£9 million on "Bremain" leaflet drop

[Infinite Chaos]

~ PeteEU claimed that brexit supporters have no facts, without providing evidence ~

I hope you realise what you just said?

~ Then it makes sense to point out that he is not even willing to debate the facts.

he did? Post #19

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/250752-9-million-bremain-leaflet-drop-2.html#post1065745308

 

[gunner]

My name is relevant..

Of course. Hence my post!

does it mean that you are a gun nut or an Arsenal fan that cant spell?

None of the above. Military perhaps:doh

Any debate like this should be based on facts and the truth. This is not what the Brexit side wants and that is clear. Just look at their attempt to blame the EU for the disproportionate amount of money the UK pays for healthcare to other EU nations. Blaming inefficient hospitals, the EU and others, instead of say the truth and facts... more Brits that go abroad to live are much older and require more healthcare than EU nationals that come to the UK for work. The reason that the UK pays considerably more to Spain for its citizens healthcare than Spain pays to the UK.. it is simple... Spanish pensioners dont go to the UK to live, where as a huge portion of Brits in Spain are pensioners who need more healthcare than young people. It aint hard, and yet the out campaign tried use this and many other issues to their advantage by blaming Europe.

Careful with the spelling. Again, you have an agenda like any other pro/anti Euro supporter.

 

[joG]

I said facts.. not arguments.

Fact.. we know what we have now. We have influence on what we can have in the future.
Fact.. Leaving the EU, we do not know what we will have in the future and our influence set that future is highly limited.

Agree or not?

Certainly not with the first. Most people I know do not understand the Lisbon, Maastricht or Schengen Treaties, having never read them. Even those that have read them and try to keep up with their change of the most fundamental things like how decisions are made in what areas by whom.
That nobody knows the future is quite trivial.

 

[PeteEU]

Certainly not with the first. Most people I know do not understand the Lisbon, Maastricht or Schengen Treaties, having never read them. Even those that have read them and try to keep up with their change of the most fundamental things like how decisions are made in what areas by whom.
That nobody knows the future is quite trivial.

What the hell are you talking about? Who the hell cares about Lisbon, Maastricht.. and why the hell bring in Schengen? They are treaties that no one reads, just as no one reads the laws coming out Westminster or any other parliament..

Fact: We know that we have free access to move around Europe. We can take a job where ever we want. We can go on vacation where we want and we can settle where we want. We know we cant be discriminated against based on nationality. Those are the facts that everyone knows.. We also know that these basic principles wont change in the future as long as we stay in the EU. There is very little uncertainty.

Fact: If we leave the EU, then everything comes into question. Can we travel freely around Europe? We dont know. Can we settle anywhere in Europe? We dont know. The list of what we dont know is huge. Massive uncertainty.

Fact: Staying in the EU will keep the status quo for our companies and hence jobs.

Fact: Leaving the EU will put trade in question. Will our jobs stay in the UK or move to the EU? Will our business have the same access as they have now? All of this is up for discussion and hence there is massive uncertainty.

These are the questions people ask and want to know.. not what is in what treaty.

 

[joG]

What the hell are you talking about? Who the hell cares about Lisbon, Maastricht.. and why the hell bring in Schengen? They are treaties that no one reads, just as no one reads the laws coming out Westminster or any other parliament..

Fact: We know that we have free access to move around Europe. We can take a job where ever we want. We can go on vacation where we want and we can settle where we want. We know we cant be discriminated against based on nationality. Those are the facts that everyone knows.. We also know that these basic principles wont change in the future as long as we stay in the EU. There is very little uncertainty.

Fact: If we leave the EU, then everything comes into question. Can we travel freely around Europe? We dont know. Can we settle anywhere in Europe? We dont know. The list of what we dont know is huge. Massive uncertainty.

Fact: Staying in the EU will keep the status quo for our companies and hence jobs.

Fact: Leaving the EU will put trade in question. Will our jobs stay in the UK or move to the EU? Will our business have the same access as they have now? All of this is up for discussion and hence there is massive uncertainty.

These are the questions people ask and want to know.. not what is in what treaty.

That is where you and so many go wrong. When I read the Maastricht Treaty and the Stability Pact my interpretation of the consequences was that it would cause cyclical crisis and within 20 but possibly in 15 years cause economic imbalances that could go as far as civil unrest in the streets. In the mean time it would bring about huge possibilities for regulatory arbitrage. On the latter we made a killing and the second was conspicuously right and earned me acknowledgement in circles that is very practical to have. The facit is that what appears to the ignorant to say "Who the hell cares..." and does not read the fundamental structuring legal documents for their sociological, politological, and economic well being is a loser.

Where you are right is in the danger that the EU political elite might react stupidly as they did, when they signed those treaties or in Greece and Ukraine.

 

[Delta18kdy]

well 100k people have signed a petition, and I will be sending mine back!

EU Leaflet Row: Petition Passes 100k Signatures

 

[PeteEU]

That is where you and so many go wrong.

No we dont..

When I read the Maastricht Treaty and the Stability Pact my interpretation of the consequences was that it would cause cyclical crisis and within 20 but possibly in 15 years cause economic imbalances that could go as far as civil unrest in the streets.

And you are one of the 0.000001% of the population of the EU that does read these treaties and any laws at all. Most other normal people are far more concerned if they have a job tomorrow or can feed their children. That you fail to realize this is kinda...

In the mean time it would bring about huge possibilities for regulatory arbitrage. On the latter we made a killing and the second was conspicuously right and earned me acknowledgement in circles that is very practical to have. The facit is that what appears to the ignorant to say "Who the hell cares..." and does not read the fundamental structuring legal documents for their sociological, politological, and economic well being is a loser.

Because most people dont understand or care about 99% of laws passed nationally, let alone outside your country. If it effects them directly then they will care.

Where you are right is in the danger that the EU political elite might react stupidly as they did, when they signed those treaties or in Greece and Ukraine.

Those political elites, are the politicians you elect at home.. you claim to have read the EU treaties, and yet you have no clue on how the EU, or even your own country works.. or so it seems. You make it sound like the EU unilaterally signs treaties with 3rd parties.. they dont, and never have or will.

 

[Camlon]

I hope you realise what you just said?

he did? Post #19

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/250752-9-million-bremain-leaflet-drop-2.html#post1065745308

Never said he never provide arguments. Just that he is not willing to have a proper argument. That attitude seem to have changed a little after I pointed it out.

Fact: We know that we have free access to move around Europe. We can take a job where ever we want. We can go on vacation where we want and we can settle where we want. We know we cant be discriminated against based on nationality. Those are the facts that everyone knows.. We also know that these basic principles wont change in the future as long as we stay in the EU. There is very little uncertainty.

Another fact is that you could do the same before Schengen. No country will stop British tourists, or prevent them from retiring in their countries. That makes no economic sense. Not only will they lose a lot of money, but they will have to deal with rouge local districts who don't enforce immigration laws, and people who overstay their visas.

What may change is how easy it is for British to move to another country, but thats not a terrible thing. British can't move much around Europe already, because they are constrained by language and high unemployment. The benefit will be that they can limit immigration to the UK, which will ease the labour market and the property market.

Fact: If we leave the EU, then everything comes into question. Can we travel freely around Europe? We dont know. Can we settle anywhere in Europe? We dont know. The list of what we dont know is huge. Massive uncertainty.

Not really, unless you think EU will try to punish the UK. If they do, then UK should leave regardless because why be part of a union who force their members to stay.

I expect EU to do what makes economic sense, and if that is the case, then very little will change if UK leaves the EU. UK is not going to get isolated, the biggest risk is no change at all. Meaning they leave the EU, but replace everything by treaties.

Fact: Staying in the EU will keep the status quo for our companies and hence jobs.

Fact is, the status quo is not working for Britain, that is why so many British want to leave the EU.

Fact: Leaving the EU will put trade in question. Will our jobs stay in the UK or move to the EU? Will our business have the same access as they have now? All of this is up for discussion and hence there is massive uncertainty.

Yes if EU try to isolate UK, then that will hit UK very hard, but that will also impact the EU while it is very fragile. It makes little economic sense to do that, and if they do it then it shows why UK should leave.

But most likely that won't happen, UK may lose access in a few markets, but overall most things will stay the same.

 

[joG]

No we dont..



And you are one of the 0.000001% of the population of the EU that does read these treaties and any laws at all. Most other normal people are far more concerned if they have a job tomorrow or can feed their children. That you fail to realize this is kinda...



Because most people dont understand or care about 99% of laws passed nationally, let alone outside your country. If it effects them directly then they will care.



Those political elites, are the politicians you elect at home.. you claim to have read the EU treaties, and yet you have no clue on how the EU, or even your own country works.. or so it seems. You make it sound like the EU unilaterally signs treaties with 3rd parties.. they dont, and never have or will.

I didn't say that you and all those people that choose not to read the most fundamental laws know them or that they understand their consequences. But many of them notice that the consequences are not those their elites has said and that they are the opposite in an increasing number of existential cases. They see they have been lied to and no longer trust the political elites, the EU and more disturbingly they are beginning to doubt the legitimacy of their own states and governments.

 

[PeteEU]

I didn't say that you and all those people that choose not to read the most fundamental laws know them or that they understand their consequences. But many of them notice that the consequences are not those their elites has said and that they are the opposite in an increasing number of existential cases. They see they have been lied to and no longer trust the political elites, the EU and more disturbingly they are beginning to doubt the legitimacy of their own states and governments.

Okay,... Like what?

 

[joG]

Okay,... Like what?

Peace and prosperity for all seem suspiciously populist after the results for different populations of the Euro crisis, the debt crisises, the Ukrainian war, the situation in Syria and the breakdown of Schengen. But I guess you are not personally hurt.

 

[Sweden]

I said facts.. not arguments.

Fact.. we know what we have now. We have influence on what we can have in the future.
Fact.. Leaving the EU, we do not know what we will have in the future and our influence set that future is highly limited.

Agree or not?

Fact.. We know what the UK had before the EU existed. There are even names for it 'Independence', 'Freedom, 'Self Government'.

 

[PeteEU]

Another fact is that you could do the same before Schengen.

Yes and why could you do that? Because there was bi-lateral agreements between countries. Those agreements were all put in one pot and Schengen came out of it. Fact is, as a Dane I could travel to Sweden any time I wanted without my passport and could do that for decades before the EU even existed. Does not change the fact that, this right I had as a Dane, now also means that you as a Brit dont have to ask for a visa to go to Spain or elsewhere. Visa free travel is fully accepted today, but go back to before the 1990s.. not so much. Funny how people forget.

No country will stop British tourists, or prevent them from retiring in their countries.

Why not? Before the EU got involved, there were special rules for non Spanish in Spain on owning property, inheritance and so on. Want to go back to those days? Who got rid of these rules.. oh yea the EU.

That makes no economic sense. Not only will they lose a lot of money, but they will have to deal with rouge local districts who don't enforce immigration laws, and people who overstay their visas.

It makes no economic sense for the Brexit to even exist, and yet they do.

What may change is how easy it is for British to move to another country, but thats not a terrible thing. British can't move much around Europe already, because they are constrained by language and high unemployment. The benefit will be that they can limit immigration to the UK, which will ease the labour market and the property market.

What a load of horse****. Brits can move around wherever they want and settle where ever they want. Language aint a constraint, just a small issue. And your argument for limiting immigration to the UK.. just do it then.. Stop all those Nigerians and Indians from entering the Uk.. You can cut the yearly immigration in half by doing that! And how on earth is it the fault of immigrants that the UK property laws are beyond idiotic and cause a housing shortage? The UK government could easily fix your property market, but it wont because of the wealthy rich who earn billions on having this handicapped property market.. (oh and it aint only a British problem btw)

Not really, unless you think EU will try to punish the UK. If they do, then UK should leave regardless because why be part of a union who force their members to stay.

No.. the EU will not "punish" the UK. But they will demand freedom of movement of people and goods, which we have now.. in any negotiation between the UK and the EU. So what is the freaking point of leaving the EU if you still have to follow the same rules? You will also have to pay into the EU budget btw.. why is it the Brexit side conveniently forgets to mention this when touting the deals the Swiss and Norwegians have?

I expect EU to do what makes economic sense, and if that is the case, then very little will change if UK leaves the EU. UK is not going to get isolated, the biggest risk is no change at all. Meaning they leave the EU, but replace everything by treaties.

God you are beyond naive if you think it is that easy. Not only do those treaties have to be negotiated and that will take time, but in the mean time the uncertainty will cause havoc on the UK economy. Hell it is already doing so. Company after company is coming out saying that a Brexit will cause job loses. None of them are saying it will give more jobs.. why is that? Even the freaking bankers are saying they will move thousands of jobs to the EU if the UK leaves..

Fact is, the status quo is not working for Britain, that is why so many British want to leave the EU.

Oh how is it not working for Britain.. please for the love of god as a Brexit guy, bring us some actual facts why it is not working.. give us examples!

Yes if EU try to isolate UK, then that will hit UK very hard, but that will also impact the EU while it is very fragile. It makes little economic sense to do that, and if they do it then it shows why UK should leave.

For the love of god, listen to yourself. You are in a fantasy world where you think the UK actually matters in the grand scale of things. The UK needs the EU far far far more than the EU needs the UK. The country with most at risk is Germany, but it is still peanuts financially compared to the amount of exports the UK does to the EU.. go look it up.. the numbers are out there.

But most likely that won't happen, UK may lose access in a few markets, but overall most things will stay the same.

In other words, you have no clue on what will happen and are hoping for the best case solution..

 

[PeteEU]

Peace and prosperity for all seem suspiciously populist after the results for different populations of the Euro crisis, the debt crisises, the Ukrainian war, the situation in Syria and the breakdown of Schengen. But I guess you are not personally hurt.

Okay lets take one at a time..

Peace and prosperity for all seem suspiciously populist after the results for different populations of the Euro crisis

What on earth do you even mean by this? The so called Euro crisis was a banking crisis, brought on by the American sub-prime crash. Yes it would have been much better if the current safe-guards were in place to save failing (major) banks, but at least the good thing that came out of the crisis is that those safe-guards were put in place and are being implemented.

And as for prosperity.. are you saying that Europeans are poorer now than say 20 years ago?

the debt crisises

So Greece.. so it is the fault of the EU, that Greece lied to the world.. does that mean it is the fault of the police when they fail to see crime and stop it?

the Ukrainian war

Hate to break it to you.. but no one cares about Ukraine. And the EU involvement was window dressing and a proxy for NATO. Regardless.. people do not care. There has been fighting going on for months, and the /shrug is shown in the media and population in general. Hell even the EU dont care much anymore and are trying to distance themselves from Kiev to avoid being linked with neo-Nazis that are part of the government... something that ironically Putin pointed out years ago.. but hey! And not I dont support the thug Putin in his border war.

the situation in Syria

So now it is the fault of the EU for the situation in Syria?!?!?!?! At worst it is the fault of France and Britain for creating the state of Syria in the first place..

the breakdown of Schengen

Wait what.. it is now the EUs fault too that terror and civil war rages on in the Middle East??!?!?! Is there nothing you cant blame the EU for? How about this blister I got yesterday hiking... can we blame that on the EU as well?

And funny if Schengen is broken down, then why are there people moving between countries in Europe with next to no border controls? Guess most nations missed the memo on it breaking down eh? Just had some British friends come to the Costa Del Sol, and they did not have to apply for visa or get strip searched on entering Spain.. all they had to show was their passport.. My cousin is coming in a week, and she did not have to pre-apply for permission or do paperwork to get to Spain. Strange if Schengen is broken down... no?

 

[Camlon]

Yes and why could you do that? Because there was bi-lateral agreements between countries.

First off the most likely scenario is that UK won't even leave Schengen, Switzerland and Norway is part of Schengen.

But if they do leave, then some bi-lateral agreement will be negotiated. UK will not leave Schengen without a replacement.

Why not? Before the EU got involved, there were special rules for non Spanish in Spain on owning property, inheritance and so on. Want to go back to those days? Who got rid of these rules.. oh yea the EU.

Yes, I want to go back to those days. Thats how the rest of the world is operating, and I like it.

What a load of horse****. Brits can move around wherever they want and settle where ever they want. Language aint a constraint, just a small issue. And your argument for limiting immigration to the UK.. just do it then.. Stop all those Nigerians and Indians from entering the Uk.. You can cut the yearly immigration in half by doing that! And how on earth is it the fault of immigrants that the UK property laws are beyond idiotic and cause a housing shortage? The UK government could easily fix your property market, but it wont because of the wealthy rich who earn billions on having this handicapped property market.. (oh and it aint only a British problem btw)

Not really unless you are highly qualified. Lets say you are a teacher in England, you can't just pick a country in the EU and get a job there. Its hard enough to get a job in Britain.

And I don't disagree a lot of British policies are terrible, but a lot of EU policy is even worse.

No.. the EU will not "punish" the UK. But they will demand freedom of movement of people and goods, which we have now.. in any negotiation between the UK and the EU. So what is the freaking point of leaving the EU if you still have to follow the same rules? You will also have to pay into the EU budget btw.. why is it the Brexit side conveniently forgets to mention this when touting the deals the Swiss and Norwegians have?

Thats the important question, but we can't really have a proper argument about that before the remain voters stop pretending armageddon will happen if UK leave. The biggest risk of leaving the EU is that everything stay the same, but UK lose representation.

God you are beyond naive if you think it is that easy. Not only do those treaties have to be negotiated and that will take time, but in the mean time the uncertainty will cause havoc on the UK economy. Hell it is already doing so. Company after company is coming out saying that a Brexit will cause job loses. None of them are saying it will give more jobs.. why is that? Even the freaking bankers are saying they will move thousands of jobs to the EU if the UK leaves..

Actually it is that easy, not naive but realistic. The default option after UK leave is EFTA, so nothing needs to be negotiated and everything will be like before. Then negotiations will happen in the background, and maybe some results will happen, maybe not.

Oh how is it not working for Britain.. please for the love of god as a Brexit guy, bring us some actual facts why it is not working.. give us examples!

Not really a brexit guy, because I am not british. But I don't like the current form of EU, and I can tell you why. EU lacks democracy, handled the financial crisis terribly, caused a bank crisis in 2012, helped Greece and Cyrpus to destroy themselves, always try to get more and more power, and is now completely failing on migration.

I don't just want UK to leave, I want every country to leave. Then I want to replace the EU.

For the love of god, listen to yourself. You are in a fantasy world where you think the UK actually matters in the grand scale of things. The UK needs the EU far far far more than the EU needs the UK. The country with most at risk is Germany, but it is still peanuts financially compared to the amount of exports the UK does to the EU.. go look it up.. the numbers are out there.

No, you are in a fantasy world, because you forget how interlinked our economies are. UK is 16% of EUs GDP, you can't cut off 16% of your GDP without consequences, especially when EU is that fragile. Even Greece could impact EU, and they are 1% of EUs GDP.

In other words, you have no clue on what will happen and are hoping for the best case solution..

I may not know what will happen, but I certainly know what won't happen. UK will not get isolated, because it makes no economic sense for EU to do so. As I said, most likely very little will change. The best case scenario in my opinion is that Schengen is replaced by a bilateral treaty, but more likely Schengen will stay.

 

[Andalublue]

First off the most likely scenario is that UK won't even leave Schengen, Switzerland and Norway is part of Schengen.

But if they do leave, then some bi-lateral agreement will be negotiated. UK will not leave Schengen without a replacement.

Tell us when you think the UK signed up to the Schengen treaty. Just curious.

 

[Camlon]

Tell us when you think the UK signed up to the Schengen treaty. Just curious.

Sorry, I meant "schengen".

 

[Andalublue]

Sorry, I meant "schengen".

You meant "schengen", not Schengen? Care to explain the difference?

 

[Camlon]

You meant "schengen", not Schengen? Care to explain the difference?

When I said Schengen, I was actually talking about UKs version of Schengen. I sometimes forget to change my language while talking about the UK, because the two agreements are so similar. Even the border controls are not unique anymore.

 

[Chagos]

When I said Schengen, I was actually talking about UKs version of Schengen. I sometimes forget to change my language while talking about the UK, because the two agreements are so similar. Even the border controls are not unique anymore.

I dunno about the others but this has certainly added to MY confusion.

What, pray tell, is the UK version of Schengen, capital spelling or whichever?

 

[Camlon]

I dunno about the others but this has certainly added to MY confusion.

What, pray tell, is the UK version of Schengen, capital spelling or whichever?

Stop lying, you weren't confused, and you know exactly what I meant.

But you don't actually have any proper arguments, so you decide to focus on irrelevant stuff.

 

[PeteEU]

First off the most likely scenario is that UK won't even leave Schengen, Switzerland and Norway is part of Schengen.

But if they do leave, then some bi-lateral agreement will be negotiated. UK will not leave Schengen without a replacement.

So no change at all.. then what is the problem or point of leaving the EU on this issue? Other than creating more red tape for the British.

Yes, I want to go back to those days. Thats how the rest of the world is operating, and I like it.

So you have no problem paying extra tourist tax, or different tax rates depending on where you come from or massive inheritance tax just because you are British? In other words, you got no problems with being discriminated against?

Not really unless you are highly qualified. Lets say you are a teacher in England, you can't just pick a country in the EU and get a job there. Its hard enough to get a job in Britain.

Seriously you had to pick that job? How about a doctor, nurse, engineer, labour and so on..

And I don't disagree a lot of British policies are terrible, but a lot of EU policy is even worse.

Examples of "worse EU policy" please.

Thats the important question, but we can't really have a proper argument about that before the remain voters stop pretending armageddon will happen if UK leave. The biggest risk of leaving the EU is that everything stay the same, but UK lose representation.

Eh? That is the biggest risk.. in what twilight zone? The biggest risk is that the UK does not get access to the EU at all. That is the biggest risk, granted it is not realistic.

Actually it is that easy, not naive but realistic. The default option after UK leave is EFTA, so nothing needs to be negotiated and everything will be like before.

And there you go being naive again. You expect the EU to accept EFTA membership for the UK? Based on what?

 

[PeteEU]

Not really a brexit guy, because I am not british. But I don't like the current form of EU, and I can tell you why. EU lacks democracy,

It is far more democratic that the UK ironically.

handled the financial crisis terribly,

And you are saying that someone handled it well?

caused a bank crisis in 2012

So the EU forced the banks to lend money out and buy crappy US derivatives that were loaded with bad sub-prime debt?

helped Greece and Cyrpus to destroy themselves

So it was the fault of the EU that Greece lied? And have you been following the news on that lately? It seems the real bad party in this was in fact the IMF...

As for Cyprus.. Cyprus destroyed it self by allowing the banking system to be used as a money laundering center by the Russians.

always try to get more and more power,

Ahh this claim.. prove it. Prove that it is the EU that is trying to get more and more power.

and is now completely failing on migration.

Yes you would blame the EU for failing on migration and totally ignore the facts... that migration is the job of individual member states, not the EU...

I don't just want UK to leave, I want every country to leave. Then I want to replace the EU.

So you want an organisation that has freedom of movement on people and goods, and a common market. Do you want it to cooperate on various issues like migration?

No, you are in a fantasy world, because you forget how interlinked our economies are. UK is 16% of EUs GDP, you can't cut off 16% of your GDP without consequences, especially when EU is that fragile. Even Greece could impact EU, and they are 1% of EUs GDP.

LOL.. first off the Greek impact was purely speculator driven and never based on reality or fact. In the end the impact was non existent.

Secondly, yes the UK is 16% of EU GDP, but that is not how you measure the impact. You measure it on trade.....the UK exports for around 11 billion a month. That is 132 billion a year.. The UK imports for more than it exports.. 19.5 billion a month and that is 234 billion. Now based on that it looks like the UK has the EU by the balls so to say.. but does it? The trick here is that the EU is not a single country, but 27. The biggest export market for the UK is Germany.. at around 2.8 billion a month.. which is 33.6 billion a year.

So we have the UK that is dependent on 132 billion on the EU, and the country with the biggest part of the UK exports is Germany with 34 billion. So again, who has most to lose?

I may not know what will happen, but I certainly know what won't happen. UK will not get isolated, because it makes no economic sense for EU to do so. As I said, most likely very little will change. The best case scenario in my opinion is that Schengen is replaced by a bilateral treaty, but more likely Schengen will stay.

So you want to leave the EU, still accept EU migrants and still pay into the EU budget... so what exactly is the point of leaving? Not having any influence at all over your affairs with Europe?

 

[Chagos]

Stop lying, you weren't confused, and you know exactly what I meant.

But you don't actually have any proper arguments, so you decide to focus on irrelevant stuff.

WTH is the matter with you?

WHAT IS THE UK VERSION OF SCHENGEN?

Kindly ungarble the otherwise totally nonsensical post that I referred to.

 

[joG]

Okay lets take one at a time..



What on earth do you even mean by this? The so called Euro crisis was a banking crisis, brought on by the American sub-prime crash. Yes it would have been much better if the current safe-guards were in place to save failing (major) banks, but at least the good thing that came out of the crisis is that those safe-guards were put in place and are being implemented.

And as for prosperity.. are you saying that Europeans are poorer now than say 20 years ago?

So Greece.. so it is the fault of the EU, that Greece lied to the world.. does that mean it is the fault of the police when they fail to see crime and stop it?

Hate to break it to you.. but no one cares about Ukraine. And the EU involvement was window dressing and a proxy for NATO. Regardless.. people do not care. There has been fighting going on for months, and the /shrug is shown in the media and population in general. Hell even the EU dont care much anymore and are trying to distance themselves from Kiev to avoid being linked with neo-Nazis that are part of the government... something that ironically Putin pointed out years ago.. but hey! And not I dont support the thug Putin in his border war.



So now it is the fault of the EU for the situation in Syria?!?!?!?! At worst it is the fault of France and Britain for creating the state of Syria in the first place..



Wait what.. it is now the EUs fault too that terror and civil war rages on in the Middle East??!?!?! Is there nothing you cant blame the EU for? How about this blister I got yesterday hiking... can we blame that on the EU as well?

And funny if Schengen is broken down, then why are there people moving between countries in Europe with next to no border controls? Guess most nations missed the memo on it breaking down eh? Just had some British friends come to the Costa Del Sol, and they did not have to apply for visa or get strip searched on entering Spain.. all they had to show was their passport.. My cousin is coming in a week, and she did not have to pre-apply for permission or do paperwork to get to Spain. Strange if Schengen is broken down... no?

That is a wonderful demonstration of the world according to Brussels and why the EU has been hemorrhaging legitimacy in recent times. What far out propaganda.