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10-1 odds that the mine explosion is Bush's fault by the end of the week.

FinnMacCool said:
They're not saying that Bush purposefully collapsed the mine on the workers as you imply. The article doesn't imply this either. Your interpertation of it is warped because you see liberal bias everywhere.



Can you see the spin now?

Happy Birthday, Your Not Special

More spin.

How is it spin I predicted that the Dems would find a way to blame Bush for the mine explosion and now they have in fact blamed Bush for the mine explosion, so where's the spin?
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
aha and there we have you admit that you think the mine explosion is Bush's fault.

I ****ing knew it.

...Except for the part where I specifically said I didn't think it was Bush's fault?

Remember that one?

Me said:
That's not blaming him, damnit, it's a factual statement. Is it not true that the regulations have been changed to become more lax under the Bush administration? Yes. Does that mean that anyone is saying that this particular incident is a direct result of Bush's actions? No. The idea is nonsense.

The only thing that Bush could be charged with is complacency or negligence in his loosening of the regulations, but it's clearly not as if Bush went to the mine and planted explosives.
 
How is it spin I predicted that the Dems would find a way to blame Bush for the mine explosion and now they have in fact blamed Bush for the mine explosion, so where's the spin?

You predicted nothing firstly. You made a topic to inflame liberals and it just so happened that it was close enough for you to "claim victory".

Secondly, until I see a democrat come out and say "It's Bush's fault for the mine explostion." I'm not buying your bullshit.

What you say that: "The mine explosion is not Bush's fault but here's why he's responsible."

Quit contradicting yourself.

I don't see where he said that :(
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
What you say that: "The mine explosion is not Bush's fault but here's why he's responsible."

Quit contradicting yourself.

I'm not. Not doing something or making it easier for something to occur does not mean that you caused the thing.

If a mayor fires all of the police officers in his city, does that mean that he is to blame for all of the murders that begin to occur? No, but his negligence or poor judgement means that he contributed to them, or allowed them to occur. There is a distinction here that you are not understanding.
 
Engimo said:
...Except for the part where I specifically said I didn't think it was Bush's fault?

Remember that one?

You contradict yourself it's called hypocricy look it up:

First you say:

YOU said:
That's not blaming him, damnit,

but then you say:

YOU said:
Is it not true that the regulations have been changed to become more lax under the Bush administration? Yes.


Then you say:
YOU said:
The only thing that Bush could be charged with is complacency or negligence in his loosening of the regulations

Tell me how exactly this isn't saying that Bush is to blame, really I would really love an insight into your logic.
 
Tell me how exactly this isn't saying that Bush is to blame, really I would really love an insight into your logic.

I think it speaks for itself doesn't it?

Your just doing your best to spin it.
 
FinnMacCool said:
You predicted nothing firstly. You made a topic to inflame liberals and it just so happened that it was close enough for you to "claim victory".

Secondly, until I see a democrat come out and say "It's Bush's fault for the mine explostion." I'm not buying your bullshit.

I don't see where he said that :(

Well here you go partna:

The full text of the letter to Boehner is below.


Dear Chairman Boehner:

In light of the tragedy at the International Coal Group’s Sago Mine, in Upshur County, West Virginia, we are writing to respectfully request that the Committee on Education and the Workforce conduct a series of hearings on the effectiveness of law enforcement and safety inspections at the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). These hearings should begin immediately.

A cursory review of citations issued by MSHA against the Sago Mine reveals a workplace with a deteriorating safety record. In 2004, the mine had received 68 citations from MSHA. In 2005, the number of citations jumped to over 200. Of those over 200 citations, 46 resulted from an 11-week review just before the disaster, and 96 were considered “significant and substantial.” Moreover, since 2000, the Sago Mine has had 42 injuries that resulted in lost work time. In 2004, the Sago Mine’s injury rate was almost three times the national rate for this type of mine.

One might expect massive penalty assessments under federal law for such a dismal record. On the contrary, the 2005 violations by the International Coal Group by the Department of Labor resulted in just a few thousand dollars of penalties. These penalties included assessments for noncompliance with requirements related to mine ventilation plans, accumulation of combustible materials, and roof support. Most of the fines ranged from $60 to $440, despite what would appear to be repeat violations.

Oversight hearings should consider, among other things, whether the current fine schedule or application of that schedule provides a sufficient deterrent to companies that would otherwise treat law-breaking as a cost of doing business. The International Coal Group had revenues exceeding $136 million in 2004.

The hearings should also review recent Congressional actions on MSHA. The Labor-HHS-Education Conference Report for fiscal year 2006 that sets next year’s MSHA budget included a $4.9 million cut in real-dollar terms in MSHA’s budget compared to FY 2005. Since 2001, MSHA staffing has been downsized by 170 positions. The bill also included a $6.7 million cut in real-dollar terms in OSHA’s budget between FY 2005 and FY 2006. That agency has been downsized by 162 positions since 2001.

The Committee should investigate whether the Bush Administration has employed people with proper regulatory experience in leadership positions at MSHA. Many senior MSHA officials have come directly from the mining industry, raising concerns about their ability to effectively oversee the industry and protect its workers. The United Mine Workers has compiled a list of MSHA officials’ connections to the mining industry. For example, President Bush’s first appointment to MSHA was Assistant Secretary of Labor for Mine Safety and Health David Lauriski, a long-time management official in the mining industry. In addition, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Labor for MSHA John Caylor held management jobs with Cyprus Minerals Co., Amax Mining Co. and Magma Copper Co. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Labor for MSHA John Correll served in management posts at Amax Mining and Peabody Coal companies. Special Assistant for MSHA Mark Ellis served as legal counsel to the American Mining Congress. And Chief of Health for Coal Melinda Pon was a management official at BHP Minerals-Utah International.

Since Mr. Lauriski resigned his position in November 2004, the agency has been operating under an acting administrator. The President did not nominate a replacement for Mr. Lauriski until September 2005. That replacement has yet to take his seat.

With mining company officials at the helm of MSHA, the agency’s focus has clearly shifted away from protecting miners. A 2005 report by the AFL-CIO found that “at MSHA, 17 standards to improve safety and health for miners have been withdrawn since President Bush took office, including the Air Quality, Chemical Substances and Respiratory standards…For the most part at MSHA, those standards that have been proposed during the Bush Administration favor industry by moving to roll back existing protections. There are no pending standards to protect miners from hazards on their job.”


We are concerned that MSHA has also injected political considerations into its safety enforcement program. In April 2004, the Administrator for Coal Mine Safety and Health (through the issuance of Procedure Instruction Letter No. I04-V-01) changed investigative procedures in such a way that may allow high-level administrators at MSHA – who may have no experience in handling on-the-ground accident investigations – to inject themselves into the violation drafting process. Under the new procedures, the draft report and conclusion of professional investigators regarding a serious or fatal accident are now apparently subject to re-review by the Department of Labor’s political appointees to determine what action, if any, to take against the mining company.

The Committee should consider whether this new procedure allows political considerations, rather than safety considerations, to be injected directly into the investigation and enforcement process. Indeed, this change in investigative procedure came after MSHA investigator Jack Spadaro publicly blew the whistle on changes made to his team’s investigation report on the 2000 Martin County Coal sludge spill, reducing the number of violations MSHA would impose on the mining company from eight to two. Mr. Spadaro, a highly-regarded expert on mine safety, was transferred, demoted, and ultimately forced out of the agency.

The Committee has not held a single oversight hearing on MSHA since President Bush took office in January 2001. As you know, MSHA is responsible for the health and safety of tens of thousands of mine workers, who work in one of the nation’s most dangerous occupations. In the last five years, the only legislative Committee hearing on any worker safety issue concerned proposals to weaken the Occupational Safety and Health Act. A Subcommittee hearing billed as “oversight” focused instead on new amendments to promote OSHA’s voluntary compliance programs.

Mr. Chairman, we believe hearings should commence immediately on the effectiveness of law enforcement and inspection processes at MSHA and OSHA under current law and under current management. These hearings should provide ample opportunity for the Committee to hear from MSHA and OSHA officials, experts, worker advocates, as well as individual miners and their families.

On behalf of the tens of thousands of coal miners and their families and friends, we urge you to commence these oversight hearings right away. We greatly appreciate your immediate attention to our request.

Sincerely,

GEORGE MILLER
Senior Democratic Member
Committee on Education and the Workforce

MAJOR OWENS

Ranking Member
Subcommittee on Workforce Protections

Basically here is your peoples logic: blaming Bush is not Blaming Bush the Democrats have to explicitly say that Bush drove down to that mine and planted personally explosives before it could be considered blaming him.

Jesus Christ people and you accuse me of spinning it's really laughable to the lengths you'll go to defend this bullshit.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Well here you go partna:

The full text of the letter to Boehner is below.




Basically here is your peoples logic: blaming Bush is not Blaming Bush the Democrats have to explicitly say that Bush drove down to that mine and planted personally explosives before it could be considered blaming him.

Jesus Christ people and you accuse me of spinning it's really laughable to the lengths you'll go to defend this bullshit.

I know it's rather irrelevant, but have you ever heard of a comma? It's a really fun grammatical tool that you use to break up sentences into coherent parts! You should try it, I guarantee you'll be in love.
 
Engimo said:
I know it's rather irrelevant, but have you ever heard of a comma? It's a really fun grammatical tool that you use to break up sentences into coherent parts! You should try it, I guarantee you'll be in love.

Have you ever heard of a comma splice? Because the sections I bolded are in fact comma splices. I suggest you take an English course before you lecture me on proper punctuation.
 
I'll say it again. When these democrats come out and say that George W Bush is personally responsible for the mining explosion, I'll listen. Nice try.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Have you ever heard of a comma splice? Because the sections I bolded are in fact comma splices. I suggest you take an English course before you lecture me on proper punctuation.

Ahh, now you type properly. I wasn't talking about what you quoted, silly, I was talking about your incoherent sentence structure.

TOT said:
Basically here is your peoples logic: blaming Bush is not Blaming Bush the Democrats have to explicitly say that Bush drove down to that mine and planted personally explosives before it could be considered blaming him.

Jesus Christ people and you accuse me of spinning it's really laughable to the lengths you'll go to defend this bullshit.

With commas and decent punctuation said:
Basically, here is your people's logic: Blaming Bush is not blaming Bush; the Democrats have to explicitly say that Bush drove down to that mine and personally planted explosives before it could be considered blaming him.

Jesus Christ, people.And you accuse me of spinning? It's really laughable the lengths you'll go to to defend this bullshit.
 
FinnMacCool said:
I'll say it again. When these democrats come out and say that George W Bush is personally responsible for the mining explosion, I'll listen. Nice try.

Dude seriously wtf the Democrats have called for oversight hearings on the Bush administration for their policies in the mining industry. Catch a clue.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Tell that to the mirror buddy.

Trajan, this whole irrelevant spin you are putting on the issue is exactly why most of the respectable members of this forum cannot respect your opinions anymore. This is a prime example of why your hate thread about finn maccool became a trojan bashing thread within three posts.

The idea that some of the blame would be shifted to the bush administration by some is neither surprising nor original nor intuitive on your part. There is no great political commentary from you here nor do you even have the merit of being entertaining.

Further, some simple reading comprehension would go miles in actually understanding the point of the letter you referenced. No one said Bush was to blame for the disaster in that letter. The letter simply referenced reforms that should be made in fining standards and suggested that the Bush ADMINISTRATION should be held accountable for reforming its policies concerning worker safety issues and those it leaves in charge of making those policies. The FACT of the matter is, in their sphere of influence, the Bush administration dropped the ball, so to speak. However, the burden of responsibility lies with the mining company itself as evidenced by their continual dismissive reaction to violations and the attached fines.

You called nothing except maybe yourself out onto the carpet to be laughed at again. You succeeded only in situating your A$$ on your shoulders and proving that your decline in respect is well deserved.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
woopdee sh!t . . . . .

If you don't think it's an issue, then don't try to defend your poor grammar and sentence structure, just dismiss what I'm saying. It's not my fault that your posts read like giant run-on sentences.
 
jallman said:
Trajan, this whole irrelevant spin you are putting on the issue is exactly why most of the respectable members of this forum cannot respect your opinions anymore. This is a prime example of why your hate thread about finn maccool became a trojan bashing thread within three posts.

The idea that some of the blame would be shifted to the bush administration by some is neither surprising nor original nor intuitive on your part. There is no great political commentary from you here nor do you even have the merit of being entertaining.

Further, some simple reading comprehension would go miles in actually understanding the point of the letter you referenced. No one said Bush was to blame for the disaster in that letter. The letter simply referenced reforms that should be made in fining standards and suggested that the Bush ADMINISTRATION should be held accountable for reforming its policies concerning worker safety issues and those it leaves in charge of making those policies. The FACT of the matter is, in their sphere of influence, the Bush administration dropped the ball, so to speak. However, the burden of responsibility lies with the mining company itself as evidenced by their continual dismissive reaction to violations and the attached fines.

You called nothing except maybe yourself out onto the carpet to be laughed at again. You succeeded only in situating your A$$ on your shoulders and proving that your decline in respect is well deserved.

You're the one's who are spinning:

This is how the article begins:

Lawmakers Call For Immediate Congressional Hearings into Mine Safety to Help Prevent Another Tragedy

Say Congress Has Abdicated its Oversight Responsibilities on Worker Safety Issues, While Bush Administration has Filled Worker Safety Agencies with Industry Insiders
Wednesday, January 04, 2006

WASHINGTON, DC -- In response to the devastating mine incident in West Virginia that has killed 12 mine workers and injured one other, Representatives George Miller (D-CA) and Major Owens (D-NY) today called for immediate Congressional hearings into mine safety. Miller said the hearings are critical to getting Congress the information it needs to determine what went wrong in West Virginia and to act to prevent another tragedy.

This is where they blame Bush:

Since Mr. Lauriski resigned his position in November 2004, the agency has been operating under an acting administrator. The President did not nominate a replacement for Mr. Lauriski until September 2005. That replacement has yet to take his seat.

With mining company officials at the helm of MSHA, the agency’s focus has clearly shifted away from protecting miners. A 2005 report by the AFL-CIO found that “at MSHA, 17 standards to improve safety and health for miners have been withdrawn since President Bush took office, including the Air Quality, Chemical Substances and Respiratory standards…For the most part at MSHA, those standards that have been proposed during the Bush Administration favor industry by moving to roll back existing protections. There are no pending standards to protect miners from hazards on their job.”

Now tell me by what warped logic could that not be considered blaming the Bush administration for the mine tragedy?
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
You're the one's who are spinning:



Now tell me by what warped logic could that not be considered blaming the Bush administration for the mine tragedy?

The warped logic that I posted before that makes perfect sense, probably.
 
Engimo said:
If you don't think it's an issue, then don't try to defend your poor grammar and sentence structure, just dismiss what I'm saying. It's not my fault that your posts read like giant run-on sentences.

This is me caring see how much I'm caring seriously I really really really care about this issue and I feel your pain and have came to the conclusion that I will no longer write in run on sentences because it's just way to difficult for some people to comprehend them I apologize for my aggregious behavior and pray for your forgiveness run on sentences are bad they are very very bad and all run on sentences should be sent straight to the depths of hell because like I said run on sentences are so very horrible they are the worst thing since nazis and Nysn which are very similar if you stop to think about it laugh now but you'll be singing in a very different tune when you're goose stepping to the rythmic melodies of bye bye mark my words the day is coming when the run on sentences nazis and nysnc will be ruling the world along side the illuminati and those guys who decided to have hot dog buns come in packs of six while hot dogs come in packs of eight those guys have got to be stopped immediatly before its to late and Im the one whos got to stop them
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
lmfao point, set, and match. Thanks for the proof that anything and everything that goes wrong in the world is Bush's fault.

Trajan - your logic, of course, is incredibly faulty.
I'll give you 2-1 odds that the next time FEMA ****s up it's Bush's fault.
I'll give you 2-1 odds that when the next terrorist attacks us because we haven't done what the 9/11 commission recomended it's Bush's fault.

Why? Because it is. Book it.
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
This is me caring see how much I'm caring seriously I really really really care about this issue and I feel your pain and have came to the conclusion that I will no longer write in run on sentences because it's just way to difficult for some people to comprehend them I apologize for my aggregious behavior and pray for your forgiveness run on sentences are bad they are very very bad and all run on sentences should be sent straight to the depths of hell because like I said run on sentences are so very horrible they are the worst thing since nazis and Nysn which are very similar if you stop to think about it laugh now but you'll be singing in a very different tune when you're goose stepping to the rythmic melodies of bye bye mark my words the day is coming when the run on sentences nazis and nysnc will be ruling the world along side the illuminati and those guys who decided to have hot dog buns come in packs of six while hot dogs come in packs of eight those guys have got to be stopped immediatly before its to late and Im the one whos got to stop them

It's "egregious", but I doubt that you care. Either way, I find it rather disrespectful to be writing as you do - obviously you know how to write properly, you just don't take the time or put in the effort to make your posts grammatically/structurally correct. I do it because I don't think it's fair to expect other people to have to guess at what I am saying.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
You're the one's who are spinning:



Now tell me by what warped logic could that not be considered blaming the Bush administration for the mine tragedy?

Okay, since you dont understand my post any more than you did the article, let me repeat the main idea:

While the Bush administration clearly committed grievous oversights in their regulatory capacity, the blame for this tragedy rests on the company for taking a nonchalant stance toward the violations they were charged with. This nonchalance was made more convenient by the lax fines and the negligence of the Bush administration and its relevant agencies.

I dont see what is so warped about that logic...the blame rests with the mining company. The Bush Administration needs to be encouraged to reform its role in the safety standards of the mines. Where is your point?
 
Engimo said:
It's "egregious", but I doubt that you care. Either way, I find it rather disrespectful to be writing as you do - obviously you know how to write properly, you just don't take the time or put in the effort to make your posts grammatically/structurally correct. I do it because I don't think it's fair to expect other people to have to guess at what I am saying.

Why not have to guess at the structure, too? We already have to guess as to what his point is...might as well make it really fun! :rofl
 
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