10-1 odds that the mine explosion is Bush's fault by the end of the week.

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Okay, since you dont understand my post any more than you did the article, let me repeat the main idea:

While the Bush administration clearly committed grievous oversights in their regulatory capacity, the blame for this tragedy rests on the company for taking a nonchalant stance toward the violations they were charged with. This nonchalance was made more convenient by the lax fines and the negligence of the Bush administration and its relevant agencies.

I dont see what is so warped about that logic...the blame rests with the mining company. The Bush Administration needs to be encouraged to reform its role in the safety standards of the mines. Where is your point?

The point is I made the prediction that this story would get spinned some way some how to place blame on the Bush administration and that's exactly what happened just like with Katrina where's your point.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Trajan - your logic, of course, is incredibly faulty.
I'll give you 2-1 odds that the next time FEMA ****s up it's Bush's fault.
I'll give you 2-1 odds that when the next terrorist attacks us because we haven't done what the 9/11 commission recomended it's Bush's fault.

Why? Because it is. Book it.

Ya because it would have nothing to do with the treasonous behavior of the left who at every turn have tied the hands of this administration in its efforts to fight terrorism because the Democrats care more about partisan politics than they do about National Security.

Leak some more classified strategies for fighting the war on terror and then tell me how it's Bush's fault if we get attacked.

Oh by the way 9-11 was Clinton's fault Clinton-Gorelick memo/wall, able danger, book it!

 

[jallman]

The point is I made the prediction that this story would get spinned some way some how to place blame on the Bush administration and that's exactly what happened just like with Katrina where's your point.

The point, one more time for the dee dee dee's (namely trajan), is that you made no grand prediction concerning this. Bush is the man in charge and his administration is responsible for things like worker safety. 12 miners die in an accident, it is no great jump in logic that somewhere something the administration could have done differently might have had an impact. there is no real blame being place, but there is criticism of the current policies.

But you, playing it like you are some genius, make this huge circus about your imagined political intuition and have done nothing more than made a fool of yourself...and tried to do it at the expense of a large cross section of this forum. Two threads about the same nothing accomplishment of predicting a given. You must be proud of yourself.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Why isn't this thread in the basement? Way to use a tragedy to attack liberals, asswhipe.

Because until Mr Potty mouth came along, the discussion was on target and relevant. I for one was being informed and finding useful things to think about.

Just because it's on target in its depiction of Democrats as ambulance chasing parasites latching onto every disaster as a potential weapon against a Republican president, doesn't mean is belongs down where the sun don't shine.

Now, the thread was a prediction that the Democrats would use this minor incident in the mine to attack Bush.

The Democrats have indeed come out and used this minor miner mortality as a possible club against Bush policies.

What's your problem? That Trajan was right?

 

[FinnMacCool]

Akhbar, rewind and look at the last three pages. Then come back and respond.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

The point, one more time for the dee dee dee's (namely trajan), is that you made no grand prediction concerning this. Bush is the man in charge and his administration is responsible for things like worker safety. 12 miners die in an accident, it is no great jump in logic that somewhere something the administration could have done differently might have had an impact. there is no real blame being place, but there is criticism of the current policies.

But you, playing it like you are some genius, make this huge circus about your imagined political intuition and have done nothing more than made a fool of yourself...and tried to do it at the expense of a large cross section of this forum. Two threads about the same nothing accomplishment of predicting a given. You must be proud of yourself.

Well, no.

The miners are responsible for their own safety as far as that goes, the mine owners are responsible for the rest. Between the two, 100% of the responsibility is shared.

The only role the government should have would be to ensure that neither party is engaging in deliberately deceptive practices that could lead the other into preventable dangerous conditions. There's no Constitutional requirement that the US government supervise mine safety.

Now, since we do not know what caused the accident yet, it's pretty hard to say if the mine company is at fault, if the miners made a mistake, or if the mine safety rules were indeed inadequate.

Needless to say, the only thing a congressional investigation will do is to put a bunch of happily grim Democrat boobs on the boob-tube to take advantage of a tragedy and interfere in the investigation itself. Just like when the gas tank of Flight 800 blew up, all the nut-case conspiracy theorists were out there in front of cameras practically before the fuselage hit the water, people seeking to profit off this mine accident are out there chumming the waters now.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Okay, since you dont understand my post any more than you did the article, let me repeat the main idea:

While the Bush administration clearly committed grievous oversights in their regulatory capacity, the blame for this tragedy rests on the company for taking a nonchalant stance toward the violations they were charged with. This nonchalance was made more convenient by the lax fines and the negligence of the Bush administration and its relevant agencies.

I dont see what is so warped about that logic...the blame rests with the mining company. The Bush Administration needs to be encouraged to reform its role in the safety standards of the mines. Where is your point?

How do we know that the Bush administration did anything wrong until we know exactly what happened? And while the unions always like to point the finger of blame at the management, oft times it's the workers that screwed up.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Akhbar, rewind and look at the last three pages. Then come back and respond.

I wrote my post relating to the material included preceeding yours. Subsequent posts are not relevant to what I said.

And yes, there's clearly a conspiracy between hotdog companies and bun companies.

Edit: Yeah, that was way back on post 34# when you started crying.

 

[FinnMacCool]

OKay fine Akbhar, you don't have to if you don't want to but I'm not going to copy and paste what I said just so I can humor you.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Typical liberal response accuse someone of spinning by spinning.


Oh really then just what the hell does this mean?

This is how I started the thread:


And this is where I proved my prediction:



Where the **** is my spin I'm waiting for your spinned response.

Seems to me the only person blaming Bush is YOU! Do you realize that you've posted the same bullshit at least half a dozen times in this thread. You started this thread as a troll and now you're spamming all of us.

This thread sucks....

 

[26 X World Champs]

First you write this:

Needless to say, the only thing a congressional investigation will do is to put a bunch of happily grim Democrat boobs on the boob-tube to take advantage of a tragedy and interfere in the investigation itself.

Then you wrote this:

How do we know that the Bush administration did anything wrong until we know exactly what happened? And while the unions always like to point the finger of blame at the management, oft times it's the workers that screwed up.

Hmmm? Good question! Looks like we need a CONGRESSIONAL HEARING to answer your question...Did you also forget that only REPUBLICANS can actually institute an investigation and that they would have the majority of people on the panel?

:spin: to the Nth Degree...

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I wrote my post relating to the material included preceeding yours. Subsequent posts are not relevant to what I said.

And yes, there's clearly a conspiracy between hotdog companies and bun companies.

Edit: Yeah, that was way back on post 34# when you started crying.

God damn right and they have to be stopped! lmfao

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Well, no.

The miners are responsible for their own safety as far as that goes, the mine owners are responsible for the rest. Between the two, 100% of the responsibility is shared.

The only role the government should have would be to ensure that neither party is engaging in deliberately deceptive practices that could lead the other into preventable dangerous conditions. There's no Constitutional requirement that the US government supervise mine safety.

Now, since we do not know what caused the accident yet, it's pretty hard to say if the mine company is at fault, if the miners made a mistake, or if the mine safety rules were indeed inadequate.

Needless to say, the only thing a congressional investigation will do is to put a bunch of happily grim Democrat boobs on the boob-tube to take advantage of a tragedy and interfere in the investigation itself. Just like when the gas tank of Flight 800 blew up, all the nut-case conspiracy theorists were out there in front of cameras practically before the fuselage hit the water, people seeking to profit off this mine accident are out there chumming the waters now.

Nope you're wrong,

A) Some of the miners were black,

B) Bush hates black people,

Conclusion: Bush blew up the mine.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Seems to me the only person blaming Bush is YOU! Do you realize that you've posted the same bullshit at least half a dozen times in this thread. You started this thread as a troll and now you're spamming all of us.

This thread sucks....

Well then you obviously didn't read the Democrats press release.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Well then you obviously didn't read the Democrats press release.

Please don't spam this thread again, it sucks. I absolutely read the press release and your conclusion is one written by someone who is totally and compeltely biased and by someone who was trying oh so hard to make himself feel smart.

Too bad it didn't work...Do you know what FDR once said?

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Get it or shall I type it again?

 

[Billo_Really]

This is such a dumb ass thread.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

This is such a dumb ass thread.

How's that? I was right the Dems issued a press release two days ago calling for oversite hearings on the Bush administration for mine safety regulation and that claimed that the mine tragedy was Bush's fault, this proved the prediction that I made on Monday that the Democrats would be angeling to place blame on Bush for the mine tragedy.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by TOT:
How's that? I was right the Dems issued a press release two days ago calling for oversite hearings on the Bush administration for mine safety regulation and that claimed that the mine tragedy was Bush's fault, this proved the prediction that I made on Monday that the Democrats would be angeling to place blame on Bush for the mine tragedy

The Democrats are FOS. They need to find better ways to spend their time.

 

[Pacridge]

I have said if they have blatantly disregarded violations, they should be sued. I also know the facts, these men who go down everyday, they know the safety of those mines better then any pencil neck inspector. I have not heard one case where the WORKERS, were concerned about their safety, not one. I trust they know when a mine is in disarray, not some CEO, not some government hard a$$.:roll:

Every interview with those living near or working in the mine that I've heard or read say, basically, the "company is doing a great job keeping the mine workers safe." I'm not saying some people haven't said there's a problem, just that I haven't heard it.

I don't know jack about coal mining. I do know something about logging and commercial ocean fishing. Both can be very dangerous jobs. The government makes safety rules and regulations. Sometimes these rules are invented by some guy sitting at desk who doesn't anything about what it's like to fish or log. A few years back I remember the state came up with a rule about the how long a "choker" (piece of cable that wraps around a log or group of logs, used to drag the logs up the hill) could be. In talking with several choker setters they told me it was a completely dumba$$ rule and in fact made their jobs more dangerous. The whole thing started because some guy got killed with a cable that was too short, so now all cables must be at least "X" long. Turns out this can be a problem in some cases.

The point I'm trying to make is the people doing the work should have the most say in what does and does not improve safety. When something like this happens all too often there seems to be a bunch of knee jerk reactions. I feel awful about those who lost their lives and their loved ones. But I'd hate to see a bunch of new rules that in the end either don't improve safety, or worse make it less safe.

 

[Conflict]

Every interview with those living near or working in the mine that I've heard or read say, basically, the "company is doing a great job keeping the mine workers safe." I'm not saying some people haven't said there's a problem, just that I haven't heard it.

I don't know jack about coal mining. I do know something about logging and commercial ocean fishing. Both can be very dangerous jobs. The government makes safety rules and regulations. Sometimes these rules are invented by some guy sitting at desk who doesn't anything about what it's like to fish or log. A few years back I remember the state came up with a rule about the how long a "choker" (piece of cable that wraps around a log or group of logs, used to drag the logs up the hill) could be. In talking with several choker setters they told me it was a completely dumba$$ rule and in fact made their jobs more dangerous. The whole thing started because some guy got killed with a cable that was too short, so now all cables must be at least "X" long. Turns out this can be a problem in some cases.

The point I'm trying to make is the people doing the work should have the most say in what does and does not improve safety. When something like this happens all too often there seems to be a bunch of knee jerk reactions. I feel awful about those who lost their lives and their loved ones. But I'd hate to see a bunch of new rules that in the end either don't improve safety, or worse make it less safe.

How about we stick to the notion of corporate responsibility. Just as any perosn should be held accountable for their actions... so should the corporation. The liability is part of the issue. No one particular entity should be exempt from liability.

There is no need for further legislation... so long as we understand that this nation if by the people and for the people......

NOt for the people and by the corporation....

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

How about we stick to the notion of corporate responsibility. Just as any perosn should be held accountable for their actions... so should the corporation. The liability is part of the issue. No one particular entity should be exempt from liability.

There is no need for further legislation... so long as we understand that this nation if by the people and for the people......

NOt for the people and by the corporation....

Ha it's you I posted the proof now pay up here it is again:

Wednesday, January 04, 2006

Lawmakers Call For Immediate Congressional Hearings into Mine Safety to Help Prevent Another Tragedy

Say Congress Has Abdicated its Oversight Responsibilities on Worker Safety Issues, While Bush Administration has Filled Worker Safety Agencies with Industry Insiders

Since Mr. Lauriski resigned his position in November 2004, the agency has been operating under an acting administrator. The President did not nominate a replacement for Mr. Lauriski until September 2005. That replacement has yet to take his seat.

With mining company officials at the helm of MSHA, the agency’s focus has clearly shifted away from protecting miners. A 2005 report by the AFL-CIO found that “at MSHA, 17 standards to improve safety and health for miners have been withdrawn since President Bush took office, including the Air Quality, Chemical Substances and Respiratory standards…For the most part at MSHA, those standards that have been proposed during the Bush Administration favor industry by moving to roll back existing protections. There are no pending standards to protect miners from hazards on their job.”

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ed31_democrats/rel1406.html

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

First you write this:

Then you wrote this:

Hmmm? Good question! Looks like we need a CONGRESSIONAL HEARING to answer your question...Did you also forget that only REPUBLICANS can actually institute an investigation and that they would have the majority of people on the panel?

:spin: to the Nth Degree...

No, Congressional hearings serve only one purpose. To get Congressional faces on TV. Look at the 9-11 Commission. It lacked the integrity to boot Gorelick, and the Republicans lacked the integrity to walk off. All of it's conclusions are suspect because of Gorelick's obvious conflict of interest.

There are both governmental agencies, and private insurance companies, the damn unions, and the pack of disgusting lawyers followed each bereaved family member to figure out what happened. We don't need to waste the time of our precious congressmen holding an amatuer kangaroo court when all they need to do is read the accident report the professionals will write.

Then again, perhaps if they're busy wasting time on this sham they won't be able to spend our money. Hmmmm...

And, of course, I never said a word in praise of Republicans.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Nope you're wrong,

A) Some of the miners were black,

B) Bush hates black people,

Conclusion: Bush blew up the mine.

They're coal miners. I expect they all were pretty black after the explosion. Only on some it will wash off.

 

[Middleground]

Seriously wtf it really couldn't be anymore clear let's try it again, this is how the article begins:

WASHINGTON, DC -- In response to the devastating mine incident in West Virginia that has killed 12 mine workers and injured one other, Representatives George Miller (D-CA) and Major Owens (D-NY) today called for immediate Congressional hearings into mine safety. Miller said the hearings are critical to getting Congress the information it needs to determine what went wrong in West Virginia and to act to prevent another tragedy.

This is where they blame Bush:

Since Mr. Lauriski resigned his position in November 2004, the agency has been operating under an acting administrator. The President did not nominate a replacement for Mr. Lauriski until September 2005. That replacement has yet to take his seat.

With mining company officials at the helm of MSHA, the agency’s focus has clearly shifted away from protecting miners. A 2005 report by the AFL-CIO found that “at MSHA, 17 standards to improve safety and health for miners have been withdrawn since President Bush took office, including the Air Quality, Chemical Substances and Respiratory standards…For the most part at MSHA, those standards that have been proposed during the Bush Administration favor industry by moving to roll back existing protections. There are no pending standards to protect miners from hazards on their job.”


Serioulsy catch a clue.

Traj, I'm completely flabbergasted by this silly thread. I know that you are extremely partisan but I had no idea you were so separated from reality that you actually believe what you're writing. You remind me of a little kid who refuses to hear something by blocking his ears while singing "LA, LA, LA, LA."

Now whether or not Bush will be blamed for this incident is yet to be seen. And if it does happen, well I personally think it would be a stretch. That said, You have NOT come forth with anything even close to proving your skewed logic.

First off, do you know the difference between a fact and opinion? Based-on your posts in this thread, I think not. So let me give you a bit of education here. A fact is a fact... it's something that has happened. For instance, in the nursery rhyme "Jack and Jill," both Jack and Jill came tumbling down the hill. I think there's no disputing that because it goes "Jack and Jill came tumbling down the hill." Pretty simple, eh? So whether it's Limbaugh or Moore who says that both Jack and Jill came tumbling down the hill, it's a proven fact. Now here's where it's gets more complicated. Moore says that both Jack and Jill fell down the hill because they were so hungry because of Bush's cutbacks to the poor, that they couldn't stand on their feet and that's why they tumbled. Limbaugh says that both Jack and Jill fell down the hill because Clinton was chasing after them to get a blowjob and they tumbled. Now because the nursery rhyme does not contain that specific information -- let alone the mention of both Bush and Clinton -- it would be considered speculation on both Limbaugh and Moore's part, no? And of course, speculation is not fact, but more of an opinion. Perhaps one of them is right, or both are wrong, but because it is not yet proven, then it's purely an opinion.

So now, let get to the articles that you posted. I'll just run-through the text that you bolded.

The President did not nominate a replacement for Mr. Lauriski until September 2005.

So, my dear Traj, please answer the following:

1) Is it fact or opinion that The President did not nominate a replacement for Mr. Lauriski until September 2005?

hint: http://www.utahmining.org/04nov.htm (under SAFETY & HEALTH)

http://www.msha.gov/asinfo.htm


2) Is it fact or opinion that 17 standards to improve safety and health for miners have been withdrawn since President Bush took office?

hint: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...+health+for+miners+have+been+withdrawn+&hl=en
(page 12, second paragraph)

(gold stars for every correct answer!)

 

[hipsterdufus]

Well, no.

The miners are responsible for their own safety as far as that goes, the mine owners are responsible for the rest. Between the two, 100% of the responsibility is shared.

The only role the government should have would be to ensure that neither party is engaging in deliberately deceptive practices that could lead the other into preventable dangerous conditions. There's no Constitutional requirement that the US government supervise mine safety.

Now, since we do not know what caused the accident yet, it's pretty hard to say if the mine company is at fault, if the miners made a mistake, or if the mine safety rules were indeed inadequate.

Needless to say, the only thing a congressional investigation will do is to put a bunch of happily grim Democrat boobs on the boob-tube to take advantage of a tragedy and interfere in the investigation itself. Just like when the gas tank of Flight 800 blew up, all the nut-case conspiracy theorists were out there in front of cameras practically before the fuselage hit the water, people seeking to profit off this mine accident are out there chumming the waters now.

Look, there were over 200 safety violations at this mine. This is a bi-partisan issue about the safety of Americans, and the gutting of the regulatory power of the government - not just for mine safety, but EPA, OSHA, FDA and all of the other programs that Bush is slashing. Do you think Dems would care less if the miners down there were Republicans? Of course not. The fines levied against the company were anywhere between $5.00 and $250.00 - peanuts. I'll wait to see what the investigation says, but at first glance, it looks like this mine should have been shut down until safety concerns were properly addressed.