good. That's in part why someone troubled so often turns to drugs, and it's because when using they feel 'good' or at least not depressed, down, etc. which is their normal state. So people use more, because we rationally seek that good mental state, and that unfortunately results in the body producing less endorphins, as I understand the science, so 'baseline' when clean is lower, more depressed. So the person uses more, and more often, just to remain at baseline. That's the cycle.

And what I know is in full blown addiction, the drug isn't needed to feel "good" but just not-horrible. The first days are physical withdrawal, which sent me to the ER twice, and are miserable but have an end. After that is actual depression, and that often lasts for a long time - weeks or months, maybe longer. That's why getting over addiction is so difficult. The person while clean actually feels like crap, may be in full blown depression, and they know all it takes to feel basically 'normal' (for most folks, not addicted, not depressed) is a hit of that drug, and it's instant - the bad goes away. So we keep using, not because we like being drunk or high but because we like not feeling like absolute shit every day, day after day.

So essentially long term sobriety means getting through those difficult months, allowing the body and mind to heal, and it's really hard. Imagine waking up every day depressed, and knowing all it takes is, say, ice cream, to feel normal, and there's a half gallon in your freezer, or as close as the nearest convenience store. How many days will you not eat ice cream and tolerate feeling like shit, when not feeling like shit is just one spoonful/hit/drink away? Then months into being 'clean' you're still depressed, and can't see how life is good clean, because you can't in that moment see or experience 'normal' when clean.

Anyway, take that for what you will. My point here is try to explain why so many of us go so long, knowing what we're doing is really bad for us, family, jobs, etc. It's not an excuse because at some level we know we're harming MANY people, including ourselves but many others in most cases, and do it anyway, but just to explain it's not because we want to be high or whatever - we just want to feel NORMAL.

 

[Lisa]

I am very opposed to criminalizing drug addiction because it doesn't solve the problem. There is a deeper problem that must be addressed when people are trying to self medicate trauma or other mental health issues away with drugs. Locking up people doesn't cure the problem and neither does just drying them out. We need to adress the depeper mental health. problem of why.

 

[eohrnberger]

"132 Dems vote against bill cracking down on fentanyl, cite ‘inequities’ in criminal justice system"

When SJW empty and pointless virtue signaling is valued more than people's lives.

 

[ttwtt78640]

You cited a Fox article, so you probably are missing the entirety of their actual reasons for doing it. I wouldn't be surprised if the end of the article refutes the title, even. Happens a lot when righties cite Fox around here. Then they make a few nasty comments and run right the **** away from their and Fox's fail.

That’s an easy way to avoid addressing the point made.

 

[Lisa]

"132 Dems vote against bill cracking down on fentanyl, cite ‘inequities’ in criminal justice system"

When SJW empty and pointless virtue signaling is valued more than people's lives.

Then address the deeper mental health problem because putting people in prison doesn't stop the addiction or the black market sale. You need to stop people desiring these drugs by addressing why they seek them out. Criminalizing addicts has been tried for 50 years with no success. Stop this very failed policy.

 

[Nickyjo]

"132 Dems vote against bill cracking down on fentanyl, cite ‘inequities’ in criminal justice system"

When SJW empty and pointless virtue signaling is valued more than people's lives.

How does simply putting people in jail for drug use cure their addictions?